To monotheists: Put yourself in our shoes

Kat

is that your belief or can you offer a reasonable argument in your favour?

yes, that's the general idea

well until you offer some premise that can nullify the numerous claims/philosophical writings made in theism, you simply have an opinion.

As for the preliminary stage/s - you have never encountered a normative or prescriptive description in scripture?

generally rules for a coherent argument is that when a person gives an opinion they also give a premise

no

I am arguing that empiricism only has authority on things we can control - for instance your belief that the president of america actually exists is technically not an empirical claim (unless you have seen him in person - which is unlikely since I doubt you could get past the first of his 1008 secretaries/body guards)
the only way you get to see the president in person is if he agrees to see you (which tends to indicate you have to cultivate some sort of friendly or subservient relationship before hand) - empiricism (in the classical sense) will not help you

perhaps you can indicate how one can indicate proof to persons who are unqualified

so its reasonable to expect a janitor to perform the job a forensic scientist?

I thought we were discussing testing the truth or a claim rather than discussing testing the logic of a claim?
which one are you discussing precisely?

“

the same happens with religion - the only difference is that the peer reviewing takes place over longer periods with religion

on what basis do you say that they have never been verified?
It seems you are simply indicating the opinions of persons who are outside of the methodology.
Kind of like saying "the claims of advanced physics have never been verified by carpenters"

all you have done is tagged your opinion with the phrase "because it is illogical"
OK you have repeated your opinion of religion maybe two dozen times already - yes I know you think it is worthless - yes I know you think it is baseless -
now I think we are ready to hear some premises

photographs don't lie?

some libraries have literally miles of books to suggest otherwise

actually persons who (seriously) study world religion (regardless of whether they are atheistic or theistic) make it their business to draw up uniform qualities for defining the essence of god or religion - the fact that I can't think of a single one who behaves in the way that you suggest seems to indicate that you have never seriously studied world religions - still, I could be wrong, so feel free to offer an example for your opinion

maybe you should put some energy into presenting why it is that a person who studies these things is irrational - all you have given so far is something like "they are irrational because they are irrational and the evidence is that they are irrational - this is a fact"
:shrug:

its starting to get frustrating - everytime we start examining how a claim can be rational you interject "but just see it is not truthful" and when we start examining how a claim can be truthful you interject "but just see it is not rational"
we can go round and round like this for practically eternity if you want
alternatively we can discuss what it means to be truthful and what it means to be rational
what do you want to do?

this is a classic example of what I mentioned in the previous paragraph

on the contrary, it is a pity we cannot discuss it all since all you offer is a circular argument of "That is not true because it is not rational because it is not true because it is not rational etc etc" with zero premises

first of all I didn't claim they were the same
I claimed they were similar
for instance "Abrahamic God"
the "abrahamic" is the different thing
"God" is the same thing

secondly, einstein's physics is vastly different from Newtons, yet they are both used to calculate the same thing - (notice how I challenged the rationality of your claim by providing a premise/example)

really?
most scholars would say that islam and christianity are both built on the same foundation - thats why they are both termed "abrahamic"

you mean its kind of like the idea in physics that matter is either a wave or a particle since both versions cannot be true?

vindictive - no
but maybe a little frustrated at your lack of coherent arguments ....

 

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If you claim something about me, then this is true about me, right ...

 

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I could not say I know Jesus. What the Bible says can be interpreted to echo almost anything, depending on who is interpreting what passage or for what purpose and in combination with what other passage.

What do you mean?

But see below -

I'm not sure what the difference would be, really. For as long as I can remember, I could not figure out how I could possibly recognize whether I believe in God or not, or whether I know God or not. What experience or feeling or what in me would I have to look at in order to be able to recognize whether I believe in God or not.

To other people, they said it was the simplest thing. "Just look into your heart" or "Deep down inside, you'll know" - but those phrases are completely useless to me. I don't know which part of me is my "heart" (other than my physical heart, but there doesn't seem to be anything there that I could recognize as evidence for whether I believe in God or not), or what "deep down inside" refers to.

I'll put it this way: No matter what I did, someone -who declared to believe in God- always said I was wrong and that my quest was not genuine.

People like Adstar, Photizo here (so you get an idea), or my relatives and "friends", or people at church. Always someone who tells me "You did it wrong, this is not the right god that you think you believe in, you're wrong".

