Transhumanist (nanotech) Socialism

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Jerry Jesus, Jan 21, 2006.

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  1. Jerry Jesus Registered Member

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    An interesting primer can be read here:

    http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/10/27/134818/22

    Regarding what could be one of humanities most revolutionary discoveries:
    nanotech replication and its implications for society as we know it.

    The proponents here make the argument that basically, with the advent of advanced nano-scale replicators that manipulate single atoms and molecules, we could create the neccessities of life, thus doing away with the need for markets and creating a sort of socialism.

    I dont whether this subject belongs here or in the "economics and business" category seeing as technically it's not dealing with economics as we understand it.

    Is this technology relatively close at hand? and if so what are some examples of its applications? Dangers?
     
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  3. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    the BORG are coming... you will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

    -MT
     
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  5. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    Well, my opinion is that it is a few decades away at least, and that the powers of nanotech are vastly oversold.
    Heres a good bog to get started:
    http://www.softmachines.org/wordpress/index.php

    Basically, nanotech itself is still at the stage of laboratory building of parts of machines, and laboratory demonstration of working bits of machines, like motors and stuff. This is a long way away from actual working nanobots. But, we know that some kind of nanotechnology is definitely possible, since we exist. We are examples of nanotechnology, and the reactions taking place inside us right now are incredibly complex and usually quite efficient. But this is somewhat different in approach to the purely striaght line mechanistic nanotech proposed by people like Drexler.

    Anyway, another point about creating the necessities of life is that you will need energy to do so. Where will you get such energy, and how will your idnividual ned fo said energy conflict with your neighbours. This will lead to problems similar to those encountered with the building of power stations and wind turbines right now. Not to mention what we do with fields etc when crops are unnecessary.

    Anyway, I note that the posters on the link you provided have put forwards some similar points.
     
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  7. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think that mature nanotech that will bring about a post-scarcity society is likely in the very near future. It will take a number of remarkable advances to develop reliable and cheap manufacture of commodities on the nanotech scale; not least in the development of the systems that will be needed to control trillions of very small edvices.

    Nevertheless, as Guthrie points out, similar sytems occur inside living systems and are generaly controlled and monitored quite well.

    But before we achieve such a post-scarcity society we ill need to find a reliable supply of energy. In fact we are in a race against the diminishing stocks of fossil fuel; there is abundant energy in our solar system if wemanage to gain access to it; a trillion times as much energy as we currently use is pumped out by the Sun constantly, and the fissile and fusable elements in the solar system represent billions of years of potentially useful energy.

    When and if we acheive such a state of post scarcity then we will have to think of new ways of regulating the economy; not an easy task.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2006
  8. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    Incidentally I think that artificially produced food may well become important over the next hundred years, if it can be produced quickly and cheaply; biut I think that this will be a result of biotech rather than nanotech as such.
    Rapidly growing food producters with the assistance of (for instance) bioprinter macjhines would involve many processes much larger than nanoscale.
     
  9. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

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    It's safe to assume that I'll be dead long before nano-replicators and such will get online. There are very few if any hard data/experiments suggesting that nano fantasies will come true any soon, but noise... noise that $ hungry scientific crowd makes is simply deafening. It certainly gives an impression that replicators are just round the corner

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    As any sci-fi novel, nano technology (or rather descriptions of what ought to be nano technology) generate lots of thoughts&applications in one's mind. For example, if nano technology will live up to hype, one could try to create simplest life forms out of dirt

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    If there is a shred of sanity in Universe, Providence should never allow such an insanity, it's suicidal. Good (or bad, depends on beholder) thing, all those imaginary applications are good only for another sci-fi story, grant application (and bickering on internet).
     
  10. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

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    i think it's possible, maybe not this century, but it's definetly possible. In fact, if i may inject my crazy daydream that's probably full of crap...

