Trans vs feminists: Are Trans women women?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. birch Valued Senior Member

    You dont check. This isnt about perfection, its about preventing unnecessary exploitation of 'rights'.

    You are physically of a certain genitalia, you use the facilities designated for that. If a transgender who identifies as female will primarily dress as one just as a one that identifies as male wouldnt be questioned. If they are civil and minding their own business, shouldnt be a problem. Besides, restrooms have stalls. Its when you have no standards whatsoever that it becomes a major problem. In the case of open showers and even locker rooms where people undress in front of others, one can easily see that no designation would be ripe for exploitation for peeping toms, impostors or perverts, no? Tootsie?
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Hey here is an idea: what if their was no open showers and locker rooms, what if there was private stalls instead? Problem fixed.
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Well I disagree that trans women are women. I disagree that equality means that women are forced to share private spaces with biologically intact men.

    You don't seem to understand Iceaura. I used that ridiculous argument to point out how crazy it is to simply say that women should be forced to share bathrooms, dressing rooms, shelters and resources with a group that aren't in fact women, its just as crazy as claiming that pedophilia is an orientation like homosexuality. The APA says “In fact, APA considers pedophilic disorder a ‘paraphilia'. Gender dysphoria is a disorder just like anorexia is a form of body dysphoria, anorexics at their worse can look in the mirror and see a fat person instead of skeleton frame, someone with gender dysphoria 'feel' themselves of the opposite sex. We know for example that the suicide rate of trans folk is just as high after surgery and it is before sex reassignment surgery. So if you and other's really care about them you would be asking more questions about what is going on with that group instead of taking it at face value.

    1. After gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who had the surgery but remain traumatized - often to the point of committing suicide.
    2. Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth (20%) of patients regret changing sex.

    There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow. The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

    So why are women being asked to transform a very basic part of their lives for a very small group who's condition is still quite clearly unknown? Well I believe its social engineering, if it weren't then there would not be this move towards a sketchy law that cannot identify who is a transsexual and who isn't, one must simply declare oneself as such even in the absence of all other evidence. How do you think that a disabled person would feel if those who suffered from 'body integrity identity disorder', Sufferers of BIID are uncomfortable with a part of their body, such as a limb, and feel confident that removing or disabling this part of their body will relieve their discomfort. They feel better when their limbs are removed and go to great lengths to make sure that happens. Are we to assume that because people with BIID 'feel' this way that society should allow them to remove healthy limbs and then be granted the same rights as the genuinely disabled? Remember that someone who removes their limbs is exactly the same as those who are actually disabled except one made a choice and the other didn't. The difference is that once a transgender person has reassigned they are still not real women which accounts for the reason why surgery often doesn't bring relief.

    In January 2000, the mass media ran several stories about Robert Smith, a surgeon at the Falkirk and District Royal Infirmary who had amputated the legs of two patients at their own request and was planning a third amputation. The news stories incorrectly described the patients as suffering from Body Dysmorphic Disorder. They further stated that the director of NHS trust running the hospital at which Smith works described the amputation of healthy limbs as "inappropriate"; since then, no British hospital has performed a voluntary amputation.The patients were, in fact, suffering from Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID), an apparently rare condition characterized by a burning and incessant desire to amputate an otherwise perfectly healthy limb. The first documented case of BIID dates back to a medical textbook published in 1785, by the French surgeon and anatomist Jean-Joseph Sue, who described the case of an Englishman who fell in love with a one-legged woman, and wanted to become an amputee himself so that he could win her heart. He offered a surgeon 100 guineas to amputate his leg and, when the surgeon refused, forced him to perform the operation at gunpoint.

    Most BIID sufferers, however, describe their feelings in terms in terms of identity, instead. "My left foot is not a part of me," said one of Smith's patients. "It feels right," says another sufferer, "the way I should always have been and for some reason in line with what I think my body ought to have been like." "I didn't understand why," says yet another, "but I knew I didn't want my leg."

    Yet you would treat transgenderism as something other than a disorder when you would have problems finding the difference between the 'identity' of someone who feels their foot isn't a part of them whatever that means, and someone who thinks their body isn't a part of them whatever that means.
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  7. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Here is the bulk of the article with the quotes in highlight so that you can no longer pretend that the quote doesn't exist from Soloway herself.

    The last time I saw Jill Soloway, it was the autumn of 2014. The writer and director of Transparent had flown over from the US ahead of the show’s launch, and we met in a central London hotel room. Soloway had more than an hour’s hair and makeup beforehand, and was visibly nervous, uncertain what the reception would be for a show with a trans character at its centre; Soloway, I wrote in my notes, “fiddled a little girlishly with her long hair”. Bruce Gilbert, Soloway’s husband, was working as music supervisor on Transparent, and we discussed how nice it was to have the support of your spouse in the workplace. One thing Soloway did not especially want to discuss were the personal experiences that influenced the show, and I had to ask about them several times before it finally emerged that Soloway’s own parent was transgender....

    ...This time we meet at Soloway’s house, up in the hills of Silverlake, Los Angeles. It’s one of the most desirable areas of the city, although its bohemian reputation is now somewhat undermined by the expensive cars parked in front of the rambling bungalows – Porsches, 4x4s and, of course, Priuses. Soloway still shares the bright and rambling house with Gilbert and their eight-year-old son (Soloway also has an older son from a previous relationship), and glimpses of their now wildly successful life are scattered around, like Through the Keyhole clues: a script for Transparent is on the table, a clutch of Emmys are shoved in the drinks cabinet and an assistant is in the kitchen making guacamole. Soloway, who looks like Lena Dunham’s older sibling and is as warm and engaging as I remember, is in a checked shirt and Gucci pyjama trousers. The long hair is gone, replaced by cool little quiff, and unlike last time, Soloway is bare-faced: “I think I’d had two hours of makeup before last time we met, didn’t I? Wow,” Soloway says, marvelling at their past self. “Anyway, have you seen the show? Tell me what you think.”...

