to vacinate or not to vacinate

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by Asguard, Apr 26, 2009.


manditory vacination?

  1. yes

  2. no

  3. other

  4. dont care

  1. jibbleton Registered Member

    Vaccination rates are already quite high in Australia thanks to carrot and stick policies.

    Carrot: Maternal immunisation payment. Vaccinate your kid, get paid.

    Stick: Don't vaccinate your kid and you'll have a hell of a time getting them into childcare or schools.

    The problem with a law requiring vaccination is that it would be a pain to enforce, especially given the dismal state of medical records in this country. I'd be more interested in the implementation of other policies like the above which would encourage the small percentage who hold out against vaccination to change their ways.
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  3. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    Plus I think if someone were trying to forcibly inject me I think I'd a) kick them in the face and b) do my best to leave the country.
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  5. Slysoon Registered Senior Member

    Vaccines which use thimerosal (a mercury compound) as a preservative revolve around the assumption - one unfounded by science - that ethylmercury, a compound the body metabolizes thimerosal to (alongside thiosalicylate), shares a toxicity level equal to methylmercury. The EPA guidelines recommend limiting mercury to 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day, based on studies concerning a case of methlymercury poisoning in eighty-one Iraqi children. The FDA's guidelines recommend a maximum daily mercury intake of 0.4 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. There exist vaccines which contain up to 25 micrograms of mercury per 0.5 millilitre dosage, meaning a twenty-pound child (weighing 9.07 kilograms), following one of the dozens of vaccines he or she is required to take, would cause an overdose of nearly 28x according to the EPA's guidelines, and nearly 7x according to the FDA's guidelines.

    Following the autism explosion (autism in the United States between 1992-1993 and 2000-2001 increased 644% amongst children on average), and congressman Frank Pallone's successful amendment to the FDA's reauthorization bill requiring the FDA to "compile a list of drugs and foods that contain intentionally introduced mercury compounds and [to] provide a quantitative and qualitative analysis of the mercury compounds in the list", many vaccine manufacturers began to significantly reduce or altogether remove thimerosal as a preservative. What is interesting to note is how mercury poisoning and autism have incredibly similar characteristics, such as psychiatric disorders, disturbances, abnormalities, motor disorders, cognitive impairments, immune dysfunctions, gastrointestinal problems, sensory impairments, epilepsy, and gender targeting. Interestingly enough, urine samples from autistic patients revealed high levels of sulfate despite low blood levels. Similarly, mercury and other heavy metals disturb the sulfate transport mechanism in the body, damaging sulfate retention (especially at the level of the kidneys) almost completely. This causes an excessive loss of sulfate.

    But whether thimerosal is removed completely from vaccinations or not has no bearing on whether vaccinations should be legally mandated. Based on T. H. White's The Once and Future King, totalitarianism has come to be defined as, "everything not forbidden is compulsory". This is how I view the subject of mandatory vaccinations. Problems encountered with mandatory vaccinations not related to totalitarianism and other ideas revolving around population reduction methods would include accidents. One such example would come from early 2009, when an Illinois-based pharmaceutical company, Baxter International Inc., was caught shipping vaccinations to eighteen countries which contained live avian bird flu viruses. Remember, except for very few geographical exceptions regarding specific types of vaccines, you do not have to be vaccinated. Considering the great suspicion and distaste which exists within a growing majority of Americans toward Obama and his health care policies, it would take a massive effort to legally mandate vaccinations in the United States. Plus, Americans still have their guns, and I wish the best of luck to whomever attempts to vaccinate an angry individual with a gun. What always peaks my interest about mandatory vaccination debates is how the state would vaccinate individuals and their children who do not wish to be vaccinated. Would the state use the police force to tranquilize such individuals and temporarily kidnap their children? And for every vaccination people are encouraged to take by various public health agencies with differing guidelines? Hardly practical and nearly impossible to pull off against a well-armed public.
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  7. LadyMidnight Catherine J. Registered Senior Member

