The problem with atheism – No rational connection between the methodology and object

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by lightgigantic, Jul 20, 2008.

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  1. Myles

    Myles Registered Senior Member

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    When I see a man going to Lourdes with one leg and coming back with two, I'll believe in miracles. Let's face it, one miracle is as easy as another.
     
    Myles, Jul 20, 2008
    #21

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  3. Myles

    Myles Registered Senior Member

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    That's because the Romas and the Jews put Jesus to death. You have the proof but you won't accept it.
     
    Myles, Jul 20, 2008
    #22

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  5. snake river rufus

    snake river rufus Registered Senior Member

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    A person who never existed was "put to death" and that's why (you claim) god doesn't answer prayers. Sure

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    snake river rufus, Jul 20, 2008
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  7. Myles

    Myles Registered Senior Member

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    I'll pray for you, my son. Do you read the word of god in the Holy Bible ?
     
    Myles, Jul 20, 2008
    #24
  8. snake river rufus

    snake river rufus Registered Senior Member

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    You are not the only person wasting his/her time on prayer. I no longer read the bible- it's not real, factual, or even entertaining. For the record I don't read much other fiction either.
     
    snake river rufus, Jul 20, 2008
    #25
  9. Fraggle Rocker

    Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    "Proof" of what??? We have no proof that Jesus was even an actual historical figure! All we ever had to support it were the writings of Josephus, and that portion of his work was proven to be a forgery in the last half of the 20th century.

    All we have "proof" of is that the Christians "put Jesus to life," as it were, by believing in his existence despite the lack of decent evidence.

    It's one thing to believe in your own fairytale. It's quite another to base your opinion of an entire ethnic group on the role you imagine that they played in your fairytale. This is one of the myriad things that should make any rational person absolutely LOATHE religion. Throughout the past millennium and a half, there have actually been people--lots of them--who hated and persecuted Jews because, in their fairytale version of history, the Jews killed a person who only existed in that fairytale.

    I've got a great idea. Let's make up a new religion, and in our fairytale the Christians murdered Winnie the Pooh. Then we can persecute them.
     
    Fraggle Rocker, Jul 21, 2008
    #26
  10. Fraggle Rocker

    Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Wait a minute... thinking back on my favorite Saturday morning kids' shows...the Christians actually DID kill Pee-Wee Herman! Not Paul Reubens, but Pee-Wee, with their intolerance and narrow-mindedness. We loved Pee-Wee. Even though my wife and I were in our 40s, we always looked forward to catching his show and we were really pissed off when it was canceled.

    It's time to start persecuting Christians! We've got a really good excuse! They killed Pee-Wee! Spread the word! Put them in ghettoes! It doesn't matter if Pee-Wee is imaginary, he's exactly as real as Jesus!
     
    Fraggle Rocker, Jul 21, 2008
    #27
  11. snake river rufus

    snake river rufus Registered Senior Member

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    Roger that.
     
    snake river rufus, Jul 21, 2008
    #28
  12. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    phlogistician
    why?
    you have serious doubts whether atheism establishes god as knowable or not?
    I mean surely in 4000+ posts you have seen (and probably even mentioned some yourself) a few means that atheists use to determine how there is no proof for god
    ditto above
     
    lightgigantic, Jul 21, 2008
    #29
  13. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Snake River Rufus

    Myles

    you would expect different results from an irrational methodology?

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    lightgigantic, Jul 21, 2008
    #30
  14. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Nasor

    “
    god is cognitively superior to us ... not a prayer machine or something

    Maybe your issue is more with the necessity of suffering in the material world. There are other threads that deal with that ....
     
    lightgigantic, Jul 21, 2008
    #31
  15. Myles

    Myles Registered Senior Member

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    Repent before it is too late.Believe and you will be spared the torments of the Lake of Fire.,

    All Praise the Son of God !
     
    Myles, Jul 21, 2008
    #32
  16. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Snake River Rufus

    I am claiming that the atheistic methodology for determining god as an "object" is irrational since it obviously only works in paradigms for examining things inferior to us.
     
    lightgigantic, Jul 21, 2008
    #33
  17. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Fraggle
    so there is an element of control, yes?
    so there is an element of control, yes?

    all of which involve having a controllable element ....

    Basically anything that involves measurement involves control. I thought the eg about the sun (and as it compares to god) in the OP made that clear

    ditto above
    if you can say it in your own words, you should be able to read it in others

    there are however two points that cannot be empirically determined, even in principle (as mentioned in the OP)
    so given this statement
    and the information presented in the OP (namely the inherent limitations of that methodology), certain problems ensue ... namely how can we determine the nature of something that is cognitively and physically greater than ourselves
    so how would this solve the problem of studying something cognitively and physically superior to ourselves?
     
    lightgigantic, Jul 21, 2008
    #34
  18. iceaura

    iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    How do dogs do it, with people?

    Empty question anyway - if we can't determine anything about its nature or even establish its existence, asserting that it is "cognitively and physically greater than ourselves" is obviously just talking.
     
    iceaura, Jul 21, 2008
    #35
  19. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    lightgigantic:

    Notice, however, that many of the most useful scientific instruments (thermometers included) work by extending our "natural" perception, often from one mode to another. Thus, a thermometer, for example, can translate heat concepts from the realm of feeling to sight. A microscope allows us to see things that were previously invisible.

    Astronomers, for example, have to cope with that problem all the time. So do historians. And yet, we still know about the universe and about history.

    Another wonder of the scientific method is that we have been able to deduce the operation of processes that apply generally, such as evolution. One does not need to know the details of one's own conception in order to deduce how humans in general are conceived.

    It's a good thing that scientists have other tools at their disposal, then.

    How can spirituality give you reliable knowledge?
     
    James R, Jul 21, 2008
    #36
  20. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    so if you asked an american dog who was, say, the president of the USA, they could give an accurate answer?
    I mean seriously, you don't see how cognitive horizons of a dog make for a mostly incomplete picture of human affairs?

    the issue is that you can't establish that with the controlled experiment... so its kind of like calling upon a thermometer to tell us what time it is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2008
    lightgigantic, Jul 21, 2008
    #37
  21. phlogistician

    phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Because it's all allegeorical?

    It's not the job of atheists or atheism to do that. Atheists simply do not believe in god. It's not a quest to prove the contrary viewpoint to theism, as too many theists see it, it's just a null position on the subject.

    Like I said, atheism isn't a quest for proof of anything. It seems you don't understand what atheism is, and hence your rambling and badly thought out posts.
     
    phlogistician, Jul 21, 2008
    #38
  22. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    JamesR
    Well thats how empiricism "works" isn't it?
    What else do you expect?
    That claims of love be clarified with a tape measure?
    :bugeye:
    Astronomers cope with the problem of studying objects cognitively greater than themselves?

    and also an examination of the past 50 years of say, deductions about the age of the universe, tends to confirm the level of certainty in such fields
    none of which can hope to approach a subject that is physically and cognitively greater than themselves
    if you think that the words "reliable" and "empirical" are synonymous, this will not go anywhere
     
    lightgigantic, Jul 21, 2008
    #39
  23. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    and?
    I mean using allegory is a valuable tool in communication and making an issue comprehensible, don't you think?
    I know.
    Yet for some reason they take it upon themselves
    yet here you are, to inform the world

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    “
    tell me once again how god doesn't exist.

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    lightgigantic, Jul 21, 2008
    #40
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