Trying to hard to believe

[lightgigantic]

Yes. We're trying to free them from the chains of religion. Religion always holds people back so they can't achieve their full potential--this is as true of a nation as of an individual.

As a quick glance at the news will remind you, most of the conflicts in the world right now are religion-based.

actually a quick glance shows that practically all of the conflicts of all of the time of the world are about resource allocation.

Pining for secondary issues (such as race, creed, religion etc) is simply the business of people who want to push forward their cause of bigotry (regardless whether they are atheist or theist) for their own self centred, egotistical reasons .

 

[Balerion]

actually a quick glance shows that practically all of the conflicts of all of the time of the world are about resource allocation.

That's completely inaccurate. But then, you did say you only gave it a quick glance, so... :shrug:

Pining for secondary issues (such as race, creed, religion etc) is simply the business of people who want to push forward their cause of bigotry (regardless whether they are atheist or theist) for their own self centred, egotistical reasons .

Race and religion are hardly secondary issues in some conflicts.

 

[wynn]

actually a quick glance shows that practically all of the conflicts of all of the time of the world are about resource allocation.

Pining for secondary issues (such as race, creed, religion etc) is simply the business of people who want to push forward their cause of bigotry (regardless whether they are atheist or theist) for their own self centred, egotistical reasons .

There is a more contextual point to be made here, and that is that religion, as long as it is practiced by people who try to live from the work of their hands, has to provide some explanation and justification for the competition among people.

Like I said in the other thread, as long as resources (water, fuel, food, land etc.) are scarce, there will be a struggle for survival, there will be competition amond living beings and conflict of interests that will occasionally go from mental or verbal hostility to physical hostility.
And as things stand, resources have been scarce, are scarce, and will continue to be so.

So people (whether they consider themselves theists or not, whether they consider themselves religious or not) who start off from the premise that life on earth can be peaceful and harmonius, from now on forever, are simply operating out of a mistaken notion.

The only people who are at least theoretically able to afford total non-violence, total non-aggresion, may be mendicant monastics. Everyone else is in the meat grinder that is material existence and is going around with it, facing the predicament of having to eat or be eaten.


This is an unpalatable point, and typically, people in positions of authority don't like to acknowledge it; and when they do, and spell it out, it sounds like Nazism or religious fundamentalism.

 

[wynn]

Race and religion are hardly secondary issues in some conflicts.

And without religion, everything would be fine? There would be infinite resources that everyone could obtain easily, so there would be no competition, no conflict?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Fraggle Rocker,

I understand that, Frag. I was demonstrating to Jan the ludicrousness of his reasoning.

A futile endeavor.

I agree, he should have some idea of what he's talking about before discussing with an adult. Good call Frag!

It's an instinct for birds to fly toward light. As I've noted elsewhere, Jung's work indicates that belief in the supernatural is an instinct for humans, so Jan is merely obeying his instinct.

You really believe this shit, don't you?

But with our singularly massive forebrains, we have a much greater ability to override instinctive behavior with reasoned and learned behavior.

Birds (except the few nocturnal species) cannot safely ignore or lose their instinct. Many humans can, but perhaps Jan is not one of them.

I'm not human, I'm a saturian.

No. My point is that you're making zero headway so it would be sensible to put some effort into finding a different direction to come at him from.

In other words Balerion, I'm toying with you like a fat cat toys with a mouse.

Because that's not the definition you always use.

Nonsense. Theism is belief in God, nothing more nothing less, that's what I've always used, and that's what I'm using now.

And you have yet to explain why the insertion of "existence" changes the definition. It is rhetoric, not substance.

Oh! So dictionary.com doesn't always win? At least when it comes to you guys.
I'm afraid there's nothing one can say to another who shifts goalposts as if it's alright for him to do so. But I will leave you with an explanation, and you can do with it what you like.

Do you remember my definition of ''gods''?
G(g)ods are classified as material beings. ''God'' isn't.
Existence pertains to matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence

Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of being able to put all supernaturalists on IGNORE out in the carbon world. Every couple of generations they go on a rampage of war with their neighbors, or with people on the other side of the planet, or even with some of their own people who disagree about minutiae that the rest of us can't even understand.

''Can't understand'' with regard to God, theism, spirituality, and even religion, is quite right, but still you act as though you have it sown up.
I would rather take my chances with irreligious organisations than two of the worlds most famous atheists who demonstrated the art of cold-blooded, mass murder on an unprecedented scale in a such a short space of time. I reckon they shifted a goalpost or two, don't you?

By starting the majority of this planet's wars, which occasionally put people I love and even me personally at risk (and in any case I love civilization and hate to see it torn down by people who prefer the simpler philosophy of the Stone Age when gods were accepted as real), they make themselves my enemies. One must always pay attention to one's enemies, no matter how revolting it might be to get inside their heads.

Yes. We can't even smoke a cigarette because of religious wars that occur daily on our very doorstep.
Hang on! There's some Amish terrorists planting a bomb under my car.....

