The Qur'an

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Michael, Jul 23, 2009.

  1. Bizza Registered Senior Member

    What's the matter? Can't handle it when someone responds to your vile posts in kind? And then you have the nerve to suggest I adhere to the "positive" aspects of my faith? Maybe you should look into your own "book of morals" before you start making suggestion matey, 'cos it was due to your attacks on my faith and its ummah that I started to post here. And if it's "negative" to you... then good, because to me you and your fellow court jester Mickhead are two lost causes.

    Love to see you reiterate the things you said in my backyard IN PERSON and INFRONT OF MY FACE if you have the balls, rather than being a scared, belligerent, vile and irrationally minded little twat sitting behind the safety of a computer screen? Do you think you could say the things you said in public and get away with it? You better not be in my backyard buddy, 'cos I'd rip you to shreds you piece of shit.

    I will ALWAYS have a militant mindset and attitude towards you and Mickhead, until you both start showing a bit of respect, at least. Then we "may" actually be able to have a decent and intelligent discussion, so that we can share our views (and counter-views) without discourse and foul mouthed accusations that only serve to polarize all of us and perpetuate hate.

    Until then, I will not respond to you again. You're just wasting time.

    Haha... the whole 3 of you? Good one! LOL!

    It certainly seems like you are the master of the "dark side". You could write a book on it, given all the crap you've posted to date.
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  3. Bizza Registered Senior Member

    Fantastic! Finally, someone with a bit of brains and I thank you Geoff for being amicable and objective in your analysis. This is something that has been completely lacking in this thread alone.
    Sure, okay mate.

    If you look at the Bible Code (“BC”), you would see that; to decipher any prophecy or foreknowledge, one requires using a system (or method) which is unorthodox to the standard, straight forward continuous-wording method we use to read a book in the normal way, for example. In this case (of the BC), the ELS - Equidistant Letter Sequence method is used to decipher (whatever it is they are looking for?). This method has already been criticized by four academic authors in 1999, the Australian mathematician Brendan McKay, the Israeli mathematicians Dror Bar-Natan and Gil Kalai, and the Israeli psychologist Maya Bar-Hillel (collectively known as "MBBK") published a paper in Statistical Science, in which they argue that the case of Witztum, Rips and Rosenberg (WRR) is "fatally defective, indeed that their result merely reflects on the choices made in designing their experiment and collecting the data for it." The MBBK paper was reviewed anonymously by four professional statisticians prior to publication. In the introduction to the paper, Robert Kass, the Editor of the Journal who previously had described the WRR paper as a "challenging puzzle" wrote that "considering the work of McKay, Bar-Natan, Kalai and Bar-Hillel as a whole it indeed appears, as they conclude, that the puzzle has been solved".Journalist Drosnin's books have been criticized by some who believe that the Bible Code is real but that it cannot predict the future. Some accuse him of factual errors, claiming that he has much support in the scientific community, mistranslating Hebrew words to make his point more convincing, and using the Bible without proving that other books do not have similar codes.

    Responding to an explicit challenge from Drosnin, who claimed that other texts such as Moby-Dick would not yield ELS results comparable to the Torah, McKay created a new experiment that was tuned to find many ELS letter arrays in Moby Dick that relate to modern events, including the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. He also found a code relating to the Rabin assassination, containing the assassin's first and last name and the university he attended, as well as the motive ("Oslo", relating to the Oslo accords). Drosnin and others have responded to these claims, saying the tuning tactics employed by McKay were simply "nonsense", and providing analyses to support their argument that the tables, data and methodologies McKay used to produce the Moby Dick results "simply do not qualify as code tables". (Sourced from Wickipedia)

    The (correct) statistical milieu you have set forward would only be of use for such methods as the BC, but not to ascertain the probabilistic validity of the Quran. Therefore, because I am not (and never had) said that the Quran uses any such method, besides reading it normally; it should not be criticized in the same manner.

    So in the end, the facts I have presented in the Quran were in no way like the BC and no ‘mathematical language system’ or a system of “numerical occurrences” is used. The information is presented in a standard fashion and is not intended to be used or read in any other way, besides the way it is presented. The rest is up for interpretation, conjecture (or agreement), and scientific validity (or acceptance).
    I’m sorry, but I already have and still, nothing was done. Ask the moderators yourself if you like? I even reported a particular case and even there they didn’t respond in any way whatsoever, instead they jumped down my throat when it was on the other foot and threatened to ban me (not that this is any worry at all to me!). So once I understood that this site seems like that (those words I used to describe it), I gathered that it’s on for young and old, and that all gloves were off! That’s when I lost total respect for this site, there and then. That doesn’t however mean I don’t have respect for certain people here (including your good self) and one moderator in particular, Bells. However, he/she did not respond to my protests either and this may be because he/she wasn’t aware of it? Nevertheless, others were.
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  5. Bizza Registered Senior Member