    ...One utopian ideal that Soloway brings to their sets is what they call “doing box”, which is when everyone gets together at the beginning of the day, stands on a box and shares whatever they’re going though in their personal life. This way, Soloway says, “Everyone knows humans are prioritised over time and money here. It’s a patriarchal-toppling tool.”

    “Cute” is one of Soloway’s favourite praise words now when referring to a person’s looks. “When people gender me as female, I feel strange, and if someone is like, ‘You look so pretty’ or ‘beautiful’, I feel offended. It’s like I’m succeeding at something feminine when I’m not trying, and that feels like a strange insult,” Soloway says.

    These days, Soloway adds, they get rid of their whole wardrobe every six months: “I’m changing every day, so every six months I’m like: ‘None of this stuff makes sense any more.’ I got rid of every even slightly feminine shoe. There’s a feeling of being grown up, and moving through the world and feeling like I’m the subject instead of the object and that doesn’t really work for me if I’m feeling feminine.”

    But, I say, surely the revolution is in re-defining what feminine or female attractiveness means rather than rejecting femaleness? After all, I Love Dick makes the feminine the subject.

    “I think it’s more about the binary, the masculine and feminine,” Soloway says, lapsing back into the jargon. “There will always be incredibly masculine people and completely feminine people, but that has nothing to do with people’s bodies, whether they have a penis or vagina. And besides those two poles there’s also a place in the middle, the non-binariness, the people who don’t register as one or the other. I’m happy to speak on behalf of women and on behalf of feminism. But I notice when people see me as non-binary, I get treated more as a human being,” Soloway says.

    Hearing Soloway, whose work is so profoundly feminist, suggest that the best way to be treated as a human is to not be a woman is so befuddling that I am almost speechless. But, I manage, isn’t the point that the definition of a woman should be broader, as they have shown in their work. To retreat from being called a woman feels as if they are giving up the field.

    I hear that, and I felt that way a couple of years ago,” Soloway says. “I do agree that ‘woman’ shouldn’t mean a particular thing, that it can mean anything. But the words man and woman, male and female, they describe who we used to be. You know, there are a lot of trans men who menstruate and there are a lot of trans women who get offended if the feminist movement is about vagina hats. [The binary] is not going to stand in the future.”

    I notice when people see me as non-binary, I get treated more as a human being
    I don’t doubt that the world would be better with fewer divisions, but the reason Soloway gives for wanting to dissolve the gender binaries is so astonishing to me it feels like a betrayal. Unfortunately, time is pressing and I have to move on, but as soon as I leave the house I send Soloway an email: “Do you see any contradiction,” I write, “in that your work celebrates femaleness but you personally are rejecting it?”

    A lengthy correspondence ensues, in which Soloway sends me emails filled with phrases such as “a non-binary, spherical, balanced crucible for being that is un-gendered”. But after a few weeks of this, in which I basically ask the same questions over and over and they patiently reply in various ways, Soloway sends an email that makes me sit up: “I identify as trans, which means that I am not seeking to synthesise my appearance with the label assigned to me at birth and instead am opting to live in a space where a label other than male or female is used to define me,” they write.

    I hadn’t heard Soloway use the word “trans” in relation to themself before, so I ask them to elaborate. “Under the transbrella, there are so many identities. I haven’t made the big ‘I’m trans’ announcement because the politics in the community are so intense. It’s more like I had the realisation that the word cis didn’t work for me, so first there was the ‘not-cis’ revelation, which linguistically means the same thing as trans. As I said, most people who play with gender norms like butch women don’t identify as trans so it’s a little wobbly. I think in a year or two, more people will.”

    However Soloway sees themself, there is no doubt they are now having a good time. They are currently single, having recently come out of a relationship with beat poet Eileen Myles. “I’m having my queer adolescence now,” Soloway smiles. “It’s fun.” We then talk a little about the cliched dynamics men and women fall into in relationships, and Soloway tells me a story about how they recently eavesdropped on some couples in a jacuzzi (“And the men were like: ‘If I get her a kitchen, maybe I’ll get sex!’”) that makes me double up laughing.

    My taxi back to the airport arrives and we hug goodbye. As I leave, Soloway, Sarah and the assistants are all deciding which pair of glasses Soloway should wear (“So cute!”). In another era I would have described them as looking like a creative female collective. Now, I don’t know what the right words would be. But I will say this: it sure looks like they’re having fun.
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    There is no such thing as a french topless beach, you have beaches where some women choose to go topless. Fine. The bathrooms and dressing rooms in France are still segregated even though women can go topless at the beach. Why do you think that is? Not wanting to watch some strange man undress doesn't amount to body shaming, that's just ridiculous.

    Trans theory is based on the idea that there are no real biological differences between men and women. Its based on the idea that physical differences are arbitrary, insignificant and irrelevant. This is why you have trans activists like Serrano denouncing the idea that chromosomes, DNA and sex organs translate into a specific sex from birth. This is why she claims a man can menstruate and a woman can have a penis. The theory bypasses biology to come to the conclusion that sexual identity is based on how one 'feels' or what one thinks they are, just like people with BIID who believe their 'identity' is around being disabled when they are not. Its the normalization of a disorder requiring society play 'let's pretend', let's pretend that biology doesn't exist, let's pretend that men go through menopause and have children, let's pretend that women can have a penis that can operate as a sperm organ. Its the land of pretend and it isn't based on any scientific reality at all. The only thing psychiatry knows is that there are people who feel this way and that reassignment can sometimes lead to relief, much of the time not as they commit suicide anyway. Neuroscientists are looking for this precarious difference between trans folk and the rest of society but what they know so far is that there is no difference save what trans people say they are experiencing, there are no signs of this showing up in the brain or body.
  9. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    So do homosexuals. Your point? Transgender women get beat up by women in women's bathrooms too.

