The Proof for ETI

I have proofs, and arguments, that I am willing to share, and put their durability to the test. The evidence for Aliens is simply insurmountable, the evidence for no aliens holds little water, at least what I have encountered thus far. Let's weigh them against other here.

I would like to say, in advance, due to an unpleasant experience with another member. Let's try to be more open, mature, with each others views. I do not agree, with the detractors of aliens, but nonetheless, I do not disrespect their view. It is due to a system of media sanitation, and social sanitation, that anything associated with Aliens and UFO's, is rejected, attacked and ridiculed. I can understand the fear of ridicule in voicing a belief that shakes the structure of society.

I was merely attacked, for being convinced they exist. Imagine, the treatment, someone whose had an experience with aliens, would be given. It is understandable, why so many UFO sightings, and Abduction experiences, are never reported.

In a society, where half the world's population believes in Gods, attests to feeling his presence, heavens and hells, in a country that constitutionally accepts God, and prints," In God we trust" on dollar bills, despite the absence of evidence, how can then the belief in Aliens and UFO's be ridiculized, when there IS evidence, mountains of evidence, to support it.

Scepticism is always good. I myself, am a very sceptical person. If we are not sceptical, our intellectual faculties do not develop. However, this vicious denial, and attacking, character assassination, the predisposition to branding anyone who attests to the belief in Aliens a loony/crakpot; is not scepticism; it's fanaticism masquerading as scepticism.

So it is my humble request, that we do not indulge in such malicious behaviour here(Persol) and instead let's objectively analyse all the proof, FOR, and even AGAINST aliens one at a time.

I will open this discussion, with one proof for Aliens:

THE DISCLOSURE PROJECT

Summary: over 400 top ranking officials, from the government, NSA, CIA, USAF, NASA armed forces, scientists, and technicians have testified to Aliens, UFO's, and a government cover-up of of aliens:

This Discloureproject is recent to me, I discovered it just 2 months back. I was made aware of this, by a member on a message board, who posted a free link to the video. I otherwise, would not have expended by own income, for something that sounded too good to be true. I have researched extensively into this movement, their associated organisations, the limited press feedback and their penetration into the public awareness. From my findings, it shows that while the Disclosure project had an audience of many media entities at their press conference in 2001, they were painfully ignored, and even mocked. In the public domain, there has been little interest and again a lot of mockery from those who are aware.

In fact, the extent of prejudice against such a "discloure" is very strong. Even if you suggest to people to go and look at this they instantly turn hostile towards you.

Now the establishment at Disclosure are not helping their own case themselves, by forcing the public to purchase video's, books, dvd's merchandize, or subscribe. I was put off intially myself, and had it not been for the 2 hour free video download, I would have most certainly have not paid any more interest. On this agenda, it certainly can look like a ploy to make money. Having said that, in this case, it does not look like this is the case. This is an obviously resource-stucken, poorly funded movement, in desperate need of investments. In fact, they claim they have only made up 5% of funds and could not materialise the 2003 conference due to the lack of funds. The fact that this group is still in function and in a constrant stuggle against forces, would suggest there is a genuine drive and impetus for this movement, with little monetary gain. Further more, they have obtained certification for non-profit status.

This would suggest, that it is perhaps unlikely, for the sole motivation to be monetary. We could consider the possibility of this being a right-wing or environmental party due to their firm opposition of weaponzing space, who could be using an UFO/ETI agenda to disguise their true agenda. This is more likely than the last scenorio, however still has flaws that nullify it. The arguments Against being:

The set-up is more centralized on ETI/UFO, and space weaponization is only one argument of many. It would constitute lying and henceforth be too risky, if founded, which could result in legal reprecausions and a loss of crediblity.

The other possibility, is, this is a group of UFO/ETI nutcases. It could be true. However, these are NOT ordinary people, these are doctors, attorneys, US air force generals, navy, intelligence. These are smart/intelligent and educated people, that have served the US in the gulf war, in the cold war and various other crisis, are obviously held in high regards. So again it is unlikely, that they're some fanatical organization:

Moving onto the 2 hour press conference. I have established, that this has taken place, the video is not fake. 21 witnesses, and the director, Steven G spoke, with a brief Q and A period at the end: The following points were made by the collective testimony:

The following points were made by the collective testimony:

1:UFO have ben sighted, and recorded by the state.

2: Crashed UFO's, that may have been shot down, have been recovered - sometimes with bodies in them, which at times have been alive.