I'll think about it. But I hate to give even the illusion of respect to militant supernaturalists--as opposed to the average American churchgoer who doesn't put much thought into that aspect of his church.

Please do.
Can you let me know what you decide.

I can't speak for James but that did not seem like the best example. Instead, how about the people who believe that Elvis is not dead? I think that for at least some of them that is a genuine belief.

You're right, it's shite example.
Here, you grapple with the reasoning, I've absolutely no interest in it.

jan.

 

[jayleew]

I don't understand. How did these people shatter something that you KNEW to be God?

As impossible as it sounds, imagine if at some point you questioned your belief in God. It's kind of like having the rug pulled from under you. You think to yourself that what you thought was real may not be. You question not only the existence, but also if you believed to begin with. These are cracks that life experience can cause.

At that point you can pick up the pieces and stand on faith/belief, or you can change/realize your true belief, however you want to look at it.

It wasn't delusion. We all go through phases in our life. In the sixties people were all like.. ''yeah man''...''peace''...''let's replace all guns with flowers man'', then thirty years later these people become corporate robots.
Some people aren't meant to believe in God, because they desire to be independent. They want to experience the ultimate sensual experiences, they want power, they want to lord it. They choose to forget God.

If some people aren't meant to believe in God, then it is even more cruel than I realized. Because it is written "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:18.

How cruel to expect belief from people that cannot.

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

As impossible as it sounds, imagine if at some point you questioned your belief in God.

This is the point I've been making to you from the begining - Did you really believe in God?

It's kind of like having the rug pulled from under you. You think to yourself that what you thought was real may not be. You question not only the existence, but also if you believed to begin with. These are cracks that life experience can cause.

It works in the opposite way also.

At that point you can pick up the pieces and stand on faith/belief, or you can change/realize your true belief, however you want to look at it.

Realising your ''true belief'' (not one of choice) is the operative phrase here. A theist's position is different in that ''belief'' is a part of one's expression and perception, and grows (stagnates even dwindle) according to them.

You can become a theist, or a theist can become an atheist but it involves very real things which become integrated into perception and expression which are the things that can and do change our mindset.

If an actor does a bang up job of portraying a theist, through communicating with theists, and watching them, picking up certain ways, it doesn't mean they themselves are theists even though we can believe them to be. Everything is real.

If some people aren't meant to believe in God, then it is even more cruel than I realized. Because it is written "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:18.

How cruel to expect belief from people that cannot.

It's all to do with the desire of the person (living entity to be more precise). God gives us what we want, but what we want isn't always what we need, or what is good for our essential selves (spirit-soul).

Those of us who live fairly oppulent lives have the ability to use as much electricity as we wish until we can't afford to pay the bills, then all of a sudden things take a turn for the worse. As living entities, some of us take full advantage of this material nature, trying to enjoy it as much as we can, but we don't realise that there is a cost for everything we do, say, and think. We basically incur debt which we are required to pay back (natures way), and as such we bind ourselves to this nature incurring more debt (through ignorance of our position), meaning we become locked in a cycle of repeated birth and death (as you sow, so shall you reap).

God gives us the opportunity to relinquish our debts through various means, but ultimately it is up to us to take up His offer, because our essential selves are a part and parcel of Him, and as such the freedom to choose is ours, as it is His.

jan.

 

[Balerion]

In other words Balerion, I'm toying with you like a fat cat toys with a mouse.

That's actually a pretty apt simile. Your wit, like the obese feline, is slow and easily exhausted.

 

[jayleew]

FYI - I'm no longer trying to believe. I don't want to believe in the boogey man, which God clearly is. I don't know why I dismissed God's murderous actions before. I only saw the righteousness of the faithful in the face of God's ways. If God shows itself and says that the Bible is mistaken I will listen. Otherwise, it is the most palatable decision to make that God does not exist and not worth believing in anyway.

 

[Jan Ardena]

For my information?

Jan.

 

[jayleew]

For my information?

Jan.

Yours and everyone's. I started the thread with the issue. Just updating everyone to say my issue is solved.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Good for you.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

That's actually a pretty apt simile. Your wit, like the obese feline, is slow and easily exhausted.

Fat, obese, I guess you choose not to see differences, as and when it suits you. Eh!

Jan.

 

[Balerion]

Fat, obese, I guess you choose not to see differences, as and when it suits you. Eh!

Jan.

You got burned. Deal with it.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Race and religion are hardly secondary issues in some conflicts.

It's been asserted that the defining issue in the post-Perestroika world is the demand for self-determination of the one fourth of the world's population who are Muslims. Islam certainly had its glory years, but since the Industrial Revolution the Muslim world has been on the defensive against Christian Europe and now a relatively irreligious (by Islamic standards) hegemony of Europe, China, Japan, the Western Hemisphere and the Antipodes.

You really believe this shit, don't you?

