Translation & Muslims

What does Sura 9 discuss?

 

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So, if the angel Gabriel sent a message to Muhammad ONLY in Arabic, for a religion that is supposed to be spread over the earth, why was it not received in other languages?

 

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Islam is not a new religion. Muhammed merely reiterated what has been known elsewhere in many other languages for thousands of years. For anyone to become a Muslim (ie a submitter to the right way, or to God) he has only to go back to the beginning of his own religion.

Recall the shahada does not say, I believe in the Arabic Quran, only that I believe in God and in the message of Muhammed. The message of Muhammed was that all prophets are from God.

 

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You didn't answer the question.

 

I did.

The Quran is a recital which hints at what was given before. It states over and over that there have been previous messages and messengers, and that knowledge is the first step to salvation. That all prophets are from God and we should not discriminate between the prophets. Pluralism and syncretism are built into its verses.

Muhammed never claimed to devise a fresh approach but a back to basics approach. He wanted people to let go of the frills, the bells and whistles and reduce religious involvement to its common denominator. Faith, charity and tolerance.

The very first revelation to Muhammed was " Iqra, bi'ismi Rabbi" or "Read! in the name of the Lord".

The Quran (from Qiraat, the recitation) is a recital. So what should Muhammed read?

 

Nope, you still didn't answer the question. And what you did say is bs because many of the tenets of Islam have nothing to do with the other cults.

So, answer the question, please.

 

Mohammed was Arab, the revelation was given to him, he chose to spread the message. His language was Arabic.

 

Sam, you need not propagandize if you don't know the answer. Let someone with some knowledge of Islam answer instead.

 

I don't see the difficulty.

If I want to declare that I am a follower of Voltaire, for example, how valid would I be as a follower if I only read his message in translation?

The messenger is limited by his ability to spread the message, which may be language, location or freedom.

 

In general I would say God revealed things to individuals. Individuals then wrote it down in their own language. The bible is considered for example, to be the “inspired” word of God. The Koran on the other hand, is believed to be the EXACT word of Allah, not inspired.

Christianity has no issue with translations. True, translations can cause subtle differences in meaning. But you can get Bibles that include all possible variants on meanings. The Net Bible is excellent in this regard, though it has so many footnotes it’s a bit hard to read.

Islam is the only religion that claims it can never be fully understood except in the original language. Which does indeed cause a problem if Allah’s word was for the whole world.

I can think of two theories why this is. First, this gives all power of meaning to the Imams who describe the meanings in their Mosques. Second, it provides a convenient excuse when people see the violence and bigotry in the Koran, Muslims claim they are simply not understanding the true meaning. This is why I provided an example of 2 translations and Muslim cleric commentary to show this is not actually true.

You care correct in your perception S.A.M. is evading the question. His answer seems to be that the word of Allah is simply an extension of the Old and New Testament. However in my first post on this, #11, what Allah teaches is fundamentally the opposite of what Christianity says, and so different from the Old Testament that Muslims must claim the Torah was completely rewritten to hide the original meaning.

 

I have a Jewish friend who claims that the Quran is closer to the Torah than the Bible.

And by the Bible do you mean Jesus's Gospel or Paul's writings? Or do you mean the Nicaean Council agreements?

Because the Bible is many other things besides the inspired word of God. And that is the problem with translations.

Did the Jews translate the Torah? I have no knowledge about this, but from what I have heard in the Middle East, Muslims do not consider Jews to have altered the religion, and in fact, all Jewish religious stuff is kosher for us.

 

Semantics is killing religion.

 

S.A.M. By quoting 5:68 you are trying to say the Qur’an respects, and is derived from, the Torah and the Gospels. But you know that mainstream Islamic belief is that the Torah and Gospels were corrupted by early Jewish and Christian writers.

Islam believes the Torah and Gospels confirm the prophesy of Muhammad. They of course, do not, not in the least. Therefore those books must be corrupted and indeed we see this in the Qur’an.

Sura 3:3 proclaims that the Qur’an now revealed to Muhammad confirms what was written in the Torah and the Gospel. But:

003.024 This because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days": For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion.

Confirms the belief the Torah was a forgery. This is further confirmed by respected Imam Asad who emphasizes that :

“it is to be borne in mind that the Gospel frequently mentioned in the Qur’an is not identical with what is known today as the Four Gospels, but refers to an original, since lost, revelation bestowed upon Jesus and known to his contemporaries under its Greek name of Evangelion (‘Good Tiding’), on which the Arabicized form Injil is based. It was probably the source from which the Synoptic Gospels derived much of their material and some of the teachings attributed to Jesus. The fact of its having been lost and forgotten is alluded to in the Qur’an in 5:14.”

The quote above can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/masad02/003

So let’s look at 5:14:

514. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

Again we see the belief the Gospels as Christians know them are not at all what Muslims believe. You quoted Sura 5:68, But continuing, 5:72 denies the divinity of Jesus – a key Christian belief. 5:73 denies the concept of the Trinity. Then in 5:78 the Jews are cursed by David and Jesus for their disobedience.

So as everyone can see clearly, your verse 5:68 is not nearly so ecumenically generous as a simple translation would make it appear. This is too short a space to list all of the evidence. Should I go on?

S.A.M., Islam must confront the reality of their beliefs instead of trying to hide them and blame critics as Islamophobes, if we are ever to see peace.

 

Sam, I'm really not interested in your apologist bs. Go away.

 

A contradiction. The message of the angel of Gabriel would have been told in every language, if such a message were legitimate. Claiming that a religion is language ONLY oriented is like saying the extinction of the dinosaurs was caused by a comet and that only people in North America should know it because that's where the comet landed.

Agreed.

Part and parcel of Sam's posting style, to never actually answer a question, but instead to propagandize her cult at every turn.

 

Hmm according to your statements "mainstream Muslims" are following the "reality" of their "beliefs" as espoused in the snippets from various suras you have provided.

I'm sure if I read any book by randomly opening a page and reading a line here and there, I could write a review on it.

So what does Sura 9 discuss? Surely since you provided a line from it, you know what the sura is about? There are over a hundred other ayats in there.

 

SAM, SAM, SAM, I have cross-referenced multiple related Ayats from other Suras and also referenced Muslim scholarly opinion to derive a translation of 5:68. As everyone can see, there is nothing random about it. If you believe I am wrong on this translation, please by all means provide evidence and rationale.

Let's finish this concept before we move on to others.

 

Related to what? What do the different Suras have to do with each other?

And what is Sura 9 about?

 

Good luck. Sam will never allow a discussion on Islam without derailing the thread and plugging it up with propaganda.

 

maybe he is a muslim who is trying to educate someone who is ignorant? say you