3: There is an ETI base on one side of the moon

4: There are 58 types of different species visisting us, they are mix of humonids, that could walk around in regular public and not be noticed, and greys, and many variations of greys and others

5: A project calleld the Alien Reproduction Vehicle, based on reverse-engineered UFO's, are being tested in wind tunnels, approaching speeds of mach6 to mach20. These vehicles are based on Alien-technology, however they are being manufactured by humans. They work on anti-gravity propulsion. There are various other black projects on Alien-based-technology that are raking in dozens of billions of dollars.

6: US has plans to weaponise space, and is spending billions in monitoring space, space based weapons, and lasers.

7: US has obtained such Alien technology, that could revolutionize the world, solve our energy crisis problems, eradicate poverty, and the world could unite,to become a peaceful planet.

8: The security and secrey is so sophisticated and compartmentalized, that even congress AND the president don't have access to them. There is also a media sanitation program to ensure the information does not leak into the public.

These are extremely big claims, and render everything else in the world, in our daily lives, secondary, and if there is an ounce of truth in their claims, then they MUST be addressed. Because if true, this will be the biggest event in known human history.

The manner in which these statements were made by the witnesses, did not look "acted" or "rehearsed" these people ARE who they say they are. It is another matter, wether what they say is TRUE.

This was a serious outpouring by these witnesses, who looked convinced of what they were saying, and they were recalling facts, and experience with ease, and most of the individual testimonies were natural, a few were showing intimidation from speaking out, a natural anxiety in speaking to large audiences. Most of them did not rely too much on written notes. Some also had, for media scrutiny, documents that confirmed their testimony.

They were clearly intelligent, and sensible, and emotional people. Now if this was a hoax, it was a damn good one, as somehow top ranking officials were roped in, and trained to act and give Oscar winning performances.

These witnesses, top ranking officials, that have served their country, ARE taking an oath, that they will testify against Congress, with what they have told us. They clearly cannot backtrack now, as they have been recorded by the media and on video. There is too much at risk and little to gain for the individual witnesses, hence, making their claims even more credible.

If they are convicted of fraudulent acts, or convicted of lying to the government, not only will all witnesses be shamed in front of the public; they will lose their jobs; they will lose credibility; and they will face jail sentences. This is much more different from the disinformation circulating around in public, from some delusional authors or authors capitalizing on the interests in UFO/Aliens from the public; as the stakes are much, much, much, much higher.

Now I ask you, these men and woman, who have served a superpower nation, US, clearly have exceptional intelligence, a lot of experience in life, and a lot of respect; WOULD they risk it all; on a petty hoax? Would you, if you were in their position. The chances are too low. If it's all about making money, they could easily do something else, that doesn't involve being torn apart in front of their friends, family, general public, and thrown in jail for the rest of their lives.

This is one proof of many. Let's dance.

 

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More, on Disclosure project:

BRIEFING POINTS:

http://www.disclosureproject.com/briefingpoints.htm

LINK TO DOWNLOAD 2 HOUR CONFERENCE VIDEO

www.topsecrettestimony.com/npcc_full.wmv

I recommend you right click and save if you have slow connections. Otherwise you can stream it. The download is 100% free.

 

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OTHER NEWS ARTICLES CONFIRMING DP'S ASSERTIONS:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/01/12/CM200763.DTL

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...ode=&contentId=A20584-2002Feb28&notFound=true
The shadow government exists

US AND INTERNATIONAL MEDIA COVERAGE OF 2001 CONFERENCE:

http://www.disclosureproject.org/presscoverage.htm

 

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Excellent post!

though lately i find it hard to beleave that there are 58 (documented) species, and especaily when greys were mentioned i felt dissapointed, it would be nice if there were that many types but that clashes with other evidence ect....

i really cant see how greys exist , and it made me suspicous when the man mentioned them .

But the rest of what the disclosure project had to say was fasinating

 

You could bring Aliens to shake hands with President George Bush and blah blah but then what?What? I mean what is the future then? Get a Life Guys.We have got more things to do.If they exist,then i must see some phenomenon,isnt it? then let me see it for myself to believe.I dont want others to elude me.The other day some of our friends saw a blimp to think for a UFO! heh..

bye!

 

Zion, what is this "get a life", don't we already have lives, and choose to live it in a way we choose. If I choose to live it, by seeking truth, then that is my choice.

Good bye to you.

 

Thanks Star_one,

Well 58, is what they confirmed. I do not think it is hard to believe, in fact I would suspect there is more, if life is a commonality in the universe. If they, 400 high ranking and government related officials are saying it is exactly 58, then there must be some truth to the assertion.

In fact, they have mostly mentioned "other" type of aliens, like humanoids, and some aliens that look almost identical to us. In addiition to greys, and variation of greys. Some life that is diametrically opposite to us.