    I think it's borderline negligence when parents don't have their kids vaccinated. Just because Oprah says that vaccinations cause autism doesn't mean it's true. Ever since this whole autism scare, a lot of parents have been skipping the vaccinations. Effect? More outbreaks of infectious diseases that once seemed to be controlled.
  8. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    if there is a law for vacinations, i think that it should be vaccines that are fairly common place like the tama flu. But the vaccine would have to either be free or severly subsidized, otehrwise itd just be vaccine companies controlling the price.
  9. swivel Sci-Fi Author Valued Senior Member

    Autism didn't increase, Slysoon, the diagnosis rates for autism increased. That is: definitions changed, not ailments.

    If you look at the same period of time, you'll see a plummeting rate of general language disorders. That which we used to call one thing, we now call "autism." Even high-functioning people, like those with Asperger's, are falling under the umbrella.

    A study in Canada found that autism rates actually went down while thimerosal vaccines were being used. Not a statistically-significant amount, but the trend was down rather than up.

    And a study in Britain showed that actual autism rates haven't changed, just our rates of diagnosis. This is a conspiracy theory that has been put to bed dozens of times. Please let it stay asleep.
  10. thinking Banned Banned

    I would chose not to vacinate

    why ?

    because this weakens the immune system
  11. WillNever Valued Senior Member

  12. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    err they are? (At least in Australia)
    or are you saying they shouldnt be paid out of the public purse just given away by the manifacturers? Possable if the goverment set up plants to do it but problematic

    The only ones which are subsidised rather than free are the optional ones, for instance for me to get the Hep shots now i would have to pay for them because they wernt around when i was a child
  13. superstring01 Moderator

    I recently got my Tetanus booster shot (which now comes with the Whooping Cough vaccine).

    Mid October I'll get my Flue + H1N1 (two shots).

  14. superstring01 Moderator

    What universe are you living in?

    Tell that to all the millions of lives saved by the small pox vaccine or the polio vaccine.

  15. LadyMidnight Catherine J. Registered Senior Member

    There are arguments that say this, but there are also arguments that say that vaccinations STRENGTHEN the immune system. So much politics has come into science that you don't even know what to believe anymore.

    I do know that many African children do not receive vaccinations. Their immune systems don't seem any stronger, right? Polio is still common in Africa, but not in America. American children get vaccinated against polio and we lose far fewer children to such illnesses. I make the connection in that way.
  16. mugaliens Registered Member

    Encouragement, informed consent, but it's ultimately an individual's decision. If said individual is a minor, it's ultimately the parent or guardian's choice.
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    "... The doctor whose research linking autism and the vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella influenced millions of parents to refuse the shot for their children was banned yesterday from practicing medicine in his native Britain. The doctor's 1998 study was discredited; but vaccination rates have never fully recovered and he continues to enjoy a vocal following, helped in the U.S. by endorsements from celebrities. The doctor plans to appeal the ruling, which goes into effect in 28 days, according to the AP. ..."

    Read more at:

    "From 1998-2004, studies in journals including the Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine, Pediatrics and BMJ published papers showing
    no link between autism and the measles vaccine.

    Wakefield moved to the U.S. in 2004 and set up an autism research center in Austin, Texas, where he gained a wide following despite being unlicensed as a doctor there and facing skepticism from the medical community. He quit earlier this year. Offit said he doubted Britain's decision to strip the 53-year-old Wakefield of his medical license would convince many parents that vaccines are safe.

    "He’s become almost like a Christ-like figure and it doesn't matter that science has proven him wrong," Offit said. "He is a hero for parents who think no one else is listening to them." ..."
  18. scott3x Banned Banned

    I've argued the point in this thread in the past, it's clear that most aren't interested in what I have to say here, but for anyone who might be, I found a good youtube video with a fair amount of info. Here's the link:
    The Dangers of Vaccines - Part 1 (MMR HPV Autism Gardasil Swine Flu H1N1Thimerosal)

    I've excerpted the first part, there's a lot more links at the above link:

    Health authorities claim vaccines are safe and that they prevent infectious diseases. Yet these claims are contradicted by statistics and medical studies.