    The argument of a “priory cause” relating to the premise I put forward; “something cannot come from nothing if the existent is temporal or finite”... that’s what we were arguing about remember? But you diverged and resorted to making useless rhetorical comments, due to your inability to respond in like. This to me implied that you simply lost the “argument”!
    No, my intention wasn’t to have an “argument” at all. It was to share ideas and to put forward philosophical premises and syllogisms, in order to try and solve “the age old problem”. Sadly, you jumped in and started to make rhetorical remarks. I answered back similarly and now you don’t like that too? Amazing!
    I sure am. Wouldn’t you be one of those “demons” in this case? Seems very real to me!
    Gee... for the largest growing religion in the world, it certainly doesn’t seem like it’s dying at all. Instead, it’s living stronger than ever before.
    Yes I sure am. I’m trying to understand “how” my fellow Human can be so vicious against each other’s belief and faith and then act like they’re the logical thinking ones without showing ANY logic at all. That’s why I have certain “assumptions” about atheists and you are too frequently proving those assumptions correct so far. I put it down to “Human conditions” in the end and not try to attribute it to their beliefs and faiths like you do.
    See, this just goes to show, after “arguing” with me for this long, that you haven’t the slightest idea what I believe and what I have said. I keep telling you that “something cannot come from nothing”, yet here you are stating that I believe the opposite?
    So you DO hate the word “creation” after all? It’s just as I thought.
    Yes, that too. But I am here primarily for the former. I just haven’t seen much ‘sharing of new ideas’ in this forum. Do you have anything to share? Want to open a new chapter? Are you ready for one?
    Ummm... you didn’t read that verse properly. It said “Tariq” as the phenomena and “Thaqib” as its attribute (even though the verses I provided didn’t mention “thaqib”). They are two different things with two different meanings. Let me elaborate;

    This is the Arabic transliteration of the first 3 verses of that 86th Ayah (At-Tariq: The Morning Star, The Night Comer);
    1. Waalssamai waalttariqi
    2. Wama adraka ma alttariqu
    3. Alnnajmu alththaqibu

    Thaqib” being a “shooting star” (and I think you got this from a baby naming site right?) is correct in the basic definition you gave and is but one meaning, however, if you look at its root, the term is interpreted to mean; a hole, to pass through (a hole), bore/perforate/pierce/puncture, intense (surge), burn/blaze/flame brightly (e.g. as if to pierce through the night), ascend/reach, penetrate, struck/kindle fire, fuel for fire, a man very red, brilliant (can be applied to knowledge), a drill (instrument which perforates).

    In the Quran, this word is used only twice. Once on the 3rd verse in the above Surah which is used to refer as a star that “penetrates”, “or makes a hole”, and the other in the 10th verse of Surah 37, which is used to refer to a “bright fire” in Hell.

    "Alttariqi" (used in that verse 86.1&.2) means; a star that pierces the night, that pierces the darkness, born at night, piercing and moving on, beating, knocking, striking - or sharp star. The last verse (86.3) mentions this phenomenon (Tariq – “knocker” in the third verse of Surat at-Tariq) as the term "alnnajmu alththaqibu," meaning; piercing, piercing and moving on, or opening holes, indicating that the phenomenon “Tariq” is a bright knocking star (very similar to a pulsar – or neutron star) that pierces a hole in the darkness - thaqib - (collapses into a black hole), and moves on (eventually the BH collapses and all the radiation has gone on to form other existents).

    Just to expand further on Neutron Stars (Pulsars);
    Most neutron stars discovered today are in the form of radio pulsars (after going supernova). They are called radio pulsars because they emit radio waves. We can simply connect a radio telescope to a loud speaker and hear a pulsar. Pulsars sound like someone persistently knocking.

    The concept of the term "adraka" in the expression of verse 86.2, "And what will convey to you what the Tariq is?" refers to comprehension. Now why would the Lord ask, “...what will convey (or make you understand) what the phenomena Tariq is?” if it was something as simple as a “shooting star”? It would be very simple to understand and see as well. As for the phenomena of Tariq, that is why He refers it as a “phenomena”.

    Let’s entertain this interpretation (of it being a shooting star) for a minute and see if it would be cohesive? In your case; we could see that there is clearly a phenomenon known as “Tariq” (a bright knocking star) that would go on to make a hole -“thaqib” and would move on. Now if this were a shooting star, then yes, it would appear as piercing through the night as a bright star (even though it’s not a star), and would then “make a hole”. But make a hole into where? Well, that would be whatever it “strikes” I suppose – “striking” (here it is used as - unlike sharpness). So then the verse says that this star moves on though? So what happens after it supposedly strikes, or makes a hole again? ... this shooting “star” by the way?

