The Word "Infidel"

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by Michael, Nov 3, 2010.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I took a look again and many MANY Muslims believe that Houri have pearl white almost translucent skin and Muslims have believed this for millennial. It's not really that surprising to me as this whole episode of non-menstruating/urinating/defecating/childfree (being able to have a short pregnancy lasting an hour) taunt 20 something bodied virgins are even MORE asinine than a 15 year old teenagers wet-dream.

    So, you can take your apologetic up with the Imam's I suppose. they're the experts and as the Qur'an is "Perfect" I'm sure they know perfectly well what color skin heaven's hookers have.
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    One last note: Another interpretation (and probably the correct one) is that you are rewarded not with virgins but with WHITE raisins. Which is interesting, in this academic interpretation of the Qur'an these prizes in heaven are still WHITE colored (virgins or raisins). So, it stands to reason that the Imam's interpretation of a White virgin is probably closer to the truth (much of Muslim heaven is White anyway - it's association with purity and all these virgin girls and all).
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I imagine it would be similar to a woman in a man's restroom.

    That does not mean you cut off the penises of men so they can sit down to pee. It only means that you have to accomodate differences in society. How do you imagine Muslim schoolgirls who have opted out of a schooling system that prevents them from wearing a scarf feel? I'm wondering what happens if there is someone undergoing chemotherapy who comes to school wearing a headscarf in France. Will they rip it off as well?

    I have to say, I don't know how you meant this thread but you've clarified for me how thought terminating cliches work.
     
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, those poor little white-trash WASP racists who only wanted to live in peace in their little ghetto spooning their racist ideology in peace. Gee, who'd of thunk people would be offended by their klanhoods? I mean geewhiz, it's against their ideology to allow the inferior races to gaze upon their women.


    THIS is how you sound SAM. You're making the exact same argument. Do you REALLY think labeling people as "Infidel" is moral, ethical and well thought out? How about nigger?




    I opt for the need of proper education. I'm positive if we blend Buddhists with Christians with Hindu with Muslim with Jewish children in classrooms - that this idea of Infidel will peter out all of it's own accord - along with a lot of the aspects of monotheism, like only One God and "Perfect" Revelation. And all without any State intervention at all. As a matter of fact, I've seen it. Anyway, you're on the wrong side of history on this one SAM. So don't be shocked when the Islam of tomorrow finds your support of the word Infidel abhorrent. Actually, by that time, I'm positive you'll of come around

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    People are funny like that.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm lets see

    infidel: someone who rejects a particular faith

    well Michael, do you think we should acknowledge the people who reject a particular faith? I don't see any problem with that. What is your opinion of the word lesbian, homosexual, autistic, female, intelligent, arrogant, slow and fiesty? Do you think we should acknowledge these? If you want to eliminate all the words that distinguish people by belief, I would like to ask why. Do you have a problem with the existence of belief systems? Of people considering their own belief systems as valid? What is your opinion of the word woo-woo, creationist, extremist, fundamentalist or even athiest, rationalist, existentialist, nihilist, empiricist, democrat, libertarian, feminist, misogynist? Are you of the opinion that all beliefs should be eliminated because people prefer their own? Or do you simply prefer not to have or use a label to describe a belief or a rejection of other beliefs because you feel excluded?

    Now nigger, well I have no problem with the word nigger. Or the word racist. They are labels and like all labels have their uses. Instead of nigger, which is a fancy way of saying negro or niger we now say black or coloured, all of which mean the same thing: Not white. Then there is redneck which is nigger for whites. Reds which is nigger for well, Indians of American origin and brown which is nigger for Indians of non-American origin and other non-white peoples in their vicinity. So we have a colour system of so called pejoratives. So is white a pejorative too? How about the term black American? Doesn't that exclude all non-black Americans?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2010
  9. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Accomodate our differences! But not yours

    Yet the only differences you opt for are those that meet your particular religious preferences. In other threads, you've told us that discrimination against religious minorities in the Islamic world is all right - that they can shut up or get out. So your sensibilities are a little less sensible than you like to think.
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If you note, I said the same thing about Muslims who cannot adapt to the Islamophobia in the west. That they should leave, asap. I'm a firm believer in the vote with your feet edict if you do not have the patience or resources to fight back.
     
