To spank or not to spank.???

Even as a child I hated hated hated hated hated spankings, but I fully understood why the parents did it.

I only consider my dogs my property in the legality sense. In any other context, they are family members.
Usually with my dogs, a stern "NO!" or "WRONG!" is all it takes for them. Sometimes I have to give Kingston a hard shove in the face to get him out of mine though, but that's usually it.

 

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Fixed, gee that looks abusive! Even with a dog.

 

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I guess if you was hit by you'r parents an you'r also in the habit of hittin children it prolly seems a good an normal thang to do.!!!

Yesterday i was aroun this 2 year old little girl an she was sweet as coud be... however i was tolt by a manber of her family that she is very mean (not in a jokin way) an needs her "But" whooped (hearin that was mor gross than bein in a church)... the child did get a bit louder after a while... an she will prolly get plenty of "But" whoopins in the future an she will survive it 1 way or the other... but i thank the mane reason people whip ther children is a way to espress ther pent-up anger from un-related issues.!!!

I dont thank it was even invented yet... lol... but i was never even givin a "time-out"... but on the tv show "Nanny(?)"... whare this lady goes aroun helpin parents wit ther "bad" kids... ive seen "Time-OUts" work very nicely... an time after time its also very obvous that the kids ant "bad"... the parents are time-straped worn-out frustrated an ignert about parentin skills... much like people wit "bad" dogs... when actualy it ant the dog who is the prollem... its the ignert owner of the dog whos caused the prollem in the firs place.!!!

 

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Few of us have used that logic, certainly not me. I'm not appealing to tradition.

You know one sign of sockpuppeting is to incorporate mannerism that are diffrent from ones normal account, and to do so in spades such that its soo obviously an artificial persona. Just saying.

Perhaps, but that just abuse, not corporal punishment. Perhaps some abusers hind behind the guise of corporal punishment, but that is no reason to throw out the whole system.

And I've seen time outs fail gloriously, which brings me back to my point that some punishments work better on some kids and not on others.

Stop watching the dog wispier and super nanny.

 

ElectricFetus---
Few of us have used that logic, certainly not me.

I'm not appealing to tradition.

ElectricFetus---You know one sign of sockpuppeting is to incorporate mannerism that are diffrent from ones normal account, and to do so in spades such that its soo obviously an artificial persona. Just saying.

ElectricFetus---Perhaps some abusers hind behind the guise of corporal punishment, but that is no reason to throw out the whole system.

ElectricFetus---And I've seen time outs fail gloriously, which brings me back to my point that some punishments work better on some kids and not on others.

Stop watching the dog wispier and super nanny.

 

No not necessarily, you just have to bear in mind that they are kids, some things will be just whining, but some will be worth listening to.

Would spankings work on him either though? He would probably progress from there to reasoning that his parents won't hit him all that hard, since they don't want to actually injure him, and that he could look forward to at worst a slap or two and then be free to do whatever he wanted.

 

None of my arguments have been based on tradition, bias perhaps, but the arguments are logical and thus the bias of the messenger does not matter. You must attack the argument, not why it was made or who made it.

No, it wouldn't remove the need for spankings and corporal punishment, which are not anger based, simply based on the concept of maximum negative reinforcement in as limited a time as possible. Corporal punishment is the next resource when more liberal punishments fail, many well minding new age parents have come to need it on specific children. There are good kids who never needed or were spanked in their lives, yet in some cases even their siblings could be barely controllable even with spankings!

I've heard if Scientology is done properly it works to, all those it failed on just did not truly believe! Time-Outs even done so called "properly" are not the end all be all of punishments, it's not a cure all, and its not useful on all kids, some kids will be more receptive to corporal punishment, for some kids it will be the only thing that works.

Which has nothing to do with my argument.

I would have to agree, it sounds like his parents are fuckwits incapable of tough love, and would probably fuck it up if they tried: they would not likely produce the fear and pain required. I would figure corporal punishment is best on kids and age ranges where the pain and fear of more pain is simply not worth risking again. Just as time out is useless on kids that can easily entertain them selves, even in the dark of an empty locked closet, or worse on vindictive kids that only think of revenge for any action their parents take against them. If corporal punishment fails the last option you'll have is military school, that fixes just about anyone except the criminally insane.

