The Word "Infidel"

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by Michael, Nov 3, 2010.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sorry, but that's just goofy. Clueless.

    You keep repeating that, you need some evidence: Please post a picture of anyone in the public eye who looks as black as Obama who is accepted as white by the US public. Mexican, Indian, Cuban, Arab, anyone.
     
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  3. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

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    On the subject of the burkha, I have seen MEN wearing them. Obviously illegals or terrorists. One on Coventry, and one in Birmingham.
     
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  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    His hair has "African American" written all over it - note that the producers of the "whiteface" image in question made a point of dramatically altering his hair type there. Nobody with Obama's hair is going to pass as white in the United States, regardless of skin color. His facial features are also notably African American (particularly the nose).

    The repeated assertion that races are assigned via individual "choice" in the United States is preposterous. It's never worked that way, and probably never will. Races are assigned collectively, by strangers, based on physical appearance, without any input or appeal from the people being categorized.

    You might be right about the "without a second thought" part, though. It's just that the first thought would be "no, you're obviously black. Nice try."
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
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  7. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Not "all Indians in America are Brahmins," but "all Hindu Indians I run across in America are Brahmins." There is no shortage of Indian Sikhs, Muslims, Jains and Christians. And I'm sure there are plenty of other castes around, just I never encoutner them (since they don't attend college or work in engineering, or even live in the same cities that I do).

    Or an Indian Sikh, Jain, Muslim or Christian. Apparently it was only in recently years that the Indian American Hindu population outstripped the Indian American Sikh population. I'd wager dollars to donuts that every Indian restaurant you've ever eaten in in the US has been run by Sikhs. The stereotype of turban-wearing cab drivers and convenience store owners and hotelliers? Those are Sikhs.

    Most tend to come around to the idea once grandchildren start appearing. At the end of the day, it can be rather impractical to expect your kids to restrict their spouse poor to a tiny fraction of the US population, even if you'd prefer it that way.
     
  8. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    Fraggle
    Not every Hindu in the west is a Brahmin. But caste data of such emmigrants is not maintained. But it is a fact that most Indians in IT and faculties are in fact mostly Brahmins, so are those who do doctorates.

    Patels are into motels in a big way. They are not Brahmins. Hindu diamond merchants, mostly Gujaratis, too are not Brahmins.


    Post muslim occupation, traditional Indian education system suffered. Brahmins and traders were the nearly only communities who kept alive traditions of education. During British occupation, the Brahmins enthusiatically took to modern education, easily mastered the foreign languages. No wonder they are dominant in knowledge sectors. Plus, they have the ability of seperating their faith and spirituality from the profession. No knowledge is a taboo. After all, even Kama Sutra is the work of a Brahmin sage.

    Factoid: During Mughal period, the Dewans ie Imperial equivalent of an Accountant General, were always drawn from Bania, trader, castes. Mughal emperors did not trust muslims for this job. Such dewans posted at the provinces kept a hawke's eye on the activities of the governors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  9. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    Obama bent over backwards to whitewash his black ancestory. So what if my father was a black, but my mother was a WHITE. PLUS I was raised by my WHITE grand parents. Also think what a devout xian I am!! And he succeeded too.
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    /sigh

    Look up the meanings of the word khair and hasanah as in Jazakallah khair, Sabah al khair,

    http://wahiduddin.net/words/arabic_glossary.htm

    This is why Muslims keep the Arabic Quran along with all translations

    Even fair has more than one meaning.


    1. free from discrimination, dishonesty, etc; just; impartial
    2. in conformity with rules or standards; legitimate: a fair fight
    3. (of the hair or complexion) light in colour
    4. beautiful or lovely to look at
    5. moderately or quite good: a fair piece of work
    6. unblemished; untainted
    7. (of the tide or wind) favourable to the passage of a vessel
    8. sunny, fine, or cloudless
    9. informal ( prenominal ) thorough; real: a fair battle to get to the counter
    10. pleasant or courteous
    11. apparently good or valuable, but really false: fair words
    12. open or unobstructed: a fair passage
    13. ( Austral ) (of handwriting) clear and legible
    14. informal a fair crack of the whip , a fair shake of the dice , a fair go a fair opportunity; fair chance
    15. fair and square in a correct or just way
    16. fair do's
    a. equal shares or treatment
    b. an expression of appeal for equal shares or treatment
    17. fair enough! an expression of agreement
    18. informal ( Austral ), ( NZ ) fair go! come off it!; I don't believe it!
    19. fair to middling about average

    — adv
    20. in a fair way; correctly: act fair, now!
    21. absolutely or squarely; quite: the question caught him fair off his guard
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2010
  11. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    I have met private citizens who have done that, but they don't have bios and photo albums.