    Its not just in western culture. Show me a culture that doesn't separate boys and girls once puberty hits outside of the West? Or in any traditional context?
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    the reason the suicide rate is still so high is because of people like you lucy. hate to break it to you their not the problem you are. your really tip toeing toward some really ugly stereotypes and i would suggesting treading very carefully.
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    What an appeal to traditionalism! Every culture also has a preference, latent or explicit, to keep women at home making babies, what is your point?

    Again if you don't want to see a man's junk or fear perverts sexualizing you, why not just have private stalls?
  12. Bells Staff Member

    And now you lie.

    It's not enough that you are spreading bigotry and stereotyping and quite literally dismissing violence against them.

    But now you literally resort to lying.

    I provided you with numerous links, to articles and studies that show those brain differences and how the brains of transsexual women, for example, physically resembles that of cisgender women brains even before they start hormone treatments.

    So stop lying.

    You really should refer to something even mildly scientific instead of bloggers such as the one where you have been pulling some of your quotes and tables from in previous posts.

    It would also help if you stopped copying and pasting from other websites and passing those words off as your own:

    1. After gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who had the surgery but remain traumatized - often to the point of committing suicide.
    2. Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth (20%) of patients regret changing sex.

    As for the Guardian's story you linked, it also states that a large majority do better after the surgery.

    And it is not surprising that some are stressed by it. After leading a life of abuse and bigotry from people such as yourself, no amount of surgery can fix the kind of psychological damage people like you inflict on others. I mean, case in point, you are comparing transgender people with those who suffer from a debilitating psychiatric illness. And you post that some of them are still killing themselves post surgery? Gee, I wonder why! People like you who refuses to acknowledge who they are.. People like you who see fit to diminish them and their suffering.. People like you who persist with negative stereotyping about how we, as women, should all apparently look like, people like you who are literally harking back to the time before women even had the right to vote to determine the female gender and applying those same archaic paternalistic values to women (and this includes transgender women)..

    And you are boasting that they are killing themselves?

    And here we all thought that feminists have spent generations that women and men are equal and that any differences are irrelevant and arbitrary.

    You are literally setting the women's rights movement and feminism in general backwards in your rabid zeal to be a bigot.

    What a shameful display!

    Considering you are relying on copying and pasting from blogs instead of actual scientific studies about the differences in the brains of transgender people, you really should not be making these frankly stupidly false assertions.

    You really should stop being so dishonest.

    Science has shown that gender identity is in the brain.

    And transgender men and women, have brains that resemble those of the gender they identify as and with, even before they start taking hormone treatments. The physical structure of the brain matches that of the gender they identify with and as.

    So yeah, stop being so dishonest.
  13. Bells Staff Member

    They usually do have private stalls.

    I don't know what it's like in the US change rooms, but most countries I have visited, it's private stalls with a door or curtain of some sort.

    We should also remember that transgender women have been using the women's bathroom for a hell of a long time. It only became an issue when men decided to start going off about it because since gay marriage, they have determined that all things LGBT is apparently evil.

    Moral puritanical panic is how I would describe it.

    They keep harping on about men pretending to be women to apparently rape or sexually assault women and girls. They completely ignore the fact that rape and sexual assaults are predominately by people known to the victim, just as they completely ignore the fact that if someone was looking to rape or sexually assault a woman or girl in a public toilet, they would not care to disguise themselves as a woman, but they tend to just enter a public toilet that is often remote'ish' (such as in a park, for example) and attack the victim if they are alone in said toilet.

    In short, these types of rapists aren't going to bother going to that sort of effort and would do it regardless of any laws regarding transgender women using the women's bathroom. And there are already laws in place to protect people in public bathrooms from actual sexual predators.
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Here's a link to both diagrams

    I'm not sure which blog you're referring to. I thought you had made mention of the video with the woman who de-transitioned. If so this is her blog

    Bells gender and sex are two different things entirely. Gender is simply the expression of the feminine and masculine traits we assign to sex. Sex is the biological reality of sex reproductive organs (testes, penis, ovaries, uterus, chromosome, DNA etc).

    Those studies are not conclusive Bells which is why those same researchers say Guillamon isn’t sure whether the four regions are at all associated with notions of gender, but Ivanka Savic-Berglund at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, thinks they might be. One of the four regions – the superior longitudinal fascicle – is particularly interesting, she says. “It connects the parietal lobe [involved in sensory processing] and frontal lobe [involved in planning movement] and may have implications.

    The following is what we know so far on this subject

    Scientists who tried very hard to find differences between male and female brains said they couldn’t do it — not with brain scans and not even by asking seemingly obvious questions such as whether someone likes boxing or worries about his or her mother. They couldn’t find any single pattern that distinguishes between a male brain and a female brain, and say only a very small percentage of people fall under clear all-male or all female brain patterns.

    Scientists who tried very hard to find differences between male and female brains said they couldn’t do it — not with brain scans and not even by asking seemingly obvious questions such as whether someone likes boxing or worries about his or her mother. They couldn’t find any single pattern that distinguishes between a male brain and a female brain, and say only a very small percentage of people fall under clear all-male or all female brain patterns.

    “Our study demonstrates that although there are sex/gender differences in brain structure, brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females, nor are they aligned along a ‘male brain–female brain’ continuum,” Daphna Joel of Tel Aviv University and colleagues wrote.

    And also from Scientific American (I've already posted this)

    In other words, there does seem to be a relationship between SG size and social perception, but it is not a simple male-female difference. Rather, the SG appears to reflect a person’s “femininity” better than one’s biological sex: women who are relatively less feminine show a correspondingly smaller SG compared to women who are more feminine, and ditto for men.