 

"in the dark of an empty locked closet"... lol... aparently you ant seen Super Nanny show... but on occasion it deals wit parents wit atitudes simular to you'rs... an when the parents finaliy do the time-outs corectly... the "prollem" children do respond in a positive mannor... all wit-out pane an fear an dark locked closets.!!!

I say zero... but jus qurious... what % of young children (2 thru 5) woud you estimate need whippins cause time-outs wooud not be effective.???

 

yes of course X solve all problems, if its not working, its because your not doing it right... you do know thats the same logic cults utilize don't you? Its infallible and its always your fault if it does not work.

Haven't a clue, does not matter though, if other techniques fail corporal punishment is the next option and no parent should remove that option out of some misconstrued ethics, or worse keep repeating the failed techniques trying to "do it right".

 

I wonder about people who don't have children who say they will spank those children. Why would a person decide on that before hand?

 

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
"in the dark of an empty locked closet"... lol... aparently you ant seen Super Nanny show... but on occasion it deals wit parents wit atitudes simular to you'rs... an when the parents finaliy do the time-outs corectly... the "prollem" children do respond in a positive mannor... all wit-out pane an fear an dark locked closets.!!! ”

cluelusshusbund
Well i ant never been involved wit a cult... but what you'r sayin ant my argument... im sayin Time-outs is a simple concept that even people wit you'r attitud about whippin can learn in a few minutes... even by stuborn parents who was raized on bein whiped an determined to cary on the traditon.!!!

You tell me not to watch the Nanny show an wont acknowledge the succesfulness of the Time-outs... or that even when parents wit atitudes such as you'rs are convienced to be consistent wit the Time-outs... that the Time-outs are successful even wit those parents... an when the child learns (in a few houres) that the Parents are gonna be consistent... then the screamin an whippin becom unnecesary... an the child an parent actualy communicate... an whats so funy is... all the parents are very surprized that the tecknequie realy does work... but it does thake som estra time an effort in the beginin.!!!


Originaly posted by clueluss husbund
“ I say zero... but jus qurious... what % of young children (2 thru 5) woud you estimate need whippins cause time-outs wooud not be effective.??? ”

clueluss husbund
I ask jus to get a clue to you'r mind-set about whippin an children... an its hard to beleive you cant suggest a % as you'r bes guess.!!!

cluelusshusbund
I wasnt afrad to answr... i say Zero... but i ant surprized you woudnt even discuss it... which ant necesarly a bad thang sinse it is a bit disgustin to discuss hittin 2 to 5 year olds (well it is for me)... but you seem to be arguein to "win" debate ponts or jus to be "rite".!!!

You shud watch the Nanny show an then give an opinion about it.!!!

 

Ignerence... misinformaton... carryin on tradition... to avoid acknowledgin that ther parents coud have easily done a beter job... are disgusted by anythang "liberal" soundin.... derive satisfacton from hittin defenceless people... this abusive nature was beat into 'em by ther parents... prolly lots of other reasons.... that woud be a good queston for Dr. Fill.!!!

 

I've never said time outs can't be used, I'm saying when it fails you should have a harsher option to fall back on to.

I've seen time outs fail first hand, I know there are exceptions to almost anything, yet you claim time outs will always work if done right, hence that when they fail their not done right, the argument is a fallacy: there no way to prove time outs don't fail ever because of the "done wrong" cop out and you can't prove how to do time out 100% of the time "right" either.

why? its not important.

My mind set is spanking is an option that should be allowable if required. By all means if you only want to implement it when all else fails that find by me. I think scaler punishment are very logical strategy: start with the nice option like reasoning, if that fails move up to time outs, if that fails move up to corporal punishment, apply which option based on the severity of the offense, past success with it, age and personality of the child.

For example if you tell a young toddler not to touch the radiator it is likely it will anyways (possibly because it does not understand your commands yet and/or because its a stubborn shit that disregards your commands by instinct.) when the toddler touches the radiator it learns by its self never to touch it again (and what "Don't touch its hot" means or that your warning was valid, and maybe next time it will listen), now there are other dangers offenses that may not provide such a lesson until it to late, such as when you find your child throwing pennies into a running fan, walking into an open street, attempting to cut an electrical cable with scissors, etc. It might be best to provide a small taste of the pain that it would have received had its actions led to real consequences or you might want to use a punishment that as harsh as possible to teach the lesson of pain that could have been received so that there is not a next time where you find your child has just hospitalized, crippled or killed its self.