If we do nothing but make jokes about each other's positions, this discussion will become pointless. Jung studied the same human behavior that your prophets studied. The difference was that he used science and came up with a paradigm that doesn't require an adult to remain in the same state of mind that allowed him to believe in Santa Claus.

Nonsense. Theism is belief in God, nothing more nothing less, that's what I've always used, and that's what I'm using now.

But you keep waffling about what "belief in God" means.

So dictionary.com doesn't always win? At least when it comes to you guys.

The dictionary also has a more expansive definition of "believe." I'm not going to scroll to that website and quote it verbatim, but essentially in addition to believing in the existence of something/someone, one can also "believe" in its ability, honor, etc. So belief in God could also mean belief in God's intention to treat humans kindly (at least the ones who follow his religions), or belief in his ability to perform the feats necessary for that treatment, etc. But all of these subsidiary "beliefs" hinge on belief in his existence. If God does not exist, he can hardly perform miracles or reward us for being kind to our neighbors.

When I say "I believe in Jerry Brown" (sorry, that's a totally lame example but it seems that all the people I really believed in are dead) of course I mean that I believe in his ability to help California recover (and I'm not sure I do but this is just for the sake of the example) and his honorable intention to do so. But there is no controversy over his existence. No one is going to ask me why I believe he exists. This is not true of God.

So I still don't understand how the phrase "belief in God" could possibly not automatically include belief in his existence. And you still have not answered that question.

Existence pertains to matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence

Wikipedia is not the best authority when you delve into the arcana of a discipline. We're talking about the nature of the universe here, not the contents of your garage. Energy also exists, duh? So do religions and schools of thought and alliances and progress.

I would rather take my chances with irreligious organisations than two of the worlds most famous atheists who demonstrated the art of cold-blooded, mass murder on an unprecedented scale in a such a short space of time.

Hitler could not have prevailed without the support of European Christendom, which for a millennium included antisemitism as one of its defining characteristics. The word "holocaust" was coined long before Hitler, because Christians were destroying Jewish villages long before they had gas chambers and machine guns to make the cleansing more efficient.

As for Stalin, I'll forgive you for not knowing that communism is an offshoot of Christianity. Despite a surname that is most common among Jewish families in the USA, Karl Marx was a Christian. His slogan, "To each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities," is an elaboration of a line from the Book of Acts. I mean come on now, how many self-respecting Hindus or Confucians would take an economic system seriously in which what a man takes from civilization does not have to correlate with what he gives back? The result would be an implosion of the national economy, once they dissipated the leftover surplus from the preceeding government and the surplus they appropriated by annexing their neighbors. Oh wait a minute, that's what actually happened!

Yes. We can't even smoke a cigarette because of religious wars that occur daily on our very doorstep.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. But our need for constant vigilance to avoid reversals of progress regarding gay rights and abortion is entirely due to the still-strong influence of the phallocratic Abrahamic religions in American politics.

 

[Balerion]

It's been asserted that the defining issue in the post-Perestroika world is the demand for self-determination of the one fourth of the world's population who are Muslims. Islam certainly had its glory years, but since the Industrial Revolution the Muslim world has been on the defensive against Christian Europe and now a relatively irreligious (by Islamic standards) hegemony of Europe, China, Japan, the Western Hemisphere and the Antipodes.

I see it as a self-inflicted wound. Islam was at one point roughly a thousand years ago the scientific and cultural center of the world. I mean, look at the names of the stars. They're all Arabic! Even our numerals are Arabic. We owe so much to Islam during its golden age, but al-Ghazali came in ruined it all by making education the work of Satan, a mentality that is still relevant in many Islamic cultures. In a way, he's like Islam's version of Jesus. His influence completely changed the religion, and the effects are still apparent today. If there's any difference, it's that al-Ghazali's views are perhaps more closely held by Muslims than Jesus' are by Christians. (Did today's election of the Pope resemble Jesus' philosophy at all?)

 

[lightgigantic]

It's been asserted that the defining issue in the post-Perestroika world is the demand for self-determination of the one fourth of the world's population who are Muslims. Islam certainly had its glory years, but since the Industrial Revolution the Muslim world has been on the defensive against Christian Europe and now a relatively irreligious (by Islamic standards) hegemony of Europe, China, Japan, the Western Hemisphere and the Antipodes.

yet for some funny reason, "islamic turmoil" is relegated to or catalyzed by those countries that have had extensive foreign fiddling done within their borders on account of their geographic proximity to natural resources ....

 

[Balerion]

yet for some funny reason, "islamic turmoil" is relegated to or catalyzed by those countries that have had extensive foreign fiddling done within their borders on account of their geographic proximity to natural resources ....

That must explain all the Islamic turmoil in Europe.

 

[lightgigantic]

That must explain all the Islamic turmoil in Europe.

it certainly does

 

[Balerion]

it certainly does

Really? So the turmoil in the UK is because of foreign fiddling done with its borders on account of their geographic proximity to natural resources?