    This finding—that brain structure correlates as well or better with psychological “gender” than with simple biological “sex”—is crucial to keep in mind when considering any comparisons of male and female brains. Yes, men and women are psychologically different and yes, neuroscientists are uncovering many differences in brain anatomy and physiology which seem to explain our behavioral differences. But just because a difference is biological doesn’t mean it is “hard-wired.” Individuals’ gender traits—their preference for masculine or feminine clothes, careers, hobbies and interpersonal styles—are inevitably shaped more by rearing and experience than is their biological sex. Likewise, their brains, which are ultimately producing all this masculine or feminine behavior, must be molded—at least to some degree—by the sum of their experiences as a boy or girl.

    And so, any time scientists report a difference between male and female brains, especially in adults, it begs the question, “Nature or nurture?” Is women’s larger SG the cause of their social sensitivity, or the consequence of living some 30 years in a group that practices greater empathetic responding? Wood and colleagues are among the few neuroscientists to analyze male-female brain differences for their relationship to gender type, as opposed to strict biological sex. Their findings do not prove that social learning is the cause of male-female differences in the brain, but they do challenge the idea that such brain differences are a simple product of the Y chromosome.

    Now what does that mean? It correlates to gender, it does not correlate to sex which cannot be a mistake anymore than one's skin color and it represents the feminist model of gender who've been saying all along that there is no such thing as a female brain or a male brain for that matter as gender is an expression of feminine and masculine not of 'male' and 'female'. Male and female correspond to sex, physical sex and not gender. Transgender theory claims this isn't so. They claim that the difference between men and women is in the brain and from there that sex follows and then gender, which is why they desire reassignment surgery. If the expression of masculinity and femininity were not judged so harshly and delineated so severely then there would be no reason for men or women to change their sex to correspond with their gender, they would just be feminine men and masculine women and that would be ok.

    They would be like this young woman

    See she gets it. She came to realize that transgenderism reinforces gender and doesn't abolish it.

    I didn't revert back. I said in that post that the bathroom bill is not meant to help trans folk who have reassigned and look like the sex they wish to look like. Its made for those men and women who do not because the truth is that most transgender people do not go through full reassignment surgery and this is why there have been incidents where men, full biologically intact men who simply say they are women have access to the changing rooms, bathroom, etc. They don't need a letter from the doctor, they don't need to make any effort to look like a woman they just have to say they are one. The mens room and the women's room is not a room that is based on ones gender but based on ones sex. So I don't see why a man who simply thinks he's a woman suddenly gets special access.

    I don't have a 'brand' of feminism. Do you?

    part 1
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

    OK, we agree there too.
    I think you use the facilities appropriate to your GENDER - and you get to decide that. We used coed bathrooms in college, and no one had any issues with using the "wrong" facilities - both work for both sexes.

    However, I agree that if you don't check, and you remain civil and mind your own business, then it won't be a problem. That's a good goal for both sides.
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Part 2

    Bells: “you are applying the very paternalistic ideal of "real women" that our feminist ancestors railed against in the past."

    No I am not. Feminists rallied against GENDER not sex, they didn't say that because a woman has mostly masculine qualities that they are automatically male, that is what trans theory claims. Feminists didn't say a woman must be or do anything to be a woman, transgender people feel otherwise, they believe that by changing physically they reach a state of womanhood because they now have an inverted penis and a pair of tits, feminists have been spending all this time claiming that the tits and vagina have a physical reality and that physical reality has allowed for a patriarchy that keeps women stuck in rigid gender roles. Feminists defied the notion that the tits and the vagina were indications of femininity or masculinity. That still stands. What trans theory claims is that BECAUSE a man feels feminine he must be a woman and because a woman feels masculine she must be male, this is dangerous. It unravels all the work feminists have achieved by reverting back to feminine=female, masculinity=male. If trans people were able to accept their dysphoria or rather accept the ambiguity then they wouldn't need to transition like the woman in the above video. Whether you realize it or not what you are defending is the notion that gender=sex which is as anti-feminist as it gets.

    I don't think Greer cares what transgender people do. I know I don't care if they transition or not. Greer, others and myself are arguing against trans theory not trans people. Trans theory is in direct contradiction to feminist theory. When Greer was asked whether she believes trans women are real women she said "no" and has been harassed for saying no. Are you claiming that women who do not accept trans women as being a physical material reality should be harassed and silenced? Is it that you believe there should be no questioning and critique of a theory? Any theory? What makes trans theory so special that it cannot be challenged?


    Structural MRI scans were used to compare the size of various brain structures between three groups of volunteers: heterosexual men, heterosexual women and the transexuals (or “MtF”s as I will call them for short) who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria and were “genetically and phenotypically males”. There were 24 in each group, which makes it a decent sized study. None of the MtFs had started hormone treatment yet, so that wasn’t a factor, and none of the women were on hormonal contraception. The scans showed that the non-transsexual male and female brains differed in various ways. Male brains were larger overall but women had increases in the relative volumes of various areas. Male brains were also more asymmetrical. The key finding was that on average, the MtF brains were not like the female ones. There were some significant differences from the male brains, but they weren’t the same differences that distinguished the females from the males.

    Gender dysphoria is suggested to be a consequence of sex atypical cerebral differentiation. We tested this hypothesis in a magnetic resonance study of voxel-based morphometry and structural volumetry in 48 heterosexual men (HeM) and women (HeW) and 24 gynephillic male to female transsexuals (MtF-TR). Specific interest was paid to gray matter (GM) and white matter (WM) fraction, hemispheric asymmetry, and volumes of the hippocampus, thalamus, caudate, and putamen. Like HeM, MtF-TR displayed larger GM volumes than HeW in the cerebellum and lingual gyrus and smaller GM and WM volumes in the precentral gyrus. Both male groups had smaller hippocampal volumes than HeW. As in HeM, but not HeW, the right cerebral hemisphere and thalamus volume was in MtF-TR lager than the left. None of these measures differed between HeM and MtF-TR. MtF-TR displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus.The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized. The observed changes in MtF-TR bring attention to the networks inferred in processing of body perception.