    We could have nano-surgery. This would be literally using nanobots to cure various diseases, clean arteries, etc etc. this would be occuring around an age when prosthetic implants and such are more common and well-developed. eventually, someone creates the cure for AIDS, an artificial immune system consistent of nanites programmed with a recipiant's DNA. eventually, these artificial immune systems are allowed to optimize other functions of a human body, such as tissue health and mental health. ultimately, the nanites in an artificial immune system may themselves change and engage in a network of shared knowledge much like the nanites in Prey (Micheal Crichton), and form an artificial intelligence WITHIN the person. With the nanites seeing that the host body must be kept alive, the relation betweeen that human and the nanites within becomes symbiotic, with nanite optimizing the human's performance (altering the human's bone structure from calcium composite to alloy, boosting muscular efficiency, changing skin charachteristics, improving neurological performance, imunizing from practically any biological disease, maybe introduce sensitivity to radio and other EM frequencies), and the human in charge of most of the conscious thought (acting as the body's main line of defence and main caretaker). The relation between the human and the nanite-system would become so intertwined that a single, biological/nanological super-being is created, with split biological and nanological charachteristics and a single meshed-together intelligence formed of the original person's mind and the conscious mind formed by the nanites. basically a super-human, with extreme intelligence, physical prowress and survivability.

    i don't plan on defending this idea, just something that came to mind.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2006
  11. Nanonetics Registered Senior Member

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    From what I have gathered, Solar can power things like houses or calculators, but for our vast transportation networks, jet fuel, heavy cargo shipping, powerful dirt movers and other construction equipment, there is no substitute for fossil fuels right now or for the forseeable future. The "heavy work" power requirements are unable to be met with solar energy alone.

    Nevertheless, nanotechnology itself may someday hold the key for production of a clean, renewable energy source and an significantly increased efficiency of heavy machinery, reducing the power requirement needed.
     
  12. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    You would still have a market for raw materials, especially exotic metals.
     
  13. Anomalous Banned Banned

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    eburacum45

    Why do U look like a Scared Tiger ?
     
  14. Anomalous Banned Banned

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    Its quite possible to create power out of air alone. Air has molecules bouncing evreywhere , if we could use the impacts of thoes molecules to run a nano generator then we should be able to solve our nano power problemo
     
  15. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    I'm fairly certain that it's been proven that this couldn't work, but I'll have to let someone more up on their thermodynamics explain why.
     
  16. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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  17. Anomalous Banned Banned

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    Meet Mr. Orthodox Preist of 21st Century.

    Look how meticulously first he dismisses the theory and then admit that he is a ....

    Although the ******** ******** * ****** ****** **** * * ***** doesnt say anthing why it wont work , but he definitely positively certain.

    Form a Humanologist point of view : he finds the idea Seemingly impausible.
     
  18. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Uh, no. I didn't say I was "definitely positively certian". I said I was "fairly certian", and that you should probably ask someone who knows more about thermodynamics. Please read people's posts carefully before responding.

    Also, don't be so defensive. Are you here to bitch at everyone who suggests you might be wrong, or are you hear to share information and ideas? I'm not here to debate the feasibility of extracting energy from the kinetic energy of ambient air, so if that's what you're looking for you'll have to look somewhere else. I am simply telling you that a few years ago I read a detailed analysis of this idea in a thermodynamics textbook. I remember that it concluded it couldn't work, but I don't really remember the specifics. I am not "dismissing" your theory, I am letting you know that it's been thought of and there's a body of literature analyzing it. Now that you know this, perhaps you would be interested in looking in the thermodynamics literature for more information. Or perhaps you aren't interested in hearing other people's perspectives and just want to dismiss anyone who questions you as a "******** ******** * ****** ****** **** * * *****".
     
  19. Nanonetics Registered Senior Member

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    Does this refer to harnessing thermal flow in the air with little micro windmills? That sounds interesting. Something like that could be done in the oceans on a large scale but its probably more practical to use the force of waves on the surface.
     
  20. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

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    while they're on the water, why not engage in nano-fusion of deuritium (hydrogen from water) with boron (extracted from seasalt)? no idea if fusion can be done in nano-scale, but if you could, you could also have nano-fusion batteries consistent of a paste in which nanites perform fusion on a nanoscopic level and convert the energy into almost pure electricity/light/whatever form of energy you're needing.
     
  21. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    This would effectively be picotech, as fusion occurs on the subatomic scale between the nuclei of atoms.
     
  22. Anomalous Banned Banned

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    I have a right 2 beetch every moron who claims without any kinda explainations.

    Sucker then Keep Ur mouth shut.
     
  23. Nanonetics Registered Senior Member

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    The nanoscale fusion and picotech ideas are interesting. The basic fuel or catalyst molecules, naturally, are already at approximately the needed scale. What about lasers, containers, transformers, thermal and electrical conduction mediums like a paste?
     
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