I can understand your resentment for the term "greys" this is only the unofficial name of this type of alien that we relate to. I can understand, that the name "greys" has been stigamatized, yet this type of species is the most reported in thousands of Alien abduction cases. Now, if DP, is confirming that, there again must be some truth to it.

 

I guess so

Ive been reding into abductions and in particular the work of Bud Hopkins and Dr David JAcobs and was shocked by their conclusions, but i guess, if abductions are happening then they arent going to be benevolent

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Its just , if there are at least 58 species visiting us , would they let another species try and conqueor us?

Maybe there is hope

But i guess we will find out soon enough

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Did they mention the moon in the press conference? it was a while ago since i saw the video

Cheers

 

CrazyMike,

You are totally correct to believe in UFOs and the alien presence. I too read everything I can get my hands on in regard to this subject. Some of us have been lucky enough to see for ourselves flying saucers, so this is not speculation. I admire Dr Steven Greer and have watched two of his videos, lasting four hours! They provide conclusive proof of a cover-up going back to 1947. The social, religious, political and economic implications of this reality cannot be overstated. I could debate this subject endlessly, but for now, enough has been said.

 

Speculation and assumption are funny.

 

Thinking you saw something without any further evidence... ::cough cough:: physical evidence... is speculation.

Note that Tononi6 jumps to the conclusion without following any process of information retrieval other than, "I think it is true, so it must be."

That form of philosophy is over. Try empiricism.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence Tonon. Please do debate this subject, it will only benefit the discussion

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Tell me, about your UFO encounter.

Ellimist: Can you listen to his side of the story, before you start jumping to conclusions. It is not reasonble.

 

Proof AGAINST ETI

THE LOW PROBABILITY OF LIFE

This is the most common argument against ETI or life in general beyond terra, it is the argument of sheer astonishment of the "extremely low probabilities" for life and all conditions being miraculously right. There is little basis for this, beyond an emotive one, and it in fact an exercise in ignorance, and in itself is self-contradictory.

I will completely strip this argument naked and show you how small it really is. It is absolutely speculative, it is unsupported by scientific and logical systems. In fact, it is almost fabricated.

When this argument is made, all of the factors below are ignored: I will, explore them.

1: How vast the universe is
2: Is the universe chaotic, or structured
3: Does mathmatical miracles exist on the cosmic scale
4: Does life require fixed conditions
5: How exactly does life form
6: How abundant is carbon, and how abundant are the prerequisites

We will start with my statement: If life has formed once in the universe, than it is mathematically certain that has and will form again, just like other manifestations in the universe


1: The universe is unimaginably vast, and brimming with stars, and galaxies. According to latest estimates, there are over 70 sextillion, or 7000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the known universe, in fact recent findings indicate there are more galaxies than stars in the universe.

It is unknown if the universe is finite, largely infinite. or infinite, there is empirical proof for neither. However, the logical proof, and what most astronomers automatically assume, is the universe is infinite in spatial extent. If it was finite, then what exists beyond it, if not infinite space or an infinite void.

Thus the assumption of the universe being infinite holds. What the implications an infinite universe holds are dramatic, and we will revisit them later in this post.

For now, we are going to assume only our known universe. Estimates are 13 to 15 billion light years across.

According to a predicate of the Drake equation there should be at minimum at least one instance of intelligent life per galaxy, in say 70 sextillion galaxies, there should be at maximum, 70 sextillion instances of intelligent life. Not all galaxies are capable.

The current estimates are extremely favourable; 1000 in 1

Even if we multiply the predicate of the drake equation, to 1 in 10 trillion galaxies, now this is a purely arbitrary number, there would be at maximum 7 billion instances of intelligent life in 70 sextillion galaxies. Even in such dramatically rare conditions, there is an abundance of life - in the known universe!

However, why should the event of intelligent life be so astonishing rare, or accidental.
Is life a rare probabilistic event on the cosmic scale, or a commonality?

There is a lot of reason to believe that life is a logical state in evolution. When we discuss evolution, instantly cells mutating crops into our head. This is only the evolution of life, there is also evolution of a universe, evolution of interstellar gas, the evolution of stars, the evolution of galaxies, the evolution of planets, and then comes the evolution of life, and then the evolution of intelligent life.

Evolution does not stop after producing one instance of a physical manifestation.