    Basically these were trans people who had not gone on hormone treatment. The scans showed that male to female brains WERE NOT LIKE THE FEMALE ONES. This does not contradict that there is no such thing as a male brain or a female brain. All brains are alike, the following isn't a gender study but one about whether there are actual differences between male and female brains other than size.

    “This evidence that human brains cannot be categorised into two distinct classes is new, convincing, and somehow radical,” says Anelis Kaiser at the University of Bern, Switzerland.

    The idea that people have either a “female” or “male” brain is an old one, says Daphna Joel at Tel Aviv University in Israel. “The theory goes that once a fetus develops testicles, they secrete testosterone which masculinises the brain,” she says. “If that were true, there would be two types of brain.”

    To test the theory, Joel and her colleagues looked for differences in brain scans taken from 1400 people aged between 13 and 85. The team looked for variations in the size of brain regions as well as the connections between them. In total, the group identified 29 brain regions that generally seem to be different sizes in self-identified males and females. These include the hippocampus, which is involved in memory, and the inferior frontal gyrus, which is thought to play a role in risk aversion.

    “There are not two types of brain”

    When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

    This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. “There are not two types of brain,” says Joel.

    What the gender study shows is that the data did not support the notion that brains of Male to female trans folk are feminized. Its ridiculous. So I suspect you just don't even understand the studies you are citing or you don't understand that the 'search' for the trans brain hasn't been found and that they are still doing research to find this ephemeral female or male brain that makes one male or female (trans theory). Daphna Joel who did the study would like to see a genderless world where people are not classified by gender, I agree, so does Greer, so do feminists. What Joel and Greer and myself all seem to agree upon is that sex (organs, reproduction) is a physical reality and has no correspondence to gender. You seem to be arguing that gender overrides sex reality which is trans theory. You are arguing that because a male expresses himself as female that he is a female and therefore needs to change his 'wrong' body to match his gender otherwise it would be wrong right? Feminists who argue against trans theory say no, there is no correspondence between sex and gender and all the studies bares that out. If such a correspondence existed then the structural MRI scans would have found that males who identify as trans would have a similar structure to the brains of females born females and they don't, they have the same size brains as men who were not trans, there was no difference between men who didn't have dysphoria and men who do.
  17. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Part 3

    No you don't understand what I am arguing which is why you claim I would say Moats cannot use the ladies room. Wrong. I agree along with others that women who pass as women have always used the women's bathroom. Always. What I am arguing is against specific legislation that allows men who claim to be women but haven't gone through any procedures nor intend to go through any procedures should be allowed to say they are women and therefore use women's spaces such as dressing rooms, shelters, bathrooms etc.

    You dislike Life Site News? Fine. You can find the exact same article in USA Today

    Last week, a man undressed in a women's locker room, citing a new state rule that allows people to choose a bathroom based on gender identity.

    Around 5:30 p.m. on Feb. 8, a man wearing board shorts entered the women's locker room at Evans Pool and took of his shirt, according to Seattle Parks and Recreation.

    Women alerted staff, who told the man to leave, but he said "the law has changed and I have a right to be here."

    As far as policy to protect everyone, Seattle Parks spokesman David Takami says they're still working on the issue. Right now, there's no specific protocol for how someone should demonstrate their gender in order to access a bathroom. Employees just rely on verbal identification or physical appearance, and this man offered neither.

    "This didn’t seem like a transgender issue to staff – someone who was “identifying” as a woman," Takami said in a statement. "We have guidelines that allow transgender individuals to use restrooms and locker rooms consistent with their gender identity. We want everyone to feel comfortable in our facilities."

    "Really bizarre," MaryAnne Sato said. "I can't imagine why they would want to do that anyway!"

    Sato uses the locker room a few times a week, but she says this is a first for her.

    It's also a first for Seattle Parks and Recreation. Employees report that the man made no verbal or physical attempt to identify as a woman, yet he still cited a new rule that allows bathroom choice based on gender identification.

    Anyone can pick up an article Bells it doesn't make the article itself invalid. Are you going to dismiss it now that USA Today has it covered?

    A woman born without a vagina, which is very rare, is still a woman on a biological level, on a chromosomal level they have ovaries and fallopian tubes, clitoris, breasts, the whole machinery sans vagina. The condition doesn't render the person dysphoric which is the definition of transgender.

    You asked me whether I believe being transgender is a choice. No, no more than anorexia is a choice or body integrity identity disorder (BIID) choice. What one does with that anxiety is another thing all together. Do you believe the medical profession should remove healthy limbs from those with BIID because their 'identity' is that of a disabled person and they think the limb shouldn't be there? Should that be the 'cure'? Remember that gender dysphoria is not eased with reassignment and HRT which is why the suicide rate after surgery is roughly the same as before surgery.

    Sex changes are not effective, say researchers

    There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

    The Guardian asked Arif to conduct the review after speaking to several people who regret changing gender or believe that the medical care they received failed to prepare them for their new lives. They explain why they are unhappy with their sex change and how they cope with the consequences in the Weekend magazine tomorrow (July 31).

    Chris Hyde, the director of Arif, said: "There is a huge uncertainty over whether changing someone's sex is a good or a bad thing. While no doubt great care is taken to ensure that appropriate patients undergo gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatised - often to the point of committing suicide." Arif, which advises the NHS in the West Midlands about the evidence base of healthcare treatments, found that most of the medical research on gender reassignment was poorly designed, which skewed the results to suggest that sex change operations are beneficial.

    Bells: "You identifying as a male or female is not by choice, Lucysnow. How you identify yourself as is actually from your brain and not from what is between your legs."