  11. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    But neither of these words was coined deliberately for that purpose. The N-word is simply a dialect pronunciation of "negro," which itself is simply an Americanized pronunciation of Spanish negro, a completely unremarkable adjective meaning "black"; in Spanish an adjective with an article is a stand-in for a person, so el negro means "the black person." "Infidel" originally meant literally "a person without (our) faith," a handy standardized shorthand replacing the awkward "non-Christian," "non-Muslim," "non-Jewish," etc. depending on the perspective of the speaker/writer. Both of these words acquired their derogatory connotations later.

    Derogatoriness is rather ephemeral and it's not always easy to know which words offend in any era. Today many descendants of the pre-colonial inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere (and you can certainly see why we all want a shorter way to say that!) prefer to be called "Native Americans" because, after all, Indians are from India. But many others take the opposite position since, as I've been told patiently, I am a "native American" because I was born in Chicago. In Canada the new term is "First Nations," but it hasn't caught on down here yet.
    It was a first step, and like many first steps in breaking from the strictures of the past, especially in America, it turned into a huge pendulum swing. Without any good academic underpinnings, the feminist movement started with two vectors: 1) Blind reversal of all past feminine standards; 2) Adoption of stereotypical masculine behavior--and all of this with very little regard for real differences in biology.
    Abusing the freedom to show off their bodies after being gloved, veiled and corseted is just a textbook example of the pendulum swing. Using that freedom to exploit their own sexuality to gain fame, fortune or simply attention is a textbook example of ignoring real biological differences.
    I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm certain there is no society on earth where women are legally required to wear bikinis in public.
    Only the wealthy can afford it. Once the knock-offs hit the market it's no longer haute and the wealthy move on to the next iteration.
    You obviously don't understand the concept of "fashion." There is no freedom in it; it's all about conformity. Look up the definition of the word "fashion" and you'll find such constraints as "prevailing custom" and "conventional usage." People who don't follow fashion are the "non-conformists" and they're the ones practicing freedom of expression.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats how I define haute couture.

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  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    That's not how the dictionary defines it.
    The handful of people who design "high fashion" are innovators. But the people who wear it (first!) are simply following their influence. The people who wear the perfect Chinese copies a few months later are sheep.

    As I said previously, "fashion" is just another word for "conformity."
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Or the moral wherewithal, given things elsewhere in that world you do not criticize.

    Why should not those French Muslims unwilling to comply with the ban simply pick up and leave? Why even mention "fight back"? Is this a judicious selection of possibilities in that situtation? Do French Muslims have an historical right to being in France equivalent to that of non-Muslims in, say, Iraq?

    The 'Islamophobia' of the West is a very trivial and hyperbolic thing compared to the everything-else-o-phobia of Dar al-Islam.
     
  15. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, provided you do so even-handedly. And since literally everyone that has ever lived has rejected at least one particular faith, it follows immediately that "infidel" is simply a synonym for "person" (when used consistently).

    The problem is that everyone who uses the word operates under the defintion "someone who rejects my particular faith."
     
  16. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Terms that are created to refer to The Other quickly and inevitably become derrogatory, regardless of how vanilla their origins may or may not be. The function of othering is always malign, consciously or otherwise.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    "Nigger" is not a "fancy way of saying negro or niger". "Redneck" is not nigger for whites. "Reds" is not nigger for anything, neither is "brown" or "coloured".
    As you might notice, all those words label by attribute.

    "Intelligent" or "female" is not used for the rejection of an attribute, but for the possession of one. That's one reason such terms are not necessarily pejorative - that depends on the attribute possessed, and the situation.