    See how it makes little sense if you mentioned it this way?
    What is “scientific jargon” baftan?
    Oh, you forget to mention how black holes are created though haven’t you? Now what was it again that collapses under its enormous gravitation? Neutron Stars!!! A star! Funny you would omit that part hey?
    Riiight! I think you need to settle down and stop accusing people who understand better than you. And who was it that was “daring” to omit the word tariq and assume that thaqib was the only word used in those 3 verses? You! And who was it that “created” a false and misleading interpretation on a verse by omitting facts? You!

    How dare you!

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    And how exactly do you think it began baftan? You think that after a billion years of dumb, mute, blind and senseless atoms crashing into each other did that? Or even add all other 4 forces to your superstitions and wait another trillion years and let’s see if a car can exist that just drives off all by itself, goes to the petrol station, absorbing all its oil and gas, and then goes off and picks up the kids, then goes straight back home and tucks the kids in bed and back to the garage... ALL without any programming or instructions baftan. Insane hey? That’s the kind of superstition YOU believe in.

    Did you also think that the very first moments of an object to come to life took a billion years before it had senses and consciousness? Didn’t you think for a minute that there may have been a moment when there was no life, like before that billion years? Of course there was, and you know that life didn’t take a billion years to evolve, only for one moment when this first being became “aware”! So yes, even if it did take the “conditions” to make life sustainable a billion or so years, THAT one single first being that felt or sensed its own self and surroundings happened in that one split second, that sudden moment. In other words...“all of a sudden”. Not a billion years!
    How determined... and charmingly misguided you are to make such a staunch statement on the back of... well... nothing really.

    But let me at least give you some evidences of ‘things appearing suddenly’ shall I? Since anyone reading this would know you can’t give evidences or any logical premises, or syllogisms to save your life!

    Here’s a site that shows Fossil Records that explains how many species appear non-transitionally and inconsistent with gradulaism(what’s this?... I’m using evolutionary sites to prove my point? How can this be?). These are some of the topics discussed and cited from Harvard University textbooks by the way. Enjoy!

    Most species appear all at once in the fossil record fully formed

    "Anything truly novel always seemed to appear quite abruptly in the fossil record"

    Evolutionary novelty "usually shows up with a bang"

    The decisive steps are abrupt, without transition

    "All but one* of the phyla in the fossil record appeared within the first 5 million to 10 million years"

    The sudden appearance of the flowering plants (angiosperms) was to Darwin "an abominable mystery"
    Oh the irony! And the audaciousness!

    Yep! I agree... it sure is “unbelievable” hey?

    It has to be gradual. Human evolution (yes I did say “evolution”) from the first creation of Adem (pbuh) couldn’t comprehend the technology from today for example. And if we were to receive information/technology from say a billion years in the future of Human existence, do you really think we could possibly grasp the concepts, language, axioms, philosophy, maths, science and all that would come with a billion year advanced information? It would be like trying to tell your cat to understand black holes, let alone speaking English. So yes, it most certainly needs to be given to us gradually and not “all of a sudden”. Man have you got your mind twisted around or what?
    No, not out of “nowhere”, because that doesn’t exist except in a literary sense.
    What’s so illogical about that? It’s not rocket science! Do you have a problem with the word “sudden” now as well? What crap are you reading this from dude?
    If it puts you to sleep, then maybe it would be a lullaby, but it’s not. It’s a book of guidance, signs and an inspiration for many people on this Earth already. Including renowned scientists.
    Do you believe in love? Do you believe in existentialism and being able to reconcile your love for your family, then measuring it to prove it? How can you? But it’s there with all its glory. Much like God to us theist’s... it is a matter of looking around and through introspection and through experiences do we understand a higher power to all this. And we can “feel” His presence. I know you wouldn’t believe me but it’s perfect!

    Looking at it another way; If Allah were indeed to show Himself to you all, with all His Omnipotence, Omniscience and every other attribute He possesses, you would probably believe in His existence wouldn’t you? But then another dilemma arises. Then why would we all need to live in this universe knowing the truth? All of us, that is? What would be the point of everyone knowing and then doing the right thing (without committing a sin), when He could skip all that and just put us all in Paradise already? Think about it very hard because it involves not only tests and trials here on Earth, but also of a little thing called “free will”. But that’s a different topic that requires deep thinking.

    Also as an example, would you like it if everyone were able to become doctors, lawyers and pilots, all without going through vigorous testing first, to see if they have what it takes and are worthy of such distinctions and titles? Of course not! So why would God allow us to go to Heaven without being tested first? Sort of beats the purpose don’t you think?