I'm not sure what you said but I'll try to reply to it anyways: that sick! A refrigerator would not do that to a full grown pig!

 

In you'r mind you have scored a "debate-pont"... but im jus discussin the issue an not tryin to prove anythang... but you still refuse to discuss what you thank the effectivness of Time-outs woud be wit 2 to 5 year olds.!!!

I suspect that you do realize how very effective Time-outs can be but dont want to discuss it because it mite take away a "debate-pont".!!!

Is spankin not an allowable opton.???

If Time-outs were as effective (long an short term) as spankin... woud you still druther spank than use Time-outs.???

Do you acknowledge that Time-outs wont work if the parent isnt consistent wit that tecknique... an if so... woud you encourage parents to take the time an make the effort to applly the tecknique properly... which coud lead to fewer children bein whipped.???

Lots of drama thar... but i suspect that a child whos been taut rite from rong thru calm comunicaton... an not by the use of intentonal fear an pane... will be mor likely to have less harm com to them over the years... for 1 thang... they will be mor likely to turn to the parents who use comunicaton skills than parents who taut disiplin thru fear an have givin them pane all ther life.!!!

When my parents dyed i was oK wit it... sht (auto accidnts) hapen... an i didnt have a chanse to say good-by... or try to settle up prollems we had wit each other... ect... but the beauty of it is... we didnt have issues to settle-up... however i did cry at the funeral... but not for them... but because of a little girl who loved dad sudenly started sobbin... deep hard sobs... it broke my hart that she was so up-set... but i know she will always have fond menorys of my dad jus like i do... i jus feel so lucky that i dont have any menories of bein hit or yelled at by my parents.!!!

 

Actually I never been keeping score. I'm not trying to win any formal debate here, I consider is merely a discussion. I don't take the internet seriously.

As I said before it depends on the individual child: some children it will work with some it will not, I don't have a clue what the percentages are and I figure it does not matter, it for parents to find out what is and is not effective on each of their children.

Sure it can be very effective but some kids run way, some kids can entertain them selfs while starring at a wall, some kids will intentionally do things against you while in time out, etc, and some times offenses are just to serious for a mere time out.

Some countries and people want it not to be.

Again it depends on the child, if time outs are effective then why would I need to spank?, aside for say leaving the gate open to the stirs when told to keep it closed at all times and the child's toddler sibling goes tumbling down it, there really is no need for me to remove my belt if time outs are working.

Nothing will work if the parent is not consistent. One of those studies I cited awhile back shows a statistical inverse correlation between time delayed from offense to punishment and offense rate: the slower you are to punish the more often the kids will offend.

Of course I would, why would I not recommend parents be more diligent and attentive parents?

You suspect? Again read one of those studies I cited, specifically the last one I think, children between 4-6 responded less effectively to reasoning than to punishments, and far so to reasoning combined with punishments, be that punishment corporal or not. Maybe your thinking of an older age group, most certainly not of younger one because I don't see how a child that has yet to fully grasp language is going to understand you no matter how much "calm communication" you use!

My butt itches.

In all honesty I don't think parents should care if their kids grow up to hate them, all parents should care about is that the child becomes a successful adult that is satisfied with its life.

 

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
“ I suspect that you do realize how very effective Time-outs can be... ”

Posted by cluelusshusbund
You shud watch the Nanny show so you woud understan Time-outs.!!!

Time outs only las about 1 minute for each year old the child is... ie... a 3 year old... Time-out = 3 minutes.!!!

The purpos of a Time-out is to disrupt the behavor you want to change an allow for comunicaton between the parent an child about why they are bein put in to Time-out... not to make the child miserable (lockied in a dark closet... lol)... but in the beginin the children do tend to run away an intensify ther "bad" behavor (thats when parents give-up)... but wit consistency on the parents part... wit-in a houre or so... even the very vocal an rebelious child begins to catch on to the new system an then everthang calms down an both the parents an the childs behavior impoves dramaticaly.!!!