I can't even say whether I followed anything what the people in the scriptures did, because some person is sure to have an objection against me and call me dishonest, a liar or deluded. Either way, if they are right, then I am not the one to speak of whether I followed anything what the people in the scriptures did. Because I cannot refute those people who call me dishonest, a liar or deluded, as their claims are such that anything I would say would prove them right.
And if I truly am dishonest, a liar or deluded, then there is nothing I could do about it, because everything I do would be just another act of dishonesty, lying or delusion, thus worthless.

?
In my experience, there is always someone who says that they have it right, and I am wrong, and that because I am wrong, I can't know I am wrong, therefore, I should listen to them.

Try to put yourself in my shoes.

To me, religion and believing in God has always been something that has to do with other people and what other people say and do. Something I was supposed to live up to. Something over which I have no saying, and other people are the ones to decide whether I am right or wrong, genuine or not.
Going to church or to meetings (both religious and non-) has always been like going in front of a firing squad. It is just a matter of time before a bullet hits.
And as far as any association with religion goes, there doesn't seem to be any way out of that for me.


I can't express in words how much suffering and agony the quest for God has caused me and still does. I can understand how someone who is on a quest for God can take a gun and kill themselves and others.

I wish theists would understand what it is they are asking of me, of people. Of course they blame it all on us and take our agony to mean that their statements about God and religion are true.

Tell that to Christians, for example.

 

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greenberg,

Any peice of literature can be interpreted to mean anything.
I guess that's where you have to use your intelligence.

Aren't you obliged to investigate the Bhagavad Gita, as it makes a claim?

You are not prepared to believe in God, so you must want to KNOW that God is real. Right?

What is there to figure? You've made the decision which is you cannot "bring yourself" to the position of belief.

What makes you think there is a feeling attached to "belief" in God?
I take it you believe the sun will rise tomorrow, can you explain what feeling you have that recognises this belief?

Then that type of understanding isn't for you, at least initially, it was the same for me.

What did you do exactly?

Same as above.

Suppose people started saying your present questioning and inquiry is dishonest, and you are really an atheist who enjoys playing games. Would you take that as seriously as you do their other accusations?

Would you surrender to them, and do exactly as they say in order to understand that which you seemingly yearn?

Try to put yourself in my shoes.

How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

Why do you believe they are on a quest for God, yet you don't even approach a scripture yet alone believe or understand who and what God is?

Can you give an example of what you mean from sciforums?

Why?

Jan.

 

Actually you could make it even more complicated because you got Christian: or Mormon or Jehovahs Witness etc... All these sub catagories. Its all very confusing and most people hold to one belief and deny and don't look into any others. So to be John Smith looking for the truth you pretty much got no chance in this society which has opened everyone up to so many options. The bible teaches that God chooses you to be saved. Really you got no hope of finding the truth unless God takes you out of the mess of false religions and points you in the right direction.

You could say God must be an aweful God if he only chooses some. But really why should he choose any? We aren't that special, God doesn't need us, we aren't that nice most the time, and some people are just plain evil. Look at what man kind has achieved. Two world wars, polluting the planet that he made, making nuclear bombs and blowing parts of it up. If you gave someone a new car and they treated it like we have treated the planet then you would be pissed off. You gotta give God credit for saving any of us really. I know I don't deserve it. You just gotta be thankful that he loves us that much he is willing to save some. But athiests and people in general don't like believing they are at someone elses mercy, people are proud and want to believe they are the makers of their own destiny, that they don't need anyone else. The truth is your not all that, and you need God. Until you realize that, you are blind to all truth.

 

It's comforting to see you know the mind of God so well

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So....which is the true religion...baptist,anglican,episcopolian,lutheran,catholic,etc,etc,etc??

 

Or a huge ego.

At first, I would think yes. But seeing that numerous texts and people want me to investigate their claims, I am bewildered as to what to do. There definitely is not enough time and energy in a lifetime to do that.

I suppose so.

I have not made such a decision.
That one cannot bring oneself to the position of belief -without compromising one's integrity in the course of doing so- is a conclusion of an argument. I am prone to accept that conclusion because I don't see how it can be refuted.

There has to be something in a person's psyche or body by which one can recognize whether one believes in God or not. Otherwise, "I believe in God" is an empty claim, a mere combination of words.

This is a thought I am pretty sure of, that's how it feels. Also, there is no opposing claim present in my mind, like "The sun will not rise tomorrow".
With God, I can find both "I believe in God" as well as "I don't believe in God" - following eachother in quick succession. It is not like just one or the other would be present in my mind, such as with "The sun will rise tomorrow".

Went to church, prayed regularly, studied the Bible, spoke about God when asked, made an effort to be good to people.