    I’m sorry but, were you not aware that people are believing in God/Allah more so than not, even in “this technology infested new dynamic generation of human kind”? I don’t think many who think it through would believe that; dumb, mute, blind and unconscious particles smashing into each other over kazillions of years would be able assemble or cause anything without instructions or programming. That’s if they reallllly thought about it. But each to their own hey?
    Easy there tiger. One at a time hey? You haven’t falsified anything. Quite the opposite, you’ve probably reaffirmed the theist’s beliefs and probably even turned a few atheist to accept my logic over yours.
    Then why would you imply that the “Agricultural era” was the reason for people believing in a God somehow? What were you implying? It happened back then and it’s still happening now more so, even in this “technology infested new dynamic generation of human kind”.
    No no... you agreed and I can prove it if you like step by step mister?
    Good to see you get your hateful intentions out for all to see. Great to know now. So this is what atheism is about is it? So you’re saying people should be weary of you a lot more now... knowing there are evil people like you out there who try to “poison people”, as you have clearly admitted?:bugeye:
    Okay then. That’s the second admission you made in a row. You’re doing great baftan.

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    Okay. I’m thinking of a few, but I won’t say it, even though you “don’t give a toss”. I just feel sorry for you and your mental state at the moment.
    Oh but you just admitted you were above... remember... the “poisoning” part?
    Yeah, I can be pretty funny. Mostly physical humour though.
    Riiight. The whole ... what... 10 or 11 of you out there? LOL!
    And you will never succeed with your venomous poisoning of people while my ummah is around matey. We’ll fight you on all fronts and you will lose. That’s a promise!
    Go ahead... and I will verbally defend and dish it out more than you could possibly handle. I’m more spirited and resilient than you.
    That’s a BIG problem you have then. Go see a psychologist or something before you go insane man. That’s not healthy at all! For anyone! And believe me... you’re not convincing anyone at the moment.
    Naaaa... I don’t think you showed anything other than the fact that you’re almost clinically insane. Instead, I think it is I that was able to infuriate you to such an extent as to expose you for the fraud that you are.
    Going by your logic, theories, science, philosophy, the way you masquerade as some sort of sage for atheist’s and the lack thereof all these, would suggest to me that you are not a worthy adversary. I just wouldn’t waste my time with you anymore now.
    The rest of your drivvle is not even worth responding to now. Another one bites the dust!
    Enjoy your life-journey baftan and good luck... you’re sure gonna need it kid!
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
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  7. Bizza Registered Senior Member

    That’s okay though. If it takes hundreds of years later to understand that there’s truth in there, and that an illiterate man whom had no idea of these truths back then (nor anyone else for that matter), would suggest that this information may have been passed down from a higher source. That’s the beauty of the Quran and Allah in general. It goes to show that this is something amazing, something well beyond the scope of understanding science, finance, social studies etc. It shows that this book just couldn’t have been written by humans.
    That “pattern” being the Bible Code of course. We all know you mentioned this and put it on par with what is otherwise being said. No one mentioned of mystical numerical occurrences taking place. Nor did anyone use mathematical constructs to ascertain certain truths mentioned in the Quran. You can read it right to left in Arabic, or left to right in English like any other book. Not diagonally and criss-cross wise, just to get a few sentences that suit you. No, that’s not the contention here. It is yours alone and it’s incorrect.
    No... little children die due to misguided people blowing themselves up when their religion tells them otherwise.
    Children die when phosphorous bombs are used in the name of certain self deluded “rights” to lands they steal.
    Children die when “democratic” governments don’t care what happens to a city that gets carpet bombed, or even nuked, in the name of “freedom”.
    Anyone can go insane when provoked, threatened, brainwashed or just have too much power than they should.
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Of course not. I am talking about finding stuff in there that can be tweaked a bit to interpret as meaning something of modern significance and factual accuracy.
    There is nothing of that nature in my translation of the Quran, or in any of the examples presented by anyone, that is anything except hindsight "interpretation" and naive misconceptions of the matter at hand.

    And that is one of the problems with the Quran, and Allah in general. They are agencies of delusion, and they breed gullibility in the intellectual communities they influence.
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I asked for this: ONE thing you (Bizza) have learned from the Qur'an, that you think should be taught at Universities the entire world over - something that students don't already get reading a bit of Indian, Chinese or Greek philosophy - then write it NOW.

    And you come up with the Bible Code??? THE BIBLE CODE :bugeye:

    Even SAM must be squirming.

    Lets look to the past and another culture for a parallel.
    History gives us a clue.
    If we look back to China, one of the oldest civilizations, we see that at times the Chinese were very tolerant of Islam. They helped build temples for Muslims to pray in and they traded with Persians (over land) as well as Arabs (by sea). They knew a good deal about Islam and there were a lot of cultural exchanges made pre-Islam as well as post-Islam. These different civilizations shared a lot of trade with one another - the blue dye used in Chinese porcelain was from Persia for example.