    The HPV vaccine for girls is very dangerous!

    Playlist 'The Dangers of the HPV Vaccine':

    Information about the H1N1 Swine Flu vaccine:

    Vaccines are the main cause for crib death or SIDS! Other side effects include autism, brain damage, ADD, ADHD, learning disabilities, dyslexia, cancer, epilepsy, seizures, allergies, asthma, diabetes, obesity, etc.

    Vaccines contain many toxic substances including mercury, aluminium, formaldehyde, methanol, MSG, antifreeze, latex, aborted foetal tissue, animal blood, animal viruses, foreign DNA, bacteria, etc.

    Thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative has been used in vaccines since the 1930's. Mercury is the most toxic element after plutonium. Thimerosal has been linked to many physiological and neurological disorders, including autism and Alzheimer's.

    Due to public concerns was Thimerosal removed from most childhood vaccines, but it is still used in other vaccines, including flu shots. Vaccines now contain increasing amounts of aluminium, another toxin.

    Many parents and healthcare professionals around the world are becoming aware of the problems and are starting to question the need for vaccinations.
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I think anyone can put up a post at YouTube. It is some what harder to publish in Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine, Pediatrics and BMJ etc.
  20. scott3x Banned Banned

    Yes, just about anyone can post in youtube. It has its cons, but on the other hand, the big pharmaceutical companies don't have so much control over what is said. Did you check out any of the links?
  21. akshay Registered Member

    I am lost in forum wilderness

    Hi there!!
    Sorry to bother you outta nowhere. But I wanna join your Science group .please admit!
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    You have it just backwards. The exact way a vaccine works is by exercising the immune system. It introduces a dead, or weakened, or slightly different version of the attacking cell and trains the immune system to engineer the antibodies to attack it. This takes place in a low-risk environment. If it fails to counteract the attacker you don't die, so it has a chance to try again until it gets it right.

    This results in making your immune system more versatile and more effective. Vaccines don't replace your immune system and let it become lazy; they keep it vigilant and make it stronger. I'm surprised your doctor didn't explain this to you.
  23. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    I can see the reasoning in that little joke. The "principle" behind homeopathy is that if you introduce a vanishingly small amount of a toxin into your body, your body will figure out some clever way to counteract its effect. So when you run into a large quantity of the toxin, your body will know exactly how to fight it off.

    At a very superficial level, this is vaguely similar to the way vaccines work. But only vaguely:
    • A vaccine is not a submicroscopic quantity of cells of the real disease/virus/bacterium/whatever.
    • It is a dead cell, or a cell from a related species that resembles it closely but is not as dangerous to humans.
    • This triggers an immune response and your immune system attempts to create an antibody that will neutralize it.
    • The kinds of chemical toxins that homeopathy generally focuses on do not attack the body in the same way that bacteria and viruses do.
    • Their attack is more direct, physical or chemical rather than biological.
    • It takes place at the molecular level rather than the cellular level, and your immune system has no way to create antibodies that small.
    • Nice joke, but the devil is in the details and the details of this joke are all wrong.
    Vaccination is a public health issue. Even we libertarians support vaccination campaigns, and we're normally always on the side of the oddballs and the one-percenters. It would be nice to allow everyone to make their own decisions about whether to vaccinate themselves and their children. However, by allowing unprotected people to walk among us, we're allowing the disease to live among us, and it increases the risk to all of us. Yes since we're vaccinated it shouldn't be able to harm us, but bacteria and viruses mutate and we won't be immune to the next strain. The only way to eliminate a disease like this is to vaccinate everybody. This is one of those little freedoms you simply have to give up for the good of everyone. It's not like smoking pot or having four-way sex or keeping a collection of Nazi mementos or doing something in private that has a negligible effect on the rest of us. Not being vaccinated increases everyone's risk of getting the disease, so we can't allow anyone to make that choice.

    Sorry 'bout that.

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