Is there only one instance of interstellar gases: No, zillions
Is there only one instance of stars: No, zillions
Is there only one instance of planets: No, zillions
Is there only one instance of life: No, zillions
Is there only one instance of combined neurons, cells: no, zillions
Is there only one instance of intelligent life: zillions in one chance, there isn't

2: The sheer probability of existence, and the combined probabilities to the event of life, with blind chance, is so astonishingly low w.r.t us, that it is mathematically impossible. In fact according to her Borel's law of single chance, anything with a probability of 1 in 10^50 or lower, will not occur and probability of our reality, as per our laws, is infintesimal. It makes the single event of life, look like a grain of sand in all the beaches and deserts of the world. If something so impossible can happen, why can't life happen again? This is assuming a chaotic universe, in a structured universe or unblind chance of events, where the universe is a self-organized system, the possibility for life increases in many orders of magnitude w.r.t chaos.

The probability of the formation of stars, galaxies, planets, asteroids, and other celestial objects is also low wrt to our scale - yet there are zillions and zillions and zillions of instances of these - so why can't there be zillions and zillions and zillions of instances of life, or indeed intelligent life?

3: If the universe can exist, inspite of the impossibility of it's existence. If self-replicating microorganism that exist inspite of a probability of 1 in 10^40,000, then mathematical miracles of chance do not exist on the cosmic scale, and what we perceive to be mathematical miracles, like the instance of intelligent life, are in fact common and abundant in the universe.

In fact, "mathematical miracles"on our scale, are abundant too; winning lotteries; being struck by lightning; having an IQ of 200+; contracting a rare disease, astonishing coincidences - and none of them just happen once.

What is the probability of this:

Henry Ziegland thought he had dodged fate. In 1883, he broke off a relationship with his girlfriend who, out of distress, committed suicide. The girl's brother was so enraged that he hunted down Ziegland and shot him. The brother, believing he had killed Ziegland, then turned his gun on himself and took his own life. But Ziegland had not been killed. The bullet, in fact, had only grazed his face and then lodged in a tree. Ziegland surely thought himself a lucky man. Some years later, however, Ziegland decided to cut down the large tree, which still had the bullet in it. The task seemed so formidable that he decided to blow it up with a few sticks of dynamite. The explosion propelled the bullet into Ziegland's head, killing him. (Ripley's Believe It or Not!)

4: Does life require fixed conditions

No it doesn't. We know it doesn't. We have found and observed microorganisms that have adapted at the extremist of temperatures, that even thrive in these conditions; heat-adapted Archaea called hyperthermophiles. These bacteria are not just surviving, they are thriving in the boiling water of over 100ºC. We have life at temperatures of 2 ºC. Living organisms, especially microorganisms, are also present in the frozen soils of arctic and alpine environments. The bacteria, named Psychrobacter cryopegella, can grow at -10 Celsius and can stay alive and even keep metabolizing at an astonishing -20 Celsius.

We have found life that exists in highly acidic environments of pH 1.4, and highly alkaline environments of pH 13. We have found life in the Earth crusts. We have found life that can sustain 1100 bars of pressure. We have found life that does not need oxygen. To top it of, there is the possibility of there being life that is silicon based.

What does this tell us? It tells us that the instance of life does not need perfect conditions, life can adapt and survive virtually anywhere, and thus can exist on other planets too, even if the conditions of that planet are not the same as our own.

5: How exactly does life form?

As discussed above, it logically follows, that life is a natural stage in evolution. The life that formed here on Earth began from the prerequisites of hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon, to form water and basic microorganisms. How long does it take for this to happen? Astonishingly fast! The age of Earth is 4.55 billion years. Earth's formation ended around 3.9 billion years ago and an ocean rapidly formed. 400 million years later, microbial communities existed.

There is also a possibility, as some of our DNA is considered to be extraterrestrial, that a meteorite, which have been shown to be a rich source of a wide range of organic compounds that are crucial for life, may have seeded life.

Therefore, the prerequisites for life can be seeded as well, in additional to evolving naturally. In addition to this, is the theory of cross-contamination. If there has been an interplanetary civilization, or an interplanetary microbe, then planets can be contaminated with life from other sources of life. Mars for instance, will be contaminated, when we settle there.

This further reinforces, how natural the occurrence of life is. It's almost as if life is a predetermined goal. The universe is preprogrammed with evolution.

From thereon life evolved with what creationists insist, is the evolution of a predominantly left handed amino acid biogenic chemistry, this suggests a natural selection process in evolution. While this could be true, it could also be, that right-handed amino acids were also selected and later a bias to left-handed amino acids formed.

I could draw a parallel to the formation of galaxies from there. In assuming that once a galaxy is established, and it is a dud to support life, all stars burn too fast(right-handed); what is there to suggest that it will halt evolving - and not form a suitable star. If life is a natural stage in evolution, then it only natural that a dud galaxy will evolve a system TO evolve (left-handed)

6: It is extremely abundant, everything from carbon to Aluminum Chloride. The theory is these elements formed from the fusion of Hydrogen and Helium, abundant in the universe, to form heavier elements.

