There is no heaven when the brain is unconscious

Moderator note: This thread was split from another thread, for which the following discussion was off topic. For other parts of the discussion, see the following threads:

Relationship of agnosticism to theist/atheism
Why do people believe in God?

Especially if compared to Anil Seth (neural scientist) proven claim that consciousness disappears altogether when the brain dies and conscious information processing stops.

The proof lies in anesthesia (Hameroff).
Note that the unconscious homeostatic control remains active even as the person is under anesthesia.

 

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There is no heaven when the brain is rendered unconscious under anesthesia. Nor is there when the brain is rendered unconscious when dead. Both states promise oblivion.

 

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You're going to have to explain the relevance, I'm afraid. Pascal's wager has nothing to do, either in content or form, to the point you're trying to make.

You do know that the point of replying to, and quoting, someone is to respond with something that is actually relevant to what you're quoting, right? At the moment it seems as though you are just quoting and then saying anything you want. That approach is not conducive to discussion.

 

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It has to do with consciousness and the oblivion that accompanies unconsciousness (from anesthesia).
There is no heaven when under anesthesia.
It would follow that there is no heaven when the brain is dead. Is that not what falsification is all about?

Now that I have explained my POV and its relevance, does that make a difference?

 

Not that I buy any kind of afterlife, but such a neural scientist claim seems to be equivalent to proving that a radio station goes off the air when the radio is smashed. I may agree with the conclusion, but not the validity of the proof.

 

True, but it does prove that you are prevented from receiving the data. For you there would be neither heaven nor hell when you are unconscious.

Religion claims that consciousness (the aware soul) continues after dead, but IMO, that has been disproved.

 

Something being disproved or not is not a matter of opinion. It has or it hasn't been disproved.
If it has, I'd love to see this proof. I pretty much guarantee it is fallacious.

For starters, not all believers in some sort of 'afterlife' believe in 'the aware soul'. The latter seems a more specific claim that needs disproving, and the former a more general claim. Again, I'm not suggesting an afterlife.

 

And why is that? What knowledge gives you confidence that the Eiffel tower exists?

It will for you and that is the important part isn't it?

 

Poor old JR being put under a general anesthetic and having his microtubules disappearing along with the Eiffel Tower, may mean JR can’t regain consciousness according to W4U. "Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?"

 

This is another one, homeostasis is complex system involving all sorts of tissues and chemical feedback systems.
I do not why you keep referring to it in discussions on consciousness.

 

No, the microtubules will not disappear. Under anesthesia they become deactivated and the result is loss of consciousness. When consciousness disappears, total oblivion follows until the anesthesia is reversed by the anesthesiologist such as Stuart Hameroff.

If you cannot recognize heaven under anesthesia, you won't recognize heaven when you are brain dead. So even if there is a heaven, when you are dead, you cannot recognize it. Consciousness resides in the brain. Take the brain away, no consciousness at all of any kind. There is total oblivion. Nothing to worry about. Nothing at all!

I wish I could persuade you to watch this excellent short lecture by Anil Seth.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo

 

Yes, they are still there just like the Eiffel Tower.
So, why should a heaven (assuming one exists) disappear when someone is under a general anesthetic?

 

Because under anesthesia you become an object, total oblivion. It's called "vegetable state".
Do plants go to heaven?

Even if we assume there is a heaven, how far does a soul have to travel without loss?
And if you don't know if you are in heaven, the concept of heaven becomes moot, no?

If the soul exists within the brain microtubules and the microtubules experience total catastrophe (inability to transmit data), I'm afraid the soul would..."fade"?

The human-invented concept of soul only applies to humans. The hubris is astounding.
The only "energy" that leaves your brain when you are dead is "heat" and as a result, all the dynamic patterns of the neural network experience collapse along with all the "information" contained therein.

 

How do you know? How do you know that when you actually die your spirit, your soul, whatever you want to call it, does not "wake up" again in heaven? How do you know? I'm not asking how you know that we can not recognise heaven under anesthesia, but how do you know that your conclusion is true, that this means that when we die there is just total oblivion? It is an unwarranted jump that takes it from being knowledge to merely a belief on your part. A reasonable one, sure, but that's not the point.
Sure, for the mortal body there is no heaven, but the mortal body doesn't go to heaven, or so the idea goes. So, no, you're making claims you can't support. The question of heaven is outside the scope of science, yet you're linking your claims to what science can show you. Realise that, and understand that.

You could persuade me by summarising what the video aims to show, what it argues, how it helps the discussion in this thread.

And on that point, you've derailed this thread again. Please stop doing that.
This thread is not about why you are an atheist, or an agnostic, or why some people believe. It is about the relationship between agnosticism and a/theism. Not once have you actually addressed that issue, but instead used this thread as yet another chance to push your claims regarding microtubules, and regarding Tegmark's position.
Please stop.

 

No, it's not called "vegetable state", or even the correct term "vegetative state" (VS). Being under anesthetic is more similar to a coma than a VS, as the VS is commonly identified by significantly reduced brain-stem activity. In a coma or under general anaesthetic the brain-stem activity is not so severely reduced.

Not according to scripture. But your equivocation of "vegetable" is noted.

Who says there is any loss for a soul?

How do you know they would not recognise heaven?

IF. Where in any religious text does it say that the soul exists within the brain, let alone within microtubules? It doesn't. I think you are possibly confusing "soul" with your ideas of "consciousness" of the material body.

That is your belief, sure.

And thus ends the material form. That's rarely disputed. Unfortunately you now need to move your discussion to that of the relationship between agnosticism and a/theism. All you're doing at the moment is derailing another thread so that you can talk about your microtubules or Tegmark. Please stop doing that.

 

Okay, now that this line of discussion has been split out, Write4U, feel free to post in this thread to your heart's content as to why you think there is no heaven when the brain is unconscious, and how you aim to prove it. Or maybe you'd like to accept that the issue of heaven is outside of science's purview, and that you're therefore talking beyond what you could possibly know?

 

Even if non-living matter activity was still internally manifesting as primitive events (randomly), there would no longer be a memory-dependent cognitive system available for identifying and understanding those, as well as validating such was even present.
_

 

Absolutely.
It is estimated that it takes several minutes before all brain activity stops. But that is not the question.

The question if heaven exists is moot if you cannot experience it. And when the brain dies all experience stops. Total oblivion. And we know what oblivion means by the effects of anesthesia, which causes temporary experiential total conscious oblivion.