    I don't think a lot of people in the public eye want to. Since the dawn of Affirmative Discrimination in the 1960s, the trend has been just the opposite--at least in cities, outside the South, where most Americans live and where racism is muted. People with one grandparent who wasn't "white" check that box on the form and sign up for the benefits. People like Vanessa Williams, whose African ancestry is barely discernible in today's Melting Pot, proudly count themselves as "black." People who have Spanish surnames because their ancestors came from Spain--even Sephardic Jews!--call themselves "Hispanic" and get the preference in college admissions and government employment applications that was meant for people of Latin American ancestry. Look at Linda Ronstadt and Bill Richardson, my two highest-profile examples.

    As I mentioned before, a friend's brother, of pure Nordic stock, frizzed up his hair and convinced everyone in high school that he was "black" because it seemed that the "black" kids had all the fun.
    Bull pucky. I can name two, both of whom had one grandparent of African ancestry. Perhaps you're too young to remember the days when even Asian-American women were getting Afro hairdos. It was in vogue and it's still done. Today nobody can tell if the tight curls are real or not, and nobody cares.
    People in Africa don't think so. When he was elected, reporters dutifully interviewed people in Africa to find out how they felt about "one of them" finally making it to the White House. They didn't understand why anyone thinks he's one of them, since to them he looks like just one more "white" man.

    Without the dark skin, I think you have to look really hard to see the African heritage in his face, and you can't help also noting the European heritage.
    These days, with the boundaries between the races blurred, the millions of people of "mixed race" are assigned to the community they identify with. Obama had a choice and he picked the Afro-American community.
    Sorry, I was just quoting what someone else said.
    I've met plenty of Sikhs and one Christian, but no Muslims.
    Huh??? He chose to become a member of Chicago's Afro-American community and he married an Afro-American wife. I don't quite see the whitewash.
     
  12. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

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    1,996
    We are going way off track here methinks
     
  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Yeah, but Lingustics doesn't get much traffic. I usually let discussions wander as long as they don't stray too far from culture or the human sciences.
     
  14. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

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  15. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    There are people of various backgrounds who can "pass" as various races. They are a marginal phenomenon, and if anything are the exceptions that prove the rules you are disputing.

    Not that people don't game systems like that for advantage, but the overall implication is ludicrous. In the first place, your race isn't decided by what box you check on a college application, but by what visual impressions you create in strangers, in advance of any interaction with them. In the second place, whiteness still possesses overwhelming cache, and the vast majority of people exaggerate their whiteness and downplay their non-whiteness. The gaming of affirmative action and the like are, again, exceptions that prove the rule - it wouldn't be gaming at all if those people weren't actually white.

    This is even more preposterous than the suggestions that Obama could pass as white. Rashida Jones, maybe, but Vanessa Williams?

    Given that such is all "Hispanic" really means - it's not a "race" - I don't think that's a terribly pertinent example. Might be a different story if they were calling themselves "Latinos," but even that is supposed to include broad swaths of Americans (including some white ones).

    Not sure what you think those examples demonstrate - those are both authentically Hispanic people, of significant Mexican descent. Again, one can be both "white" and "Hispanic."

    While doubting the extent to which he truly "convinced" anyone, I'll point out that the fact that he made a point of altering his hair to look "black" as (apparently) the primary component in this transformation goes to show the overriding importance of appearance in race designations.

    I have no particular reason to doubt you, but invoking a few people who have passed again proves nothing - especially absent any photos of them.

    It's not done by non-black people with any significant frequency, and so remains one of the primary signifiers of blackness in the US. People care quite a bit, as evidenced by the extreme lengths that African Americans will go to in order to camoflogue their hair type in contexts where they are catering to mainstream white expectations (particularly women).

