The value of faith

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Adam, May 10, 2002.

  1. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Now I'm not referring to religious faith in particular here, but to the concept of faith in general. To et into this, I shall provide the meanings I intend for this question.

    Faith: Belief without reason.

    Faith (from my dictionary): 2) Belief without need of certain proof. Latin fidere, to trust.

    Reason: Belief based on deductive logic, on experience and "reality". You see an apple fall, you work out gravity, for example.

    Reason (from my dictionary): 1) To think logically; obtain inferences from known or presumed facts. 3) To think out carefully and logically. Latin reri, to think, reckon.

    I'm sure you all get the idea of what I mean by these two words.

    Now, my question is this: What is the value of faith? Particularly in comparison to reason?
     
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  3. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

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    Value? ...

    If it weren't for faith in my senses I'd believe the 'world' was round
    and moving about the Sun!

    Take care

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  5. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

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    In the twelfth century there was a debate between a scholar and a mysticist. Abelard believed that truth could only be acquired by logical inquiry. Bernard of Clervaux (St. Bernardus) said that truth could only be obtained by devine inspiration; and we should not trust our reasonings too much.
    I suggest you read something about the debate (it's pretty well documented). Good for the insight in both views.
    It's a bit too easy to say faith is just a mindless belief.
     
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  7. Cactus Jack Death Knight of Northrend Registered Senior Member

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    Check out the "are those who believe, wrong" thread I talked about this there.
     
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    What about trust?

    That is the most common form of faith

    trust that your partner will be FAITHFULL to you for example
     
  9. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Damn good example. In monogomous personal relationships, you have to have faith in your lover's fidelity. You won't go anywhere without it.
     
  10. Cactus Jack Death Knight of Northrend Registered Senior Member

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    Not necassarily. Seriously, isn't part of your belief that they will be faithful based upon your knowledge of them as a person, and your previous experiences with them?
     
  11. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Not really

    when i went into a relationship with TI i CHOSE to throw away my past experiances (which were all bad) and trust her

    that trust wasn't earned

    i started dating her to quickly for her to earn that trust

    I just chose to have faith in her
     
  12. Cactus Jack Death Knight of Northrend Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah, you're right. But there is a large difference between trusting a partner and believeing in a supernatural being without proof.
     
  13. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    You will have to explane that one

    i am begining to think that the trust in god is WAY more justifide than trust in a partner

    and i am SURE adam would agree
     
  14. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    To be honest, right now I have no idea what to think about this matter.
     
  15. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

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    Adam ...

    "In monogomous personal relationships, you have to have faith
    in your lover's fidelity. You won't go anywhere without it."


    First: Why would anyone want to be in such a 'relationship'?

    And: Where is there to 'go' in such a relationship?

    Curious.

    Take care.

    Edit: For clarity
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2002
  16. Cactus Jack Death Knight of Northrend Registered Senior Member

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    No, I meant there is a difference between believing in a god's existance purely on faith. If we knew a god existed we most certainly would have faith in him, that's not really debateable here.
     
  17. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    What about having faith in yourself and your own judgement? You can have faith in a partner as you have faith in yourself till it's proven otherwise by the behaviour of a partner, for instance.

    People change over the years, so does their faith in others. It's based on life-experience and what happens around you, like relation-ships with friends, parents and partners. Practical knowledge comes from things you learn, at school, for instance and then you live with that knowledge which influence your faith in life and yourself.

    No faith in yourself can mean, no faith in others, just because you can't believe in yourself. That reflects in your behaviour toward others and life in general. Past experiences play a big part in this.

    The saying goes: You trust someone else, like you trust yourself...
     
  18. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Trusting your partner is earned based on their previous actions, and should never be absolute. Belief in God is utterly unearned, and is absolute.

    Complete trust is asking to be hurt. One may as well paint a bulls-eye target on your chest.

    The only person you can trust is yourself. This is not faith, but the only possible course of action. As a skeptic, I know that I am probably wrong on many, many things. However, I will always be there to pick myself up.