At first, I would surely be hurt seeing someone would think that way of me.
But after all this quest, I think this is actually what is slowly happening - I am becoming less sensitive to what other people say, don't take them so seriously anymore. Although this could be because I have simply become numb from the struggle.

The thing is - I am pulled in a hundred directions.
I surrender to one - another pulls. I surrender to that - some other one pulls. And so it goes. It would be comical if there weren't so much suffeirng involved.

If you know God and believe in God, then I cannot put myself in your shoes.
You are the one who is saved, who knows the truth, who is free from hell.
Why should you have any trouble that would request that anyone put themselves in your shoes?
You want me to have compassion for your superiority?

Mid-thirties.

They say they are on a quest for God. Should I doubt them, think they lie, or hold them to my understanding of issues presumably related to God?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1658226&postcount=33
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1658299&postcount=37
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1614370&postcount=71
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1660657&postcount=48
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1661889&postcount=23

So you can see for yourself that at least some of them will tell you that the BG is not the word of God.

 

greenberg,

That too, but they are easy to spot.

Then you are not serious.

Then where is the structure of your argument, preferably devoid of he says she says.

If you already think you know, then why ask?

How does a thought feel?

Still not letting on how you feel

You've changed the subject.
How does it FEEL to believe the sun will rise tomorrow?

What did you gain from studying the bible?

Try another path, one that suits your state of mind.

Same as above.

Sorry that was a statement you made, which I didn't delete.

Says who?

You have me mixed up with someone else, or maybe my mistake gave you a reason to make stuff up.
If you want to know stuff about someone, ask them, don't harbour pre-concieved ideas, if an honest discussion is your intent.

I'm surprised you still rely on hearsay to direct you in life, maybe its time to re-evaluate.

Don't say anything until you have some idea of what you're talking about. That goes for anything.

Sounds like they're trying to help you.

And of what use is that information to me?

Jan.

 

In order to believe, one needs to have some reliable evidence for that:
external (objective) evidence and internal evidence (one's own thoughts, feelings, tissues), and the two sorts of evidence need to be in accord.

The two seem to be in accord to some extent naturally, hence we can effortlessly believe things like that the sun will rise tomorrow: there is the sun and there are the claims of other people (external evidence) and there is our own memory and our own conclusions (internal evidence).

But this is not so for all things. For many things, there is only external evidence, but there is a lack of internal evidence.
In those cases, to bring oneself to the position of belief would mean to force the two kinds of evidence, to tweak them, to possibly make them up, and most of all, to be very selective in what one admits as evidence and what one doesn't - because usually, there is all sorts of evidence that can be interpreted in many ways. But doing such compromises one's integrity. The result of compromised integrity is that one does not respect the beliefs one has, so one is reluctant to act on them.

I said - There has to be something in a person's psyche or body by which one can recognize whether one believes in God or not. Otherwise, "I believe in God" is an empty claim, a mere combination of words.
It wasn't solely about feeling. It was about "something", some point of reference in oneself, be that feeling, thought, tissue, something about one's self that by examining, one could determine whether one knows or believes in God, or not.

What I gained - positive? Nothing positive really, except for one point: Let your yes be yes, and your no be no.
Meaning, one should not answer anything with a Yes, but ... or a No, but .... Which, in my opinion, is a rather high, but good standard. One should know for sure, or say nothing. But it is also a standard according to which I cannot accept the Bible as my guide to life, as I have many yes-but's and no-but's when it comes to many of its doctrines. In a way, I suppose I'm not actually doing anything against what the Bible says, though.
Jesus should give me credit for that!

This is what believing in God does, right? This is at least what I have come to understand under "believing in God" after readings scriptures and listening to people.
I apologize if I am wrong in this case about you.

I know it sounds childish. But years back, seeing how people were angry with me if I didn't believe them, I decided "Allright, I will believe them. No questions asked, no doubts. Believe everyone and everything. See what happens." Look where it lead to: misery and confusion.

It is my opinion now that many people simply are not ready to be believed, what they say is often not such that one could simply take seriously. Many people don't really respect what they say, don't respect themselves or me. Many don't really care about themselves, about their message, about me.

This is my preliminary conclusion of the exercize to believe everyone and everything.
Despite this rational-sounding conclusion, I am very distraught that things are this way in this world.

I know that if I had something which I knew would be precious and worthy, I would not throw around with it mindlessly and carelessly as if it were dirt.

Some people will then hate me for my silence and be angry with me, accuse me of hypocrisy, a hidden agenda and such.
It has already happened.

It could help to put yourself in my shoes, and in the shoes of many other people. But perhaps such is not your motivation anyway.