# The Paul File

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Jul 12, 2011.

1. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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No Arthur, only in your dreams. That simply is not true. You are making stuff up again.

Canada, a medical school is a faculty or school of a university that offers a three- or four-year Doctor of Medicine (M.D. or M.D.C.M.) degree. Generally, medical students begin their studies after receiving a bachelor's degree - Wikipedia.

Most medical schools outside The United States are 5 or six year programs. Nurse practioners and physicians assistants have at least as much training.

You are throwing up chaff again Arthur.

As I said and per my references getting an MD in most other industrial countries is a six year process - the same educational requirement for nurse practioners and physicians assistants.

The unpleasant bottom line for you here, is that we in the US have nurse practioners and physicians assistants acting as physicians (performing the same tasks as physicians) and billing as physicans but cannot operate as independent agents and compete with physicians.

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3. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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I have taught at Medical School and it is, IMO, a racket. The places are reduced to keep the steady stream of Undergraduates paying ridiculous tuition and majoring in Biology when most of them will have memorized a bunch of useless (for them) information and not end up working in Medicine.

I can not tell you the number of complete idiots who have been accepted because their parents are willing to pay full fees OR just plain dumb luck - while at the same time very competent students are passed by in the 1000s.

Even last year there was a complaint too many doctors are being trained - which is going to cause a bubble, which will hurt undergraduate numbers if the wage goes too low in 2023. The specialist placements are just as ridiculous. If not more so.

I have mentioned before about the spinal surgeon who chooses patients purely on the amount he can make (he drives a convertable Ferrari). If the amount is not above the line, he simply says hes not competent enough to do the work and passes it to the other surgeons in the area who are and will not turn away a patient. THEY are old school. HE is new school. Thats in Australia where the State has its idiotic hands all over the place. Hell, there was medical school who was going to be shut down just last month (but Im sure it wont happen) for how poorly they train medical students. and THAT says something - Australia is one of the worse training programs in the world. Students from India, even Malaysia, circles around Australian students.

As someone who has worked in the field, I know all about the scam that is medicine. Itd take decades to straighten out this mess - which will never happen. Theres too much money and influence and vested interest to ever fix the system. Itll just limp along crappily with the general public never the wiser. Along with everything.

Ever hear that saying: "The first generation builds the business, the second makes it a success, and the third wrecks it” WE are that third generation ... .... ..... .... only I`d argue the second generation made it a success ONLY for themselves.

Last edited: Apr 10, 2012

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5. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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BS Joe.

The first 4 years of training are the 4 year Pre-Med course leading to the BS degree. So no one becomes a practicing GP in any major country with just 1 or 2 additional years of training after they get their BS degree.

What you left out in the Canadian program is that though they have the MD degree in 3 or 4 years added onto their 4 year BS Pre-Med degree, they THEN enter their Residency Training and CAN'T set up practice till they complete that as well.

Note the "in the final year of residency training", depending on the specialty it is at least 2 years long.

So in Canada to become a GP (which is what we are discussing) it takes:

4 years of to get a BS degree in Pre-Med (you have to sit for the MCATs, so you not only have to get this degree you have to do very well in it)

3 to 4 years of Medical School. (The medical school curriculum typically lasts four years. The first two are “pre-clinical,” while the third and fourth provide an opportunity to rotate through the core medical specialties — the “clerkship” — and try different fields.)

2+ years of Residency

So the TYPICAL length of time is 10 years to a GP in Canada the SAME as the US, though some stellar performers might make it in 9 years).

But the requirements to be a Physician Assistant are:

A Bachelor of ARTS degree, with NO requirement for Pre-Med.
No having to pass an MCAT
A 2 year course of study to become a PA.

Clearly NOT anywhere near the same as becoming a GP, which is why they can only practice in a supervised environment and for minor issues at that.

A Nurse Practitioner on the other hand, does have much more training than a PA, which is why they can work without a doctor's supervision:

4 year BSN (which has much of the same content that the Pre-Med degree that a doctor would take, the difference would be in much of the clinical training)

2 years "Residency", the NP schools require that candidates have 2 years working on the Med-Surg floors before entering, this again is not the same as the Intern/Resident program that doctors go through, but does gain them a lot of hand's on experience.

2 year Nurse Practitioner course.

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7. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Yeah, reality is a real bummer for your Arthur.

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I have proven my case., so throw up the chaff and add non relevant and misleading material to your case as you always do (e.g. add residencies). Nurse practioners and physicians assistants can perform do what physicians do but they cannot compete with physicians for patients.

Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
8. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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Yeah, but the difference Joe is I back my version of reality with actual FACTS.

A US and Canadian Dr go through essentially the same type and duration of training, to claim otherwise is silly given the links provided.

Indeed, the U.S. Department of Education through the Licensing Commission on Medical Education (LCME) has accredited all Canadian medical schools.

This distinction is important since it exempts Canadians from having to complete residencies in the U.S.

Second, in over 40 U.S. states, Canadian-licensed physicians are exempted from having to take U.S. examinations in order to obtain medical licenses. These states consider the Licentiate Medical Certificate of Canada (LMCC) examination to be equivalent to the FLEX.

So what this means is that the US pretty much views Canadian Drs to be the equiv of US doctors, because they have had pretty much the exact same training as US Drs.

http://shusterman.com/physiciansimmigrationguide.html

So no Joe, you haven't yet come up with any Western country where you can become a GP type doctor in just 5 or 6 years of education and training, but keep looking.

9. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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LOL, only in your dreams Arthur. You just like to ignore reality. I suggest you go back and maybe read.

10. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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I take it you are challenged by simple Math Joe?

I say Canada is essentially the same as the US and takes 10 years while
you claim it's just 5 or 6 years.

So we look at what it takes in Canada to become a GP:

4 years for a BS degree in Pre-Med (And like the US, you have to sit for the MCATs, so you not only do you have to get this 4 year Pre-Med degree but you have to do very well in it to get a high enough score on your MCATs to even get into Medical School)

Now you take

3 to 4 years of Medical School. (The medical school curriculum typically lasts four years. The first two are “pre-clinical,” while the third and fourth provide an opportunity to rotate through the core medical specialties — the “clerkship” — and try different fields.)

Then you have to complete

2+ years of Residency

So 4 + 4 + 2 = 10 years is the typical length of time to become a GP in Canada, which is the SAME as the US

At 5 or 6 years in Canada you would still be in Medical School and a year or two away from starting your 2+ year residency.

11. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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22,885

Repeating you lies and nonsense ad nauseum and engaging in ad hominem when all else fails will not make them true Arthur.

Here is the stark reality for which you have steadfastly refused to even acknowledge – preferring instead obfuscate with half truths and complete falsehoods.

In the US we have nurse practitioners and physicians assistants who are well trained and doing the traditional work of physicians who must work for institutions or physicians and cannot compete with physicians in the market place for patients. And those physicians are billing the services of these professionals in many cases at physician rates and paying less than physician wages to these individuals.Arthur.

12. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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No Joe, it is you who are clearly wrong, to become a GP takes FAR FAR more training than a Physician Assistant, which is why they can't work independently.
Nurse Practitioners, like I pointed out, go through 6 years of training along with 2 years of clinical work and thus are closer to the 8 years of training and 2 years of clinical work that Doctors go through (though the Internship/Residency of a DR is MUCH more intense of a training program than just working in Med/Surg for 2 years as an RN), so:

IS FALSE

13. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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That is what I find so remarkable about you Arthur. You don't care what the evidence says or what the facts are.

14. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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Yeah, apparently you just can't add.

Welcome BACK to Ignore Joe.

15. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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LOL, yeah reality bites.

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16. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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FALSE Joe.

The Residency requirement is indeed relevant.

Residency is NOT optional Joe, you can't practice as a Medical Doctor until after you have completed this additional professional training.

Which just shows it is you who are trying to ignore a big part of what it takes to become a Medical Doctor. Indeed, I've been saying it's 2 years, but it looks like its actually 3 years for a GP.

And as the links showed, Canada, the UK and Australia all have the same type of Residency training after completing Medical School to become what we call a GP or Medical Doctor.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/becoming-physician.page

Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
17. ### eyeswideshutRegistered Senior Member

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255
Ron Paul Holds Up Silver Ounce and Tells Bernanke He's Killing the Dollar 2/29/12

Keiser Report: Return of the Silver Liberation Army

In this episode, Max Keiser and co-host, Stacy Herbert, discuss the return of the Silver Liberation Army as JP Morgan's Blythe Masters claims the bank does not manipulate silver prices. They also discuss JP Morgan's 'London whale' breaking the credit default swap (CDS) index market with massive prop position. In the second half of the show Max talks to author, Pierre Jovanovic, about Blythe Masters role at JP Morgan and the similarities between the world today and France of the 18th century on the eve of revolution.

18. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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22,885
No this is you again either exhibiting fuzzy logic or deliberately obfuscating.

A medical residency is a post medical graduate specialization. It is optional. It is not required for a medical degree or to practice medicine. This is you talking about things of which you know nothing and/or throwing up more chaff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)

And as the links showed, Canada, the UK and Australia all have the same type of Residency training after completing Medical School to become what we call a GP or Medical Doctor.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/becoming-physician.page[/QUOTE]

Do you even read your references or are your just confused? Residencies are post medical graduate specializations and vary in length by specialization – totally not relevant to this conversation.

You have repeatedly avoided the key issues in this conversation. We in the US have two professions that are well trained and function as physicians, doing the same work physicians do, but those professions cannot compete with physicians by law.

Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
19. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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No Joe, a RESIDENCY is NOT optional and it is required in every state to get a licence to practice Medicine.

Now you are just being silly.

If this difficult and long process wasn't required to practice medicine, then doctors would obviously skip it.

But they can't

http://www.usmle-courses.eu/residency.htm

Last edited: Apr 11, 2012
20. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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LOL, more obfuscation. USMLE is for foriegn medical graduates by the way.

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And a residency is a post medical school specialization per your previous references.

21. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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No Joe, the USMLE is NOT just for foriegn medical gradutates.

http://www.usmle.org/

The United States Medical Licensure Exams (USMLE) are essential to gain a U.S medical residency position and ultimately become a licensed doctor in the U.S.

A residency is a post medical school requirement, but to get your MD License to practice, it is required in EVERY State in the US.

22. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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22,885
\ Repeating yourself ad nauseum will not change reality Arthur.

23. ### adoucetteCaca OccursValued Senior Member

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Yup, and reality agrees with me Joe, not you.

Residency is NOT optional.

It is required to be able to get your licence to practice medicine in every state in the US.

http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html