    The Chinese translated the Qur'an into Chinese. Chinese Philosophers sat down and studied the Qur'an. History show's that as a whole the Chinese never really thought much about the deeper meanings found in the Qur'an. This is a fact of History. The Chinese simply didn't think that the ideas expressed in the Qur'an were all that worthwhile to bother with.

    Now, compare this with the reception that the Chinese gave towards Indian Buddhism. The Chinese devoted a lot of time just thinking about Buddhist insights into humanity and the human condition. These ideas the Chinese DID think were very worthwhile to consider - and they did.

    Isn't it odd Bizza, that just like modern day Universities, the Chinese didn't think too much of the Qur'an. Now, one must wonder - was this again due to snobbery? As Bizza suggested was the case with modern day Universities OR could it be that the Qur'an (or should I say a story of a magical desert GOD) just isn't all that good? Or I know, maybe it's as 786 suggested, the Chinese (like Renaissance Philosophers and modern day Academics - are just to dense to "Get GOD" - unlike say Bizza and 786 those two brilliant minds of the ages ... LOL

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    It seems even History shows that the Qur'an wasn't all that good. Not even nearly as influential as a mere man - for example Buddha.

    I didn't decide what happened historically - I'm simply bringing it to your attention. It must seem so shocking that all these people for 1400 years have read GOD and found GOD to have such a lack of insight into humanity. It's almost as if the Qur'an were all made up by some pretty simple minded people who didn't really give a rats-ass about understanding humanity and contributing to a better world and where more like people looking to control other people through superstitious dreams and fears. So on the one hand we have Buddhist Philosophy of Human suffering, meditation and the Human condition and in the other hand we magical sky-God, Virgins, Hellfire and THE "last" prophet - ooo, that "last" one was real deep. the "Last" Prophet - can you feel the depth there ... so so sooo deep... pfffff

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    So, Bizza leaves us with One Thing from the Qur'an all University Graduates should walk away with and this deep insight into humanity is THE Bible CODE. Hahahaha..... hay how about this: The "Last" BIBLE CODE.... too funny....

    Just do as SAM did and say nothing and get over it. The Qur'an wasn't meant to teach any deep meanings. It wasn't meant to be thought about - it was instead meant to be believed and that's it. The SAME enlightened meaning can be found in this statement: There is only One Xenu (pbuh) and Ron Hubbard (pbuh) was His "Last" Prophet. Just believe and be done with it.

    No wonder the Chinese couldn't be bothered wasting their time. Just like modern day universities.


    PS: If you think modern day anatomy is in any way shape or form based on the Qur'an - grab your head with both hands and at least try to pull it out of your ass.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  10. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

    Go back and read post #370 of this thread. I have no intention to repeat what I already said on this subject. At least not in the same thread. I can make one addition though: Your sentence of "something cannot come from nothing if the existent is temporal or finite" has an unnecessary part, which is "if the existent is temporal or finite". You don't need that, nobody needs it. Just plain "something cannot come from nothing" is enough and clear. There is no "if"s. Your "if" is intentionally there to spare a space for your God. In reality, nothing has an exeption to the rule: "Nothing can come from nothing". "Nothingness" exist only in human mind. It's not a physical thing, it has no place in this universe. Humans think about it, just as they can think about infinity, eternity, God, Superman, or any other non-existing concepts. It's human ability to develop concepts. That doesn't mean that they exist.

    You have no intention other than to defend your fantasy. You already shared your idea of God. I asked "where is your God?", you implied that it's everywhere. I didn't buy it. It's simple as that. Forget about "philosophical... age of problems" shit. I focus on today, and your idea is an obstacle in front of human species.

    Your mind works with angel and demons, that's why you have to decode other ideas according to the language of your software, otherwise you don't understand them. You are demonizing me as a person in order to cope with what I am saying. You can not analyse my words without naming the source of it. You see, you do not know me personally, you are seeing my ideas in written format.

    It's growing into an abyss. It's growing into something more complex and bigger than it can comprehend which is next generation of human technologies and social interactions. It will not be able to isolate it's societies as it used to do before. Have a look at your "growing numbers"; are they practicing and following the essence of your belief, or their numbers are related with phenomenon of "population increase in underdeveloped countries". I mean is that "growing numbers" are due to the reason of mass convertions to religion(s); or is it because of growing number of population in religiously manipulated societies.

    You are not. You are trying to propagandate your religion to yourself as much as others. And being vicious against belief is what modern societies have been doing for some time. You can not find better ways without testing belief systems. Useless belief systems, such as "women are inferior than men", or a group of people are "racially superior to others" were all "belief" systems once. They needed to be attacked to be more easily demolished in front of human species. And your religion do not deserve any exception. Yours is as bad as slavery or racism, not less.