    Research says there is no such thing as a female brain nor is there such a thing as male brain. So why do you claim otherwise? If its not what is in between one's legs then why is it not standard practice to not name a child male or female at birth. If what you claim were true they would wait until the child can talk and tell them. A person can choose their gender expression but not their sex.

    Bells: "It's not about wearing a dress. You think identifying as a woman is really just about hair, make up, clothes and high heels?

    No but evidently trans women do otherwise they wouldn't put on the dress, the heels and do hair and makeup to project a female image. Women need not wear a dress, heels or makeup to project their femaleness or womanhood. How many men transition and portray a butch female? None yet women are often butch.

    Bells: " Your gender is not a choice,"

    LOL! And you're not confused what? LOL. I thought you believed gender a construct. Gender IS a choice, its an expression reinforced by culture and society. Women wearing dresses is a gender stereotype. Are you claiming women do not have a choice as to whether they express their femininity or not? When Jill Soloway claims she changes her wardrobe every six months because she changes her gender just as often are you claiming she is crazy? I mean its not a choice right? She presents as a female and then six months later she presents as a male. She obviously was making a choice.

    Bells: "Science and the many many studies that have been performed on transgender people that show a clear distinction in their brain and clear difference in their brain that matches that of the gender they actually identify with.."

    I just showed you evidence that this isn't the case. You can call all those who disagree with trans theory bigots if it makes you feel better I don't really care. I am not going to accept a theory just because its become fashionable. I don't speak out against trans people, I am speaking out against trans theory. I would make the same arguments if it became standard practice to treat people with BIID as a disabled person.
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Doctors disagree with you. My mother would disagree with you. The Mayo Clinic says Menopause is the time that marks the end of your menstrual cycles. It's diagnosed after you've gone 12 months without a menstrual period. Menopause can happen in your 40s or 50s, but the average age is 51 in the United States. Menopause is a natural biological process. But the physical symptoms, such as hot flashes, and emotional symptoms of menopause may disrupt your sleep, lower your energy or affect emotional health. There are many effective treatments available, from lifestyle adjustments to hormone therapy.

    Some other things that happen such as cessation of periods, drop in estrogen, lack of vaginal secretions, lowered sex drive and vagina atrophy are some of the other symptoms. I'm sure you know them well but its besides the point because I never said all symptoms are the same for every woman Bells. I said ALL biological women will go through menopause if they live long enough so it cannot be a stereotype. It is something that all women can expect. Its something they all share. All women don't get pregnant but all women have to deal with pregnancy because if a woman cannot conceive for some reason its considered a problem. A woman can choose not to have a baby but then she has to deal with contraceptives or have an unwanted pregnancy and all women have to deal with that. Reproductive freedom is a cornerstone of feminist liberation theory which is why abortion rights where considered necessary by feminists.

    You do realize that when Greer speaks of the smelly ugly vagina she is being facetious right? I mean you do realize, oh contemporary woman, than for centuries women's vagina's were considered 'dirty'. How long were they telling women to douche to get rid of that 'not so fresh scent' in commercials etc? How long did it take to pull douches from the market because they were dangerous, washing bacteria back up the canal lead to infections. So why were women douching? They were douching to get rid of the natural vaginal scents that were considered 'smelly'.

    Clean and Fresh! Ummm!

    I don't care if you've met Greer, this topic isn't about Greer. I don't care if you have problems with things she has said, I have problems with things she has said, that's not the point. Greer only comes into focus because she and many many other feminists disagree with trans theory and are being harassed because of it, no platformed by trans activists. Do you think its right that a leading feminist is not allowed to speak because she won't say trans women are women? Are you for censoring feminist voices who disagree with trans theory?
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  19. Bells Staff Member


    Science is showing that gender stems from the brain and that gender identity, ergo, follows on from that.

    Countless of studies have shown how reactions and even brain structure of transsexual men and women are more aligned with the gender they identify as. Seeing that these are new findings, of course more research needs to be done. But to date, all signs point towards this.

    Your argument stems solely from the basis of bigotry. You have veered all over the place, from asserting the feminist ideal that both sexes are equal, to then arguing that they are different and must be kept separate.. In short, you have tried to badly implement an argument that has literally taken the women's rights movement and taken a huge and giant turd right on top of it. Why? Because from your argument that gender does not apparently matter, you have argued that it matters because you think men are somehow or other trying to become women and stealing your 'safe place'.

    You have openly admitted that you do not trust the evidence presented to you, even scientific evidence, because:
    Fundamentally, you are arguing that human rights are simply 'fashionable'. Because at the end of the day, the transgender debate falls back to and always reverts to fundamental human rights.

    Instead, what we got from you was a vapid display of outright bigotry and stereotyping. Repeatedly. On top of that, the tried story of the man who walked into a change room and declared that the laws stated he was allowed to be there.

    While failing spectacularly to notice that a) the man was not a transgender woman and b) there are laws in place that prevent men from barging into the women's changeroom to perve at women. I have emphasised the giant part you kept missing about that story..

    And now this..

    Are you serious?

    Did you not read what I wrote? I said my ovaries were both removed after I had a hysterectomy because of cancer...

    Do you know what happens when someone has a hysterectomy and has both of their ovaries surgically removed?

    ..removal of both ovaries will cause an immediate menopause;

    This wasn't a natural biological process. This was due to surgical intervention.

    It is referred to as a "surgical menopause".

    And no, doctors do not disagree with me about it. Do you want to know how I know what a surgical menopause is? Because I went through it. It isn't a gradual natural biological process that happens after one's last bleed 12 months prior. It's pretty much instant. Why? Because they go in and physically remove the ovaries.
  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Woah! I'm not lying and that info does not come from bloggers it comes from here

    So you owe me an apology. I am not lying and that link is in the post. All my links are in the post. The fact that some people feel better after surgery has had no impact on suicide rates. What the article is pointing out is that its not a cure, if it were a cure, if there was nothing going on in this community except for a misalignment of the brains with their bodies as you suggest then reassignment surgery would work all of the time and we wouldn't have mounting evidence of trans people de-transitionning. Why would anyone de-transition if they're cured?