    "Infidel" is recognized as a pejorative, as a derogatory term of inculcated bigotry, in part because it is used without regard to the attributes of the person labeled. It dehumanizes.
    You don't? There are all kinds of people who reject a particular faith - how are you planning to "acknowledge" such a comprehensive and incoherent variety, with a term? You can't.

    And so you don't. The word "infidel" specifically and significantly refuses acknowledgment of other people's beliefs.
    I'll bet there are bikers and other gang bangers who compare being refused admission to a bar or school because they are wearing their colors to castration, as well.

    But it is impossible to take such ridiculous comparisons seriously. Leave your colors at home, and your genitalia are safe. You might even learn something.
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    SAM, who are you kidding, me or you? You can easily refer to someone by their faith. He's a Buddhist. She's of Native American faith. When you say: He's an Infidel, you're saying a lot more than just they aren't a Muslim. You're insinuating that not only they are not of your faith, but there is something inherently wrong with their belief system. See, that's the thing that sucks about monotheism - they're inherently intolerant and inclined towards Religious Bigotry. Which we used to see a lot of in Christiandom and still see in countries that are so-called Islamic.

    It's much easier to segregate people once you put the proper degrading label on them. Whether it be WASP Skin Head, Muslim Terrorist, Nigger or Infidel. Yes, sometimes is useful to label people. But, why don't you stop and think about that. WHY are people labeled Terrorists? WHY are people labeled Niggers? WHY say Skin-Head.

    WHY use the word Infidel?

    You know perfectly why Muslims use the word Infidel and what the meaning of that word entails. If you ever wonder why French Citizens are banning the Burka and why people from the once extremely liberal Netherlands over to easy going Thai have a problem with Islam and Muslims - think on this word you're defending.

    White Raisins indeed.

    Ask a Black American what it's like to be labeled a Nigger. Then tell her it's just a word to distinguish people who aren't of a lighter complexion. Like the very small and meager handful of White raisins you'll receive from Allah in heaven for defending Her religious bigotry. If there is a conscious entity measuring your actions and ethical behavior, I'm sure you're receiving a failing grade.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I suppose I might agree with you if that was a little less strident. There are no absolutes in life (including this statement). Replace "inevitably" and "always" with something a little more realistic.
    I never said it was "fancy" and Sam's choice of words is remarkably odd. It was originally nothing more than a dialect pronunciation by people who still can't quite speak proper English.

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    We tell the little Muslim girl to leave her scarf at home and she'll be safe and welcome in school. And she might even learn something. Asking her to violate a religious ritual is perhaps slightly more outrageous than asking a Crip or a Blood to leave his jacket at home.

    On the other hand, Muslim leaders in Saudi Arabia, the land that has appointed itself the arbiter of all things Muslim (at least Sunni), have already told Muslim women in other lands to obey the laws of those lands rather than start World War III over a stupid piece of cloth. (My words, obviously, not theirs.)

    I'm breathlessly waiting for the Grand Patriarch of the Chassidic Jews, or whatever his title is, to tell his people the same thing about their quaint customs.
     
  20. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    That's a feature of religious fundamentalism, not monotheism as such. There are plenty of monotheists who don't go in for this crap, and plenty of other religions that do.

    Tell you what: provide me a solid counter-example, and I'll reappraise from there.

    Who is "we" there? France (and now apparently Belgium)?

    We should resist S.A.M.'s persistent attempts to conflate localized, marginal phenomena like this with The West as a whole. Or at least carve out a pointed exception for the United States, where this crap doesn't fly at all. It is perverse that this dialogue always seems to end up with various Americans arguing in favor of French laws that Americans in general stridently disapprove of.
     
  21. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

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    ???

    America elected the best President ever! Long-legged mack daddy Obama. He's black you know. Racism has ended. Kill non-believers and Republicans.
     
  22. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    That's a great post there, boy.

    /pats head

    Now why don't you go back to your coloring books and I'll bring you a snack when it's time for your nap.
     
  23. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you!

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