    No you don't say "something cannot come from nothing". You are trying to push your God under this sentence. All you are saying is essentially "everything comes from Allah". "Allah made everything out of nothing". When I asked you where is your Allah, you are saying that you are "feeling" it. But you are trying to use "feeling" verb as if you were feeling hot or cold. No you are not feeling; you are imagining.

    I opened a new chapter which is a thead called "How do organised religions differ from slavery or racism"; you can find it if you search...

    This is your question:

    And this is your answer from your very own post:

    Here is the modern islamist trick: Put some parantesis inside a Qur'anic verses to remind the reader what it meant. Because readers are stupid, they can understand them verses literally. It's in almost all Qur'anic verses around the world now. It's impossible to find a Qur'an now without somebody put some explanation in between Allah's word. And muslims duty is to inject scientific jargon (see Qur'ans with galaxy, DNA and atoms are included inside of them). According to your religion I am going to burn in the lowest level of hell "eternally of course" since I reject your God. Yet again according to your religion, those who make additions to Allah's words will suffer right above me for long time, but not eternally, since Allah will eventually take you into the heaven. What a great justice for you.

    Hadiths were created that way: To support Qur'an when it is required. They were written by people who listened to Mohammed when he was alive and this information was brought to next generation through reliable muslims; is that so? Yes, these lot deserve to burn with me in the hell.

    Who gives a shit about the words used in your verses? You can multiply and bend the words as much as you like. If anyone goes deep in words in Qur'an will definetely find truth and Allah, aren't they? No, they will find seventh century Arabic poem, no useful information for anyone. Everybody is free to try. (Of course they should omit the explanatory paranthesis or deepnotes written by modern Qur'an explanators. I thought somewhere in the Qur'an it was stated that "my words are open and clear". You are the master of verses, find me where it is.)

    That's a kind of superstition that you think I believe in. I repeat: I don't believe in this, this is nothing to do with belief.

    There is no such a moment.

    You mean existence without life. It still exist: minerals and rocks do not have life, you don't need to go back to billions of years, your computer is not alive either. What you call life, awareness have also evolved. Life without brain or eye organ do not have similar type of "awareness" as you would admit. Otherwise we couldn't mention difference between you and a handfull of grass or bacteria. You share certain types of awareness with other great apes such chimpanzees or gorillas, as just as any other human beings. Yet luckily, other species of great apes do not fantasise Gods and heavens.

    This is your fantasy; DNA says otherwise.

    Stephen J. Gould (The scientist you quoted) had "created" controversies with his writing style, yet he was an evolutionary biologist and he never refused what Darwin said on the origin of species. He never claimed that species emerged "out of nowhere", this is a creationist discourse mostly derived from his definitions on fossil record classifications. He tried to mention the dramatic formations of natural selections. He didn't find any species which didn't fit entire evolution steps of life on this planet. You and other creationists will try to highlight these sort of sentences, but it will not make any contribution to the discipline of evolutionary biology.

    You can find more detailed information here:

    Believable and unbelievable are your methods to understand reality. Science finds certain fossils and they can not pinpoint the evolutionary steps from earlier species at first glance. Then they come up with an idea until they find a new fossil evidence. This is a rule of thumb: abrupt changes in species coincides with abrubt changes in environment. This is sensible, because DNA do not need to change itself so abrubtly if there wasn't any extreme external effects from outside world. You see, it's always physical, nothing divine.

    What do you want, a medal? You don't get it, because you continue with this:

    Who is Adem? Who says that he was created? You started (never finished actually) to introduce new characters to your scenario. Where is your evidence other than mental world of your fairy tale? What do you mean God's creation was not designed to comprehend today's technology? Did God know about today's technology? How can you expect us to believe in such a crazy story?

    I can assure you they will not be human existence in a billion year time. This is not allowed by physical conditions. Your DNA differs 2 percent from a chimpanzee DNA, and it took 5 million years for that. Try to grasp time, natural selection, environmental changes and their effects. Otherwise you will always make false predictions.
    And this proves what, evolution or creation (such a disgusting word).

    Just read your previous paragraph and tell me the meaning of "twist".

    Of course I have a problem with the word "sudden". It sits next to "creation".

    Give me some names, so we can check out their scientific credibility, as well as the context. Otherwise "renowned scientist" sounds similar to "three wise men".

    This is the first sentence in wikipedia under the entry called "love":

    The quality, object, level of love differs from person to person, species to species. Yet when you put them under the brain scanner, you can observe which part of their brain cells are activated. And you can repeat the experiment over and over again. Now you have a measurable phenomenon. You can also find special brain cells in the brains of people who believe in Gods. Popular jargon describes it "God" cell. Yet it doesn't prove the existence of God, it only proves that there are certain members of our species who keep their minds busy with fantasies.