    Is the New Atlantis lying too when they state

    ● The hypothesis that gender identity is an innate, fixed property of human beings that is independent of biological sex — that a person might be “a man trapped in a woman’s body” or “a woman trapped in a man’s body” — is not supported by scientific evidence.

    ● According to a recent estimate, about 0.6% of U.S. adults identify as a gender that does not correspond to their biological sex.

    ● Studies comparing the brain structures of transgender and non-transgender individuals have demonstrated weak correlations between brain structure and cross-gender identification. These correlations do not provide any evidence for a neurobiological basis for cross-gender identification.

    ● Compared to the general population, adults who have undergone sex-reassignment surgery continue to have a higher risk of experiencing poor mental health outcomes. One study found that, compared to controls, sex-reassigned individuals were about 5 times more likely to attempt suicide and about 19 times more likely to die by suicide.

    ● Children are a special case when addressing transgender issues. Only a minority of children who experience cross-gender identification will continue to do so into adolescence or adulthood.

    ● There is little scientific evidence for the therapeutic value of interventions that delay puberty or modify the secondary sex characteristics of adolescents, although some children may have improved psychological well-being if they are encouraged and supported in their cross-gender identification. There is no evidence that all children who express gender-atypical thoughts or behavior should be encouraged to become transgender.

    There was a BBC documentary called 'Transgender Kids: Who knows Best?' Which featured a Dr. Kenneth Zucker who works with trans children. He was harassed and denounced by trans activists after appearing on the show. Why? Because he cautions about sending children down a trans path without further knowledge. He said "It's possible that kids who have a tendency to get obsessed or fixated on something may latch on to gender. Just because kids are saying something doesn't necessarily mean you accept it, or that it's true, or that it could be in the best interests of the child." He was forced to close his practice, kind of like how abortion clinics are forced to close by religious fanatics.

    You seem to think this is correct. Having any doubts, critiquing trans theory makes one a liar or a bigot and deserves to be silenced and or harassed.

    How is stating that trans people continue to feel suicidal and troubled a boast? Its just a fact.

    Bells: And here we all thought that feminists have spent generations that women and men are equal and that any differences are irrelevant and arbitrary.

    I haven't said any differently. Can two things be different and yet equal? Yes. Feminism states that because a woman can get pregnant doesn't mean she's less equal. I'm saying the same. What feminism isn't saying is that a woman should be more like a man to be equal to a man, that's what Jill Soloway seems to think.

    I don't expect you to read my posts that were not directed to you but if you had you would see I added the scientific info with the links.

    I want to know how does this brain that prescribes gender turn into a "gender non-conforming queer person, who prefers to be referenced with gender-neutral pronouns (they/them/their)"?

    Is there a brain that has both him and her to create a 'they/them/their' person? This is what Jill Soloway says she is experiencing and how she should be referred.

    "Soloway and Gilbert have separated and the director now identifies as a gender non-conforming queer person, who prefers to be referenced with gender-neutral pronouns (they/them/their), and if reading an interview in that style takes some getting used to, I can assure you that writing it up did, too. Soloway has also become much more comfortable talking in interviews about how their shifting gender and sexual politics inform their work, of which there now seems to be a never-ending stream."

    Where is the science that detects that?

    Remember the homosexual, straight brain?

    "This research is pointing to basic differences in the brain between homosexual and heterosexual people that are likely there right from the beginning," said Sandra F. Witelson, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral neurosciences at McMaster University in Ontario. "These could be reflecting some genetic or hormonal factors that predetermine your sexual orientation."

    Others, however, argue that such research is far from conclusive.

    "I remain skeptical," said William Byne, a professor of psychiatry at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York. "There's been a history of jumping to conclusions and overinterpreting findings in this field."

    Research is still out on exactly what all this information means and points to. After all there are people who do re-focus their orientation without it shattering the idea of homosexuality and lesbianism. Are they liars? I agree with Byne that there is a lot of jumping to conclusions and the same is true in transgenderism.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Oh yes MEN, so Lucy has a penis now? You do know there are women that don't like gay marriage and LGBT? It was women that choose to end ERA, one reason was because they feared the unisex bathroom!

    As the feminist scholar Jane Mansbridge wrote in her postmortem of the amendment fight, Why We Lost the ERA, “the unisex toilet issue fed the fervor of the anti-ERA forces by giving them something absolutely outrageous to focus on.” Among other things, “it could conjure up visions of rape by predatory males,” while igniting smoldering passions in a South that had recently experienced “the historical trauma of racial integration.” ---

    Or are these women so weak willed they just do as man say? Are women devoid of agency? People like you divided us, not bey conservatives and liberals, but by men and women, and now look at where we are: republican domination of goverment and pig boar for president.

    It is emotional, not logical, and even if it is not rape it is the male gaze, just the eyes of men is dangerous enough apparently. Even you seem to agree when you disregarded gernaine "wanta fuck boys" greer when she said eyes can't be stopped and are harmless. Hey now if a pedeophile says 2+2=4 I'm not going to argue against that just because she craves little boy seamen.

    I have no disagreement with this argument.
  22. Bells Staff Member

    Ermm Lucysnow, no, "all biological women" will not go through menopause. Because not all "biological women" are born with ovaries.

    Or are they not "biological women in your eyes, because they will never share the experience of a menopause?


    Which has what to do with transgender women? Or are you positing the argument that because transgender women do not get to experience "it's considered a problem" if they cannot conceive or have a child, they cannot be women?

    I mean, what other excuses are you going to give for your bigotry at this rate?

    I wasn't talking about "the info".

    I was talking about those two sentences..