    Men and women come and go, but you'll always be there for yourself. Until you die, of course.

    Besides, your partner exists.

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    P.S: Pains me as it does to say it, I agree with Chagur.
     
  19. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    I think the faith/trust in yourself, allows you to "see" others for what they "are" by trusting your own judgement/feelings toward the other person. It happened a lot of times, I met someone and had the feeling he/she was pretending or not. Often, your first impression of people you meet during your life-time is the best.

    Except if you're standing in life is questionable and you are pretending yourself, toward others. Then your vision may be totally different.

    If you get a partner and you know he/she has a "bad" past in being trusted, then you know you have to be careful and see for yourself how the relation-ship goes. This partner needs a chance too, though. People change and maybe you're the one able to change the attitude of that particular partner. You know up front what the consequences may be from going into a relation-ship with someone who has a "bad" name in this.

    Why should you stay in a relation-ship with someone who lies to you all the time. Then it's for the liar to deal with the consequences and you move on.

    Hurtful experiences in life will always be there. It belongs to life. It's up to you yourself how to deal with it and keep up the faith in yourself. Hurting other peoples feelings is human nature and unavoidable. It happens all the time. It's the way you react on it.

    "Did he/she make you cry, make you break down, shatter your illusions of love. Is it over now, do you know how, to pick up the pieces and go home..." - quote
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2002
  20. Maelhavok Registered Member

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    Faith: Belief without reason.
    Reason: Belief based on deductive logic...
    Now, my question is this: What is the value of faith? Particularly in comparison to reason?

    Hello sciforum members,

    Why does faith need to be compared in any way to reason?
    The value of faith may just be that it doesn't have to be defined.
    IMHO reason is WAY over-rated. For whatever 'reasons' you have for any actions will not get you to faith. I have a number of reasons for various actions, sometimes logic doesn't enter into it. But Faith, faith moves mountains(disengage logic-plug in imagination) Faith makes the inexplicable possible without reasons. Faith doesn't ask why. Yet the bumblebee flies, the wave becomes the particle and I live to see another day.
    Reason has tried forever to catch up to faith. There is a God-Why? reason asks with a quantifiable box to pigeon hole the lord. I AM THAT I AM says a voice out of somewhere (reason figures it must be the TV waves interfearing with his auditory nerve and promptly leaves the room.)

    Maelhavok
     
  21. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Why does faith need to be compared to reason? Because that's the question I asked.

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  22. Kay Registered Member

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    Why does it have to be compared? People are used to reason. It makes their day to reason with eachother. Sometimes it will end up in an arguement but what the hell.

    The word Faith makes me think of religion and all the wars which are going on because of religion. I'd rather say, I trust in myself than I have faith in myself.

    I can have trust in someone else. Do I necessarrily need to have faith in this person also?

    Let's Reason a little more on this, ok?

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  23. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    The problem here is that ‘faith’, like many words, has multiple definitions, e.g.

    1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions.

    2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust.

    3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs.

    Better dictionaries give further variations.

    Most arguments that surround the word come about through trying to interchange the definitions.

    For example if I state that I have faith in my abilities then that is usually because I have some past experience or evidence that I am indeed capable. In this case 2b(1) from above doesn’t fit.

    So when the word, or in fact, any potentially disputable word, is used in a debate then the user should take pains to clarify which definition is being used.

    In religious debates, the non-believer usually means 2b(1), but the religionist might insist on 2a(1) and claim that evidence is not needed in a religious framework. This inevitably leads to a deadlock because both parties are using different rules and definitions.

    I have tried many times to confront the definitions of faith and have argued here numerous times with others over its usage. I have never achieved a satisfactory conclusion.

    Faith seems to be one of those words that refuses to be tied down to a clear meaning. I now try to avoid it when I can, and dread the religionist who flaunts it and is also unaware of the variations. Sigh!

    But within atheist texts faith will mean belief without evidence, and reason mean belief based on evidence. With this simplified view we can see that faith is the opposite of reason. Most religionists will not accept this argument.

    Cris
     

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