    Not necessarily, I could be seeing hallucinations; I must be measuring it. Something other than me (some device, some tangible and observable effect should be produced by what I saw. Then, still I wouldn't believe it, I could start to accept it as an existing phenomenon in this universe. I don't believe in wind or electricity, I just accept them due to their imposing evidence of existence.
    But it will never happen, you and I both know that for different reasons. It will not happen, not because your God doesn't want to show itself due to its project on humans, just because it can not, just because there is no such a thing called God, how many times I should repeat it until you come up with a tangible evidence, or hint of evidence, or an effect, a reason, anything. Or it should at least fit somewhere within the mechanisms of nature. Let's see how do you explain why God doesn't "show up":

    I don't know how do you explain this story in your thinking system; but i find it quite sadistic and moreover a sick plan. Only an agricultural society would come up with such an idea that life is a test prepared by God -whatever it is-. Plus, "free will" is not a "little thing". Don't mention the topics if you are not going to elaborate. Or elaborate it, and let's see what your brain produces about the concept of "free will".

    What heaven, do you seriously believe that your soul (?) will live in an eternal life? On what basis? Where is the evidence?

    Once people used to believe other things, they were all over the world, now they and their beliefs are part of history. And if you keep mentioning numbers, I would remind you that you have no idea how many people are believing in what. You just calculate the population growth in countries where official religion of state, or widespread belief of majority is branded as this or that religion (catholic, islam, christian). From now on, they are not true followers of any religion, they are consuming historic brands, they are not living according to their forced identities, they live according to their actual conditions, the realities of their era. How can you know how many people are not believing in any God? I can not, yet I don't care. I am dealing with ideas, not numbers. Because sizes of population didn't have immense effects in human development; but some ideas manipulated the masses, or masses gathered around some ideas. Just as once your religion had been a driving force in its region. The driving force of next generations, however, will be more technologic, information and knowledge based than previous generations, including ourselves. Anybody's claim will easily be checked on internet type common knowledge pools. Trends, directions, policies will all be subject to scrutiny. There is no place for any mumbo jumbo in their paths. We are in the middle of this transformation, that's a "historic role" for this generation if you like.

    Wrong, agricultural era created sophisticated God stories for more sophisticated regimes of agricultural era. God(s) were created before that in hunter gatherers, yet there were more naturally integrated imagination characters. You can have a look at various belief system in hanter-gatherers so that you can see the difference between their belief system and the god(s) systems of agricultural societies of last 10000 years.

    "History always repeats itself twice: first time as tragedy, second time as farce." - Karl Marx

    Try doing it, but as far as I can see up until now, you will not amaze me...

    You see, I play to your mental game. Because even if I talk about DNA, planets, or rocks, you will never be able to stick to the topic unless you define a place for me in your mind. I must be devil, demon, atheist or something your mental world can relate. Otherwise your brain can not generate any meaning. Yes, yes, I have "hateful intentions", so what?
    Does it help gravity? If I became an angel, would it change gravity? No, neither situation makes difference in real world. My costume was already in the wardrobe of your imagination world. I can't help it, so I go along with it.

    Check out all entries that I put to this conversation; not only that, check out all threads that I wrote sentences in this forum. Moreover, you are free to bring any sentence you can find out on internet with name "baftan": You will never find a single claim that I stated "I am an atheist". You can not. I share ideas with atheist that I do not believe in your God. That's true. But atheism is not my identity. I do not define myself as an atheist. I define myself as an "ape", and I have a DNA evidence for that. You define me as an atheist, because you cannot read what I write without classifying me with this title.
    Here the news: I don't give a shit about how you define me. Also, I don't have a problem with admitting that I am poisoning people if it's going to fit my visual or characteristic appearence in your psyche. If anybody reading my writings and realising that I am actually poisoning them, they can always go and Fock themselves. If any member of my species are listening to individual apes like me, or great thinkers like you, instead of using accumulated knowledge of humanity, evidence of science, or realities of their planet, so they are stupid enough to be deceived, to be poisoned and they also deserve to practice any sort of trouble they are experiencing. Fock them too.

    I am an ape, not a snake. Your ummah can not solve any of their actual problems, so they will probably hunt their demons instead. As long as they are your ummah, and you are part of it, you will do that. Good luck to you.

    It's obvious that you are sprited. Yet "resilient" part of you is going to harm you, not me or anybody else.

    I told you, if anybody listens to me or to you instead of using their own judgement on things can go and Fock themselves, because they would prove that they are useless anyway.

    How can I be a fraud, I admitted already that my intention is to poison other people's minds. Open cards, no hidden fraud.

    And you can go and Fock yourself too... You pathetic creationist creature.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  11. Bizza Registered Senior Member

    But there's no tweaking Iceaura. That would be like the Bible Code if that were the case and I would agree with you 100%. But this is not what we do when trying to interpret the Quran. As I have already shown, there are renowned professional scientists that have studied the Quran subjectively and without bias and even they couldn't deny the validity of it being factually correct.

