There is no such 'thing' as energy.

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by ColinT, May 29, 2018.

  1. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Electrical energy calculations
    The amount of electrical energy transferred to an appliance depends on its power and the length of time it is switched on. The amount of mains electrical energy transferred is measured in kilowatt-hours, kWh. One unit is 1 kWh.

    E = P × t

    • E is the energy transferred in kilowatt-hours, kWh
    • P is the power in kilowatts, kW
    • T is the time in hours, h.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebi...ergyefficiency/electricalappliancesrev1.shtml

    Does this neuter the claim in original post?

    "All calculation of energy requires the inclusion of a value for mass. If mass is unknown, energy cannot be calculated"

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  3. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    Non existent?!

    I don't have a clue as to how anyone could prove that in any way. All you can say is that you don't know about "my green", or even green in general, the latter I would agree doesn't exist. But the green you experience? Really? It doesn't exist?! Whoa! I might as well believe you don't exist.

    Personally, I am much more certain of the existence of green, at least whenever I experience green, than of anything like the measure of energy or the the measure of a quantity of matter. In fact, I actually know green whenever I experience green. Something you know cannot possibly not exist. Whereas the best I can do as to the physical world is to believe in its existence. In fact, all I have is an impression that my perception of a tree is a real tree; impression, it's true, I can't shake. But some people have a condition whereby they no longer have that impression. Yet, they still know green whenever they experience green, if at all possible.

    We seem to get our sense of a physical world through our senses. And it seems there's nothing we can do about that. Everything we believe about the physical world can only be mediated through our subjective experience, things like green and pain and hunger. The only thing we actually know is our subjective experience itself and then only on the moment. Everything else, we have to trust that they exist from our subjective impressions that they do. If you think your subjective experience doesn't exist, it must be because you have a very definite impression that it doesn't exist. But that would be illogical, since such a subjective impression could not possibly exist.

    PS. Beats me.
    EB
     
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  5. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. It's ballocks. Electrical energy obviously depends ultimately on the force due to electrostatic charge, which is nothing to do with mass. The OP is confusing this with the dimensions of energy, which are ML²/T² and thus contain mass.
     
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  7. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Please send 2 Oz of green to your nearest Scientists to confirm its composition

    Please note you must send ONLY green

    No physical material allowed

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  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Coming your way! It should take about 43ms to get there.
     
  9. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    If you have sent a light wave of a certain frequency i have already explained

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  10. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    I don't need to send anything, It's always been on your side of the river too.


    EB
     
  11. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Oh you didn't notice

    I didn't ask it to be sent to me

    I requested you
    This request was made to reassure you that what you had was in fact "GREEN"

    But I understand you backing down since you never found any

    Reason "GREEN" does not exist

    Very much the opposite of energy which does exist

    Your failure at being Humpty Dumpty is noted

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  12. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry, you're not making sense here.

    Please send me what you mean by postal service, port prepaid. I'll see what I can do.
    EB
     
  13. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    I think the post speak for themselves

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  14. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    And I already replied to that.

    Further, although I doubt it very much, the fact is that for all I know you might be a p-zombie. And in any event, if you don't know green, and indeed any of our so-called qualia, there's absolutely nothing I could do for you. Maybe you're just a bad case of p-zombiness. I feel for you, that's all I can do.
    EB
     
  15. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Bottom line you havn't any "GREEN" to send away to have it checked

    OK

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  16. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    Sure, I can't send green by post but could you send me a photograph of energy? A photograph of space-time? Of the Big Bang? Could you send me one kilo of space-time? One meter of energy? When you're at your local car dealer, do you ask them for one kilo of car? Or one metre? I don't thinks so.

    Beside, I already replied to your point. Either you're a p-zombie or you know green just as well as I do, in which case I don't need to send anything. And if you're a p-zombie, you'll excuse me but I don't have to care about what you think.

    Well, I guess all has been said on a rather simple question. You've been repeating yourself a lot and I didn't have to do better than that. The case is closed.
    EB
     
  17. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    Despite mutable background conditions introducing contingent variations, most people not suffering from a range of color-blindness could agree that spring and summer leaves are green. Color actually has a good degree of inter-subjective consensus (objective in that respect). The commonsense realist can construe [the qualitative meaning of] color as a public property of visual objects rather than a private one (except, again, in those cases where the subject has a physiological or psychological condition).

    Where the issues arise is when an abstract model of the external world is treated as "real" and the original one sported by sensation is demoted to representation or illusory status (metempirical orientations like scientific realism would be applicable here, where [the qualitative meaning of] color and other phenomenal properties are eliminated).

    It boils down to the age-old wrestling match between the immediate and given contents of experience (manifestation) and the delayed and inferred products of reason (reflective thought).

    The latter rationalist enterprise strips away the original empirical content and replaces it with abstract description. Perhaps largely quantitative and formulaic in the case of science; but a spectrum extending from ordinary language / symbolism to technical nomenclature with respect to older and largely non-cullable metaphysical proposals.