But time after time the parents start goin bak to ther old habits of hollerin an arguein an hittin... but its recorded on video... an the Nanny ponts it out to the parents... an then the parents realy start to understan what consistency means an thats its esscential
fot the Time-outs to work... an you keep talkin about children that Time-outs wont work wit... an even tho ther is prolly som it ant effective wit... id guess its very few... an for the few it ant effective wit... they are prolly the ones wit psychological prollems that whippin woud be the wors thang you coud do.!!!


“ If Time-outs were as effective (long an short term) as spankin... woud you still druther spank than use Time-outs.??? ”

Posted by cluelusshusbund
That wasnt my queston:::

“ If Time-outs were as effective (long an short term) as spankin... woud you still druther spank than use Time-outs.??? ”

Posted by cluelusshusbund
So you woud whip a 7 year old wit a belt because they was irresponsible wit preformin you'r adult responsibility of insurin that the toddler dont tumble down the stairs... well i thank thats bein a irresponsible parent to both the children... but to be fare...
im sure many many kids get treeted that way so you are by far not alone wit that kind of child rearin.!!!

“ i suspect that a child whos been taut rite from rong thru calm comunicaton... an not by the use of intentonal fear an pane... will be mor likely to have less harm com to them over the years... for 1 thang... they will be mor likely to turn to the parents who use comunicaton skills than parents who taut disiplin thru fear an have givin them pane all ther life.!!! ”

Posted by cluelusshusbund
Im talkin about simple comunicaton wit a 2 year old... not a half-houre lecture wit words on a high-school level... an the comunicaton includes... removin the child from the underisable situaton an taken to the Time-out area... getin at eye level an calmly an simply wit few words let the child know you are not pleased wit ther behavior... even a 2 year old will get the pitcher... but if you thank a child cant understan... how do you thank they coud learn from bein whipped if they cant even understan why they are bein whipped... so that argument dont wash.!!!


“ i jus feel so lucky that i dont have any menories of bein hit or yelled at by my parents.!!! ”

I thank happyness equals success... an a person will be mor satisfied wit life if they dont have hate for ther parents... an the necessity for "tuff-love" you talk about (which coud lead to hate for the parent) woud mos likely be needed because of poor parentin skills early in the childs life.!!!

 

I've seen the nanny show, I'm not impressed.

I've seen enough of them to not question that, than again maybe I've just see alot of really bad kids. Also I don't think egomaniacs are born, I think they are made: through lack luster parenting and parents who fail to teach their children discipline and humility.

I can't really tell what your question was exactly, not my fault though.

I'm sorry but adults are not gods, we can't prevent children from doing dangerous things all the time, every time, when a child does there is little option available to really get it in its head not to do it again. Also I was not speaking of a personal experience of mine, rather of another.

Haha, no they won't! Its sound all nice and sunshine but it doesn't work, statistically proven ineffective even on a higher age group with superior comprehension.

A rat learns how to navigate a maze 7 times faster when incorrect routes are treated with mild electrocution over when correct routes are rewarded with a treat, it neither comprehends how or why its being zapped, but it learns complex mazes at a pace that is amazing for a brain smaller than a peanut. Action and consequence recognition is a trait seen in even some reptiles, let alone higher animals, a child learns merely that a specific action results in pain and not to repeat that action, when it gets older we may find that it comprehends our explanations and commands and we can forgo harsh punishments to reinforce the idea that they should listen to our explanations and commands before hand.

Speaking for your self.

Surely, but poor parenting skills and corporal punishment are not the same thing, sure a lot of bad parents only use corporal punishment and abuse, but good parents have also used corporal punishment, parents whos kids grow up to love them and be successful yet have beaten the shit out of their kids on more than one occasion anyways. People are very forgiving, they either come to accept they deserved it or that their parents were not perfect.

 

Perhaps they were spanked as children. The cycle of physical violence is not an easy dysfunction to stop. Those who experience physical violence as children will most likely carry those traits into adulthood, as they've been taught that physical violence is a valid form of punishment.

 

surely that fallacy is not the reason for all corporal punishment?

 

What fallacy?