    So in the example I presented re: Prof. Moore and many other scientists of his calibre; were all "naive" in their interpretations as well? Do you think you have more authority than those people whom can understand their craft better than anyone else? I'm not trying to put you down mate, but I am presenting evidences of people who know better than you or I about a particular subject or field of study.
  12. Bizza Registered Senior Member

    Just when I think you can't be any more idiotic and obtuse to what has been presented, you go and outdo yourself again?

    Where did I say that the Quran was anything near the Bible Code? Where did I say it was like that Mickhead?:shrug:

    The facts I have presented in the Quran were in no way like the BC and no ‘mathematical language system’ or a system of “numerical occurrences” is used. The information is presented in a standard fashion and is not intended to be used or read in any other way, besides the way it is presented. The rest is up for interpretation, conjecture (or agreement), and scientific validity (or acceptance).
  13. Bizza Registered Senior Member


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  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    We're still waiting for that ONE thing you have learned from the Qur'an, that you think should be taught at Universities the entire world over - something that students don't already get reading a bit of Indian, Chinese or Greek philosophy - then write it NOW.

    I would have thought this would be VERY easy considering you're using a book written by "GOD". Gee Bizza, you're the one with the magical "Perfect" book written by "GOD".

    So, lets have it, the stage is yours.
  15. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member


    Wow, nice way to phrase a question... Indian, Chinese, and Greek philosophy are not core subjects- you could have added Islamic studies to that list as well...

    Your questions are emphatically disingenuous.

    Peace be unto you

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  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    OMG do you guys want to read some funny shit. Check out so-called "Embryology in the Qur'an" pffff HAAA LOL...

    Here's Bizza's "Qur'anic" Science:

    "Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump." (Quran 23:14)
    This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh. :bugeye:

    "Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." (Quran 23:14)
    This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.


    Can you imagine what it must have been like trying to make ANY sort of reasonable progress with THIS weight tied around your neck??? By the Gods, I can see now why in 800 years of "Islamic Golden Age" (the longest Golden Age by about 700 years) only a handful of genius Arabs were allowed to bloom.

    It must be weird, wondering why, you know, with the Perfect Qur'an that it was instead the secularized rationalist Europeans that had the Renaissance and not the superstitious Arabs? I mean "chewed meat" gee Gods is a clever pappy. That's for Gods damn sure.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    No it's really easy 786, you have your magical book with GODS voice printed in it - surely SURELY there must be something in there that would be worthwhile to teach at University. OH I KNOW - how about Mohammad was the Last Prophet and the Qur'an is Perfect

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    Yes, all graduating Japanese, Brazilian, American, Chinese, Russian students really need to know that. I mean - it so, so deep.

    Look 786, here's your chance to shine - surely with your magical Qur'an you can open to ANY page and pull out wisdom so deep, I mean, Creator of the Universe kind of superman wisdom and blow us all away.

    If not I'm going to start wondering if the Qur'an isn't some sort of hack job.
  18. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    This was the only funny part about your post... led me to believe you were laughing at your own stupidity :shrug:

    Peace be unto you

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  19. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    See what is funny is that you're simply going again on an attack, not justifying why you chose to include 'indian, chinese..." philosophies in your question and left out islamic studies...

    Secondly you failed to respond to me when you asked for a verse that was enlightening which I gave you in another thread... Now am I supposed to entrain this 'hit and run' BS- I don't think so....

    Peace be unto you

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  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member


    I find it really sad that you can not find one thing in your Perfect book of God that you think it worth teaching at University.

    meh... it's not really surprising really. It's not all that good of a read. A lot of magical god doing this and perfect little Mohammad doing that - I think Uni kids would get more out of reading Tolkien or Harry Potter by far.

    Now that we know there is nothing worth teaching at University, I'm wondering, why do you suppose the teachings of the Indian Buddha were so widely respected in China whereas the teaching of the Arab Mohammad were not? Let me guess, they just didn't "Get It". Not like you - right 786. It all makes sense to you.

    All Hail Xenu (pbuh)! Intergalactic Warlord! And his last Prophet Ron Hubbard (pbuh).

    It's pretty obvious why to me

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  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Clearly you have not read the Qur'an
  22. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    Hahahahahaha...... If anyone wants to learn how to dodge requests.... Here is your example..... What happened Michael tongue-tied..... why did you specifically include those philosophies into a question that didn't need them to be there, and then you are asking for something from the Quran which was already given to you but you didn't respond to that before but expect people to continue responding to your 'hit and run' BS tactics--

    Its obvious to me why you're at the lower class of intelligent people (I'm being nice, should be 'unintelligent people' that belong in the Cesspool

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    Peace be upon

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  23. draqon Banned Banned

    Those who can read arabic and know Quaran well. please tell what do the writings on the boy's leg say.

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