    You've said that several times before, and it still has absolutely nothing to do with how races in the US operate. That some foreigners aren't sensitive to our racial divisions is normal and expected, and does nothing to weaken them. I'd have a hard time distinguishing between various east Asian races, but that would rob them of none of their power in those societies.

    It's literally as plain as the nose on his face.

    "European heritage" is a normal, expected component of blackness. Perhaps the problem is that you're confusing "black" with "African?"

    When, exactly, was he presented with this choice? How, exactly, could he have gone about choosing to be 'white.' Because in the country I live in, your race gets assigned by strangers on sight, in advance of any input from you. Nobody bothers to ask you which community you've associated yourself with before assigning a race to you.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    It seems a large number of Muslim men take it to mean fair in complexion. As in fair skinned. As in white. As in like white pearls SAM. Silky, milky white pearl skin. The kind you can get if you drink, rub and eat Fair and Beautiful whitening cosmetic creme ...

    Qur'an 56:22-23
    And (there will be) companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,-
    Like unto pearls well-guarded.


    Yes, pearly white smooth flawless skin. Not dark. Pearl White. That's how Big Daddy likes his Houri. That sort of pearl skin only Fair and Beautiful gives a Whore, errr Houri.

    Which makes sense if you stop to think about it.
    Allah likes White chicks.
    I find white a bore.
    Hence I'm atheist. :shrug:




    HERE: A 15 year old boy describes his wet dreams

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    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    African-American, thought-terminating cliche'?
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Now thats a thought terminating cliche. I bet a lot of "Muslim men" would know the meaning of khairun [good] and hasanah [of all things that appeal to the senses, the mind and the body ie physical, spiritual and moral] and see how "fair" makes an adequate though not accurate translation. Unless of course, they are uneducated in the language of the Quran and have never wished anyone Good night [Shabba khair] in Urdu or Good morning [Sabah al khair] in Arabic or prayed the common prayer of all Muslims:

    Rabbana atina fid-dunya hasanatan wa fil 'akhirati hasanatan waqina 'adhaban-nar [2:201]

    Yes, I am pretty sure that there are superficial ignorant and moronic Muslims like that, but if thats how seriously they take their own religion, its hardly surprising that they think all the hasanah in this life or the hereafter is fair complexioned women.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Hey, it's not me, it's Allah. I don't find pearly skinned well-guarded virgin chicks attractive. Allah didn't ask me for my opinion or I could have help fix up some of these retarded sections. I didn't even make that level of heaven.

    Qur'an 56:22-23
    And (there will be) companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,-
    Like unto pearls well-guarded.



    :shrug:
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You're not thinking hasanah you're thinking houri, even wikipedia does a good job on that.

    Nevertheless it is interesting that inspite of the Quran being gender and species neutral on these subjects, how many men out there consider they deserve white skinned virgins. Its hardly surprising then that houri in English is a voluptuous alluring seductive woman. I guess there are going to be a lot of disappointed dicks in the hereafter
     
  21. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    721
    Thanks to YOU.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, mythology aside, what I found interesting was that men from 1200 years ago thought pearl White skin attractive enough to offer them up as "companions".

    You really think the Qur'an is gender neutral? Really? Please tell me your not eating Fair and Beautiful again!?!?

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    The only reason I ask is because I've never heard you refer to Allah as She. I mean, if you're going to be gender neutral I'd expect an occasional She pronoun to be used - it's not like Allah has a penis. Yet, I have never heard a Muslim refer to Allah as She. Always He. Hmmmm it's almost as if your religion is not gender neutral.


    Good Gods, I'm sure "She" would be such a thought-terminating cliche' in Islam as to rock those pearly Companions right out of the Heavens! Seriously, as if Allah could ever be good enough to be referred to as a She. Nope, not going to happen

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    As if anyone is going to think a horny 15 year old boy is an adult woman!
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    On the luster of pearls:

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    So is pearl "white" skin a thought terminating cliche? After all, aren't black eyes more likely than white ones?

    And (there will be) companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,-
    Like unto pearls
    well-guarded.


    Meanwhile:

    Ideally, Allah should not be referred to either as she or he. Every Muslim knows that Allah has no gender. The "he" is used generically and has no meaning. We could say l'un if that makes you feel better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010

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