    Here is what you wrote (which does not appear in the acarticle, by the way!) and failed to link or attribute where you pulled this from:

    The website you pulled those exact two sentences from:
    1. After gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who had the surgery but remain traumatized - often to the point of committing suicide.
    2. Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth (20%) of patients regret changing sex.
    That website also included the Guardian's story link, which you then quoted from that and linked that.

    But those two sentences, you pulled from another site, copied and pasted it and failed to even acknowledge where you pulled those two sentences from.

    Unless of course you are going to try to argue that by some amazing miracle, you wrote the exact same thing and miraculously linked to the same article (which you then quoted from after posting those two sentences)?

    Look Lucy, I don't care that you are quoting from other sites. But at the very least have the common decency to post a link to what you are copying and pasting from. You have done this a few times now. It's plagiarism. So please stop it. It is dishonest and no, I will not apologise for calling you out on it.

    And yes, you are lying when you declare that there is no scientific evidence for transgender when there is. You just refuse to believe it because of your own bigotry.
  23. Bells Staff Member

    Oh for God's sake!

    New Atlantis authors and bioethicists publishing in other journals have also similarly referred to The New Atlantis as being written from a social conservative stance which utilizes religion.​

    The two authors of that piece that you linked from "The New Atlantic".. Lawrence S. Mayer and Paul R. McHugh...

    Its authors are Dr. Paul McHugh and Dr. Lawrence Mayer of Johns Hopkins University’s Bloomberg School of Public Health and School of Medicine in Baltimore, Md., who between them have never conducted independent research on LGBTQ Americans.

    Ooohh.. Off to a flying start!

    The paper was published in The New Atlantis, which is not a peer-reviewed medical journal, where reports by members of the Johns Hopkins team might normally be found. Instead, it’s the product of the Ethics and Public Policy Center (EPPC), a Christian-focused conservative think tank “dedicated to applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to critical areas of public policy.”

    Even if you’ve never heard of EPPC, their stance on some key issues in LGBTQ life will be familiar. The group supported the now-defunct Defense of Marriage Act, objected to the elimination of Don’t Ask, Don’t tell and supports efforts by conservative states to enact religious freedom restoration acts.

    Although it might appear unusual that Johns Hopkins healthcare professionals would publish a paper of this kind in a religious publication with a political agenda, Mayer shrugged it off. He conceded in an email to ThinkProgress that the report “may be politically biased but it is not scientifically biased.”

    To the religious right wing of American politics, and in particular its leaders in the anti-gay and anti-transgender movement, the report is seen as “groundbreaking.” That’s what Brian Brown, president of the National Organization for Marriage, called it: a study that will “expose the lies of the media and LGBT activists, that contradict not only common sense but also the best scientific knowledge.”

    The Scientific American also had a few things to say about these two and the bogus site you linked:

    When did you choose to become straight?

    Say what?

    By demographic distribution (about 95 percent of the population identifies as heterosexual), the majority of you reading this column are straight. You no more chose this sexual orientation than gays or lesbians choose theirs. Yet a new study published in the fall issue of the nonpeer-reviewed journal The New Atlantis by Johns Hopkins University's Lawrence S. Mayer and Paul R. McHugh on “Sexuality and Gender” claims that “our scientific knowledge in this area remains unsettled,” that there is no “scientific evidence for the view that sexual orientation is a fixed and innate biological property,” and that no one is “born that way.” This sounds so 1990s, the last time the gender wars heated up. What's going on here?

    One clue comes from the journal's co-publisher, the Ethics and Public Policy Center (EPPC), “dedicated to applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to critical issues of public policy.” Already we're off the science page. EPPC scholars, its Web page continues, “have consistently sought to defend and promote our nation's founding principles—respect for the inherent dignity of the human person, individual freedom and responsibility, justice, the rule of law, and limited government.”

    Shouldn't such principles apply to everyone regardless of whether or not their sexual orientation is biologically determined? Of course, and in most Western countries today they do. But in Judeo-Christian America, the argument goes like this: The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin (Leviticus 20:13). If sexual orientation has a strong biological component, then gays and lesbians can hardly be held morally culpable for their sinful ways. But if it's a choice, then they can be rehabilitated (through “conversion therapy”) and forgiven (“love the sinner, hate the sin” goes the popular trope). Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart articulated the logic this way: “While it is true that the seed of original sin carries with it every type of deviation, aberration, perversion, and wrongdoing, the homosexual cannot claim to have been born that way any more than the drunkard, gambler, killer, etc.”
    You know, it would help if you stopped peddling right wing religious fear mongering and tried to pass them off as science.
    He was fired because he is a hack.

    A dangerous hack.

    He ran a conversion and reparative clinic.

    And your are making the comparison between closing a conversion therapy clinic and an abortion clinic? Seriously? Have you no shame?

    You are a liar because you are being blatantly dishonest and denying actual science because you think it's just "fashionable" and don't even get me started on the plagiarism. You are a bigot because you not only stereotype, but you also denigrate, insult and abuse because they are transgender. You are a bigot because you refuse to acknowledge who they are.

    So much so, you are now parroting right wing religious ideology to support your bigotry and you are praising a guy who practiced conversion therapy on kids.

    Have you no shame?

    And you are whining? Lady, silencing you is not my goal. I rather let you expose yourself for the bigot that you are.
    When you post it as a boast, when you post it in a further effort to demean and degrade them, then it is a boast. When you post it and refuse to acknowledge the bigotry and rejection they face that leads them to be suicidal to begin with, when you fail and refuse to acknowledge how behaviour such as yours causes more harm and damages them so badly, and you instead try and tout it as being 'oh it's the surgery that's the issue', when in reality their depression is caused by a multitude of factors, including lack of help and support because people such as yourself exist with your godawful views, then yeah, it's a boast. And that is a fact.
    And what? You think transgender women are forcing or making women be more like a man to be equal to a man?

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