    The abstract version of the "external world" (or map of causal relationships) constructed by the rationalist activity eventually comes to be regarded as the "real world", replacing the original one of sensation (or the outer, extrospective half of experience). A figurative analogy would be climbing up from the ground (the intuitive or manifested environment) via a ladder (reasoning in conjunction with later experiments) and reaching the roof (the new "real world"), and then kicking the ladder away as if dogmatically pretending that one had always been on the roof (as if it was the original source or starting point of knowledge).

    If we set aside rival views or thought orientations like panpsychism... Then normally the situation of "matter" or the cosmos abroad is just like ours upon death: Neither empirical nor intellectual evidence of anything. Just oblivion: an "invisible" or "blind" manner of existence which cannot even validate itself until conscious processes arise that yield experience (manifestations, feelings) and cognition (discrimination, recognition, conceptual understanding of phenomena and events). A p-zombie would by definition or lack of experiences be restricted to that "not even nothingness" type of existence; and would thereby lack "shown verification" of its intellectual arguments and inferential thoughts occurring (as would otherwise be exhibited by introspective audible "voice narratives", images, and whatever).

    ~
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  18. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    That's too many words for me to make sure I can agree with the whole of what you say here but it seems nonetheless broadly OK to me.

    I would dispute your notion that we can come to believe somehow more forcefully into any abstract model of the "external world" than he does naive realism. Nobody can do that. I have my own abstract theory contradicting naive realism and yet I still strongly believe there's not even a physical world but really a material world.

    The situation seems to me that we have what I call an impression that our perceptions are the external world. I don't think anyone can shake off that impression outside certain medical conditions affecting the brain. We can obviously build abstract models of the physical world but we can't get to believe in them more than we believe in naive realism. We're hardwired to that effect. I guess just to make sure we don't jump off tall buildings for no good reason.

    Maybe I'll come back on that rather long piece but, again, broadly, we seem to agree. So I won't be alone to have idiotic ideas if that's what this is!
    EB
     
  19. NotEinstein Valued Senior Member

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    1,500
    I may be missing something, but how is the existence of a color related to:
    - the existence of a photograph of something that's probably not directly photographable;
    - the existence of a photograph of something that's definitely not directly photographable;
    - the existence of a photograph of something that cannot be photographed (an event from before photography was possible);
    - a nonsensical thing (2x);
    - a silly measure/unit (2x)?

    I don't understand the purpose of these weird comparisons? Let's grant that one cannot make a photograph of energy; does that mean the color green exists, or not? What's the logic behind your argument?
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    14,162
    You said send some green to a scientist to confirm its composition. That's easy. Green is defined as a color between yellow and blue on the spectrum; to be more accurate, light with a predominant wavelength between 495–570 nanometers. So if I sent a 532nm laser beam to a scientist, he could verify its wavelength and tell you "yes, I can testify that that is green" - and that conclusion would hold up anywhere. (Sending 2oz of green would be harder, since light has an almost immeasurable weight, but it's possible.)

    You sound like what you are saying is that a scientist can't measure a PERCEPTION of green. But as that is true of every possible perception of a physical quantity/force (of gravity, of length, of weight) it's hardly interesting.
    See above. Let me know where you want it.
     
  21. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    1,882
    It's not an idea, but a simplified account of the situation. There are two items which the expression "external world" references: The one which is self-evident or given in the extrospective half of our experiences; and the speculative or metaphysical one[*] which the original inspires and falls out of later from rational / theoretical activity. If we believe the latter was the arse-backwards starting point or is "prior in rank" epistemologically, then we fit the figurative example of those on the roof who have kicked the ladder away and pretend they have always been there.

    - - - footnote - - -

    [*] Actually there's a variety of those abstract "idiocies" in the specific sense which reason has concocted, inferred, etc over the centuries. But they're subsumed under the general category.

    ~
     
  22. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    No - but with the correct equipment can show you its existence

    The rest of the paragraph is crap

    GREEN is a CONCERT
    CONCEPTS do not have physicality
    Physicality is a requirement to exist
    GREEN does not exist

    ex·ist
    \ig-ˈzist\
    • :to have actual being: to be real
    • :to continue to be or to live
    con·cept
    \ˈkän-ˌsept\
    noun
    • :an idea of what something is or how it works
    Mirriam-Webster

    • Outside Color' by Dr Mazviita Chirimuuta explores historical debates
    • It suggests that colour doesn't exist - at least not in the literal sense
    • Instead it exists in our minds, or in the way that people interpret light
    • Until we have a way to describe something, we may not see its there
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-BRAIN-Book-argues-simply-construct-mind.html

    Check the example in the link

    Breakfast time

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  23. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    See previous post

    Check the link

    You can send a copy of the top colour or bottom colour when you work out what they are

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