In fact we have already singled out areas in our own galaxy, that have all the prerequisites for life, and have had 75% more time than us to evolve:

To summarize: The argument of "low" probability of life reoccurring in the universe holds no water at all, as there is no basis for it.In fact, a point I have kept withdrawn to now - life can survive on two known places in our own solar system - Earth, and Mars, and one that is likely to harbor life; Europa.

We will now revisit the infinite universe possibility. What are the implications of an infinite universe? In one word, dramatic. If the universe was infinite, and it is assumed to be(encompassing infinite finite bubble universes) there is infinite mathematical probability, all events that can happen, will happen, and if they happen once, they will happen again, and again and again. Thus all instances of physical manifestations are infinite, this including intelligent life. There is a uniform distribution.

There somewhere in the universe, cetaceans(dolphins/whales)have evolved as an intelligent civilization. Somewhere in the universe, reptiles have evolved as an intelligent civilization. This may also be true, even without the universe being infinite.

In fact, in an infinite universe, infinite perpendicular universes exist, with infinite copies of us, our time lines, and actions and our possible actions, even variant laws of physics, where impossibilities or counterfactuals can occur. According to string theory and M theory, not only do parallel universes exist in our universe, but in other dimensions.

Now it could be said, that if all events can happen, then the event of only one instance of life can happen. Yes, but how can we say it can happen, and irrespective of that, the chances of that are so infinitesimally small, 1/infinity, and if you support it, you would contradict and ridiculize your initial position - that is rejecting alien life on the basis of "extremely low" probability.

In conclusion. Not only is the proof of "low probability of life" wrong, it is utter nonsense, and nothing more than pessimism or egotism. In fact, it follows, that it is unscientific and irrational to believe, or even contemplate, that we are the only instance of life in this vast universe, despite of the overwhelming evidence. Even in our own Milkyway, there are 100-200 billion stars, and it is unknown how many of these star systems have planets, thus the possibility of there being more life/intelligent life in our own galaxy - is a good one.

So anyone who believes in ETI or has had an experience with ETI. Let me assure you, you have every right to voice your belief/experience, because it is virtually mathematically certain that you are right, and you are supported by logic, science, mathematics and our observable universe. As for sceptics what is the basis for your scepticism now?

This is a 2nd proof of many. Many more to come.

 

They may not be benevolent, they may not be hostile either. In fact, you would imagine in a universe that is teemling with life, and in which many civilizations have contacted each other. There would exist an intergalactic government that regulates and monitors a civilizations actions and colonizational efforts whence it becomes a spacefaring civilization. Such a structure would solve Fermi's paradox.

 

The way our civ burns through resources and makes war why would anyone even want to talk to us? We have only been sending out signals that are detectable for maybe seventy years and the first Tv transmission was of Hitler by the time aliens recieved and decoded that transmission they would be getting footage of the world wars and then more war and then teletubbies.

Why would they even waste time and resources to travel all the way here just to tell us what they know of the universe.

 

I hear you, FNG; and to be honest, if I was an alien, I would not want to stop by Earth. Not in such a primitive, self-obsessed, and ignorant civilization. However, the natural curoisity would get the better of me, and the fact that this civilizations arrival in space is eminent, and it has plans to weaponize space and and colonize it, and poses a danger to its own well being with WMD and perhaps a future danger to others. I am sure I would be a concerned Alien.

Also, travelling to us, may not be a waste of time and resources at all to them, especially if it is capable of FTL and energy in the order of Planks constant.

 

As regards to the final paragraph the answer seems to be that they have cloned themselves into a state where their emotions are stunted. They seem to envy human nature; there is evidence that a human-alien hybrid is being produced and mass abductions taking place for this very purpose. Eisenhower is thought to have agreed to a limited number of abductions of American citizens in return for help with ET technology. If this sounds far-fetched, books by Col Philip Corso, Budd Hopkins, Dr John Mack and Dr Michael Wolf (Ex MJ12 Member) will explain it in some detail. There are probably fewer than forty people in the world who know the total truth of the ET reality on this planet and I am in despair when I report to you that not one of them appears to be an elected politician; this is why the handling of this issue is said to be a threat to democracy; that and the manner of funding ET research.

 

Tononi6, extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proof. Do you have any proof of such an agenda?

 

SOME FURTHER READING ON PROBABILITY ARGUMENT:

www.nature.com/nsu/020513/020513-3.html

 

No, I have no proof.