The two state solution fate

So we have to ask the question why hamas launched rockets in the first place. They say it is in response to israel controlling it`s borders. But now we have ask why israel decided to control gaza's borders. The reason is that as a response to israel unilaterally pulling out of gaza, instead of taking this courageous act by arial sharon and improving their quality of life, the palestinians elected fanatics as their government. This government as it`s first act reiterated their charter which calls for the destruction of israel. Since hamas are an elected government, this was a declaration of war. So israel has a right to defend itself, which means doing what they can to ensure that weapons cannot be smuggled into gaza. This is not only for the safety of israelis, but for the safety of the palestinians as well. Certainly hamas couldn`t give a rat's ass about their own people.

 

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You post the same kind of unnuanced propaganda that we expect from the kind of hitlerian-type fanatics that typify hamas. Clearly collateral damage is impossible to avoid. But what we really want to limit is civilian deaths. The fact that so few were killed despite the high density of the gaza population and the ferocity of the attack is a testament to precisely the kind of thing I'm talking about. Hamas actually injured if not killed more of their own people during gaza than the israelis did.

 

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You think 50% of 1300 dead in a couple of week is too few for Palestinians killed? Then you must think the 17 dead from 6000 rocket attacks over the last 8 years is negligible?

 

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There's only one problem, he never said that. Amnon Kapeliouk is known for fabricating quotes, but this one is probably just made up entirely.

 

Another self hating Jew?

 

I don't know who he hates, nor am I blaming this piece of garbage on him. I challenge StrawDog to find a credible source for this "quote".

 

I presume that would be the minutes of the Knesset. As an Israeli journalist and a board member of Btselem I can see how Amnon Kapeliouk is considered as unreliable.

 

Amnon Kapeliouk's article "Begin and the Beasts" (New Statesman, June 25, 1982) is infamous for having misrepresented something Meachem Begin said in a speech to the Knesset, and there are legitimate sources all over the net that make reference to that incident. However, the misrepresented quote is not the one cited above ("Our race is the Master Race", etc.), but another one entirely. Clearly, someone invented the "Master Race" quote and then tacked on Amnon Kapeliouk as the source, to give it credibility. However, even the REAL (and far less offensive) quote has now been proven to have been misrepresented by Kapeliouk.

 

And whats the source for that gem?

 

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=766

 

And we have equally appalling mindsets among their opponents, and many other places besides. Chauvinism is not a new thing, or unique to Israel.

Likewise, that your response to my suggestion consists of a single assertion that "the other side" is "evil" goes to show that you are more interested in taking sides, and then reinforcing that decision, than in progress or peace.

Peace and justice are rarely reconcilable, yet it is sadly rare for the proponents of justice to aknowledge that they are refusing peace. Peace requires much more than a capacity for self-righteousness and the will to enforce it on others; that is the path of war. Peace requires the much supreme strength of forgiveness, and the courage to forge and defend a new identity. Absent that, there is no prospect for peace or justice, only a brutal struggle for naked power, with the concepts of "morals," "justice," and "humanity" reduced to caricatures in a propaganda play.

 

The death toll in Gaza was almost certainly increased by the secondary explosions of Hamas' weapons caches.

 

That is rude.

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This is what he said:

(http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=775)

Animal is close enough to beast I think.

 

That is well said Quad, I don`t have an argument regarding the above.

If the disproportionate use of force was being executed by the Palestinians, I would have the same view as I do regarding the Zionists.

500 slaughtered children is too big a price to pay for me to remain neutral.

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The reason why truman did this was because japanese culture was such that an invasion of the mainland, which would've been the only way to win the war, would've caused millions of deaths on both sides because the japanese prefer death to defeat. What he needed was a demonstration of american capability and resolve in a sufficiently dramatic way to change the japanese mindset and force hirohito to acquiese. Despite the cruel effects of atom bombs, he saved millions of japanese, and american lives. So how did the japanese react? Well, they had a new constitution drafted which though leaving them in no position to threaten anyone militarily, led in only four decades to the creation of an economy which is now second in size only to the US. Hamas would do well to study this bit of history.

Oh well, if you've stated it "countless times" it's no doubt true.

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The creation of Israel was sanctioned by the UN. It was the arabs who refused to accept it, a fact which lead directly to their current predicament.

 

1. You don`t know that for sure.
2. The IDF should have taken that into account in view of the civilian population density.

 

yeah over a hundred dead palestinians and you call it so few. roughly half of them civilian. also it is a mathematical impossibility for hamas to kill more of their own people than the Israelis did even if 100% of hamas kills were their own. but than again suggesting the impossible is something the pro-israeli side is good at.

 

what about the SOB who said yes i made the promise but I never said I would keep it. he was a member of the knesset.

 

That is the official line, and seems reasonable at first glance. There is way more to it than that. For another time.

You can do your own research on the topic.

No. Now THAT is a gem. Palestine was part of the spoils of WW2, and was cut up illegally (arguably) to make way for the Jewish state. The Arabs had LEGITIMATE concerns against the appropriation of their homeland. History shows that their concerns have come to pass. They have been forcibly removed from their homes, they have been terrorized, they have been starved, they have been imprisoned, they have been massacred, it goes on. :bawl: