The size of this universe

Your continued act is fooling no one.
Now read again carefully....
The Universe to the best of our knowledge, is topologically Flat, within small error bars, and is as a result probably Infinite.

The observable Universe is certainly finite in size, contrary to what you think and say in the first line...no may or may not needed at all. In fact it is around 93 billion L/years in diameter...


It is also true that physicists consider our world to be embedded in a 4-D Space-Time continuum, and all events, places, moments in history, actions and so on are described in terms of their location in this space/time/Universe.
So yes, the Universe and space/time can be and is thought of as one.
Write4U of course has his answer from post 85 and my own version of it at 84.
I'm sure if he has any more questions they will be answered by those that know.


The rest of your post will be ignored for the paranoid rubbish it extols.

 

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paddoboy

Being flat only means it will continue to expand, not that it has already done so to an infinite extent. By definition, if it had a beginning(and it did)there is always going to be a finite time since that beginning(thus no infinite time)and if it started with no size(and that's what a Singularity is)then it has only reached a finite size through Inflation and Expansion, thus no infinite size. The Universe, as Albert said, is finite but unbounded(it has no outside edges, the only edge is a BH's horizon).

dumbest man on earth

The OBSERVABLE Universe is about 17.4 billion lys across, a finite size. The Universe is larger than that, but also finite in size. And a finite time has passed since the Universe began, so infinite time has not yet passed and never will. Nothing that had a beginning at no size at all can be infinite in size, ever(especially if it can be seen to be getting bigger over time. "More Infinite" is an oxymoron), and it will always be a finite time since the Big Bang, time may continue forever, but at each point of that future time it will be finite in duration, forever.

Nature has no infinities in it, the concept of infinity is strictly a product of human reasoning. They are usually a warning sign telling you that your reasoning is breaking down.

Grumpy

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Must disagree with you Grumpy......
The observable Universe is around 93 billion L/years in diameter.
We must allow for expansion.
And when we say the Universe was packed to within the volume of an atomic nucleus, we really mean the Observable Universe was.
I also view a flat Universe as meaning that two rays of light projected parallel outwards, will remain parallel.
It also follows that the Universe is probably Infinite in extent.

I admit to not understanding infinities [who does?] but I do accept the WMAP findings.

So, if the universe is infinite it would have to be expanding infinitely fast, as there is an infinite amount of space to contribute to the expansion. But when you take an infinitely small portion of the universe (like what we can measure) that expansion rate can be finite. So if the universe were to gain 10% size over a given time, it could do so and still be infinite.

All this seems counter intuitive and hard to accept, but the math is the math. Without accepting infinity as a real possibility than things like a singularity become impossible. An infinite universe also nicely explains expansion. While the universe was a finite size each point had an infinite amount of energy contributing to its expansion.


http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html


http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html

 

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This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe. All we can truly conclude is that the Universe is much larger than the volume we can directly observe.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html


That is all I have ever claimed...To the best data and knowledge we have at this time, the Universe is thought to be Infinite.

 

i'll repeat it here once again. if the universe is infinite now then it has always been infinite. see post #33 for the reason. doesn't matter if it has a starting point a finite time ago. the number line has a starting point, 1, and that is infinite. please don't keep repeating this crap about it can't be infinite because it had a stating point.

 

Hi Grumpy.....
There does seem to be a few interpretations around as to meanings, and theoretical possibilties and outcomes, based on our observational data.
And I enjoy debating, listening to other views and asking questions on these scenarios. When they are genuine of course, as your's certainly are.
While I agree that the Universe being flat, means that it will probably expand forever, when we couple that with the observable universe being what was packed to within the confines of an atomic nucleus at the BB, does seem to imply Infinity.
Plus the fact that Singularities [although a mathematical concept] can also lead to Infinities.

Which is why when we here that the BB was an evolution of space and time, we really mean an evolution of space and time, "ÄS WE KNOW THEM"

 

Grumpy, not sure that paddoboy will accept your reasoning or clarification, but...

So, in reference to WriteU's question :

So...the simple answer would be "No" - I do have that correct, do I not?

I actually know it for a fact to be correct, but a certain Poster seems to have a problem with anything that I Post. Possibly he may accept an answer from you, again possibly.

Grumpy, maybe you could get with the ^^above Poster^^ and get him to understand any discrepancy between 17.4 billion light years across and his fact that it is "around 93 billion L/years in diameter...".

It appears that I can no longer have any normal functioning discourse with him because of...well...?

Later, dmoe

 

the correct answer is we don't know. our current models based on the wmap results indicate a flat universe and this means it is infinite now and always has been.

these models may change in the future with more data.

 

that is, the distance from us to the most distant edge that could possibly have ever interacted with us — of 46.5 billion light years. As you can see, that number is about to get a lot bigger as time goes forward; that’s dark energy’s fault! [radius]

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/03/01/how-big-is-our-observable-universe/


But though the sphere appears almost 28 billion light-years in diameter, it is far larger. Scientists know that the universe is expanding. Thus, while scientists might see a spot that lay 13.8 billion light-years from Earth at the time of the Big Bang, the universe has continued to expand over its lifetime. Today, that same spot is 46 billion light-years away, making the diameter of the observable universe a sphere around 92 billion light-years.


http://www.space.com/24073-how-big-is-the-universe.html


The observable Universe is about 93 Billion L/years in diameter, give or take a few million L/years.

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Thank you Boris.

 

and this may be a good read for some here. find out which logical fallacy you adhere to.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

personal incredulity seems to be de rigour around here.

 

Sure! many do have normal functioning discourse with me.
In your case though, you need to review your whole attitude.
My refuting of pseudoscience quackery and conspiracy nutters will continue.
Your bleeding heart approach for them because of mine and others refutation and derision is getting you no friends and bringing out a paranoia approach from your perspective..

 

Basically in agreement, but if we are to make a judgement call, the scientific approach would go with Infinite because of the available data.

And of course that may change in the future.

 

No that isn't what the WMAP measurement means. Flat is infinite in extent. This means it has a starting point and will expand forever. It doesn't mean ".... this means it is infinite now and always has been." There wouldn't be a CMBR to measure if the universe was infinite "and always has been".

 

NO YOU DO NOT! And Write4U does have his answer at post 96 thus.....

The link in question.....
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html


Which briefly says that despite beliefs to the contrary, the whole Universe was not packed within the volume of an atomic nucleus at the BB, but it was the Observable Universe which was under such constraints.
This infers that the Universe is most probably Infinite.
The Flat topology indicated by WMAP also infers an Infinite Universe.
At present, this is the state of play in cosmology.

 

Hmmmm. The CMBR though is a result of the observable Universe being at one time, being in a hotter, denser state.
We know nothing yet of what existed at the BB, or the nature of space and time at and before that point.

 

paddoboy, I am sorry but I will no longer tolerate your...whatever it is that you think that you are doing on this Forum.

Believe it or not, I feel somewhat sorry for you, but to you it does not matter what I write in my Posts.

So...anyway, again sorry but I will no longer acknowledge any of your "standard paddoboy whatever it is" - I was told that it would be better if I did not "Feed the Trolls".

I will not "put you on ignore" so you may continue to Post as you please, but do not expect me to do much more than just possibly acknowledge your presence.

 

I wouldn't suggest you stop feeding yourself.

 

Eternal Inflation predicts stuff about the nature of space and time before our inflation event occurred. It's pretty interesting stuff and has experimental support for the predictions which can now be measured [details of the inflation event].