Perhaps they took a boat Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! or were taken in a boat Would ancient mariners have taken mammoths with them for food on the voyage? Keep some to breed at their new location. Could mammoths have been cultivated by ancient civilizations? Just wild and way out thinking...
FR, Unbelievable, the assumptions you make. Where shall I begin? Maybe I'll work backwards.. You were there so you know these behaviors occurred. Behaviors would be hard to record historically, especially the further you go back in time. What about a Crocodile Dundee type interaxion with animals? You don't think that as technology has evolved today, man has lost a lot of these horse-whisperer type subtle gifts? If you don't use it you lose it What did they look like? (those ships) Chains? Vines are pretty strong. In fact spider webs are extremely strong, so don't rely on metal for evidence of domestication. And once again, man can develop a rappor with the beasts (it certainly happens with elephants and their trainers) and not really need physical restraints. I think modern day man can be a bit smug about his abilities compared with any of his predecessors. He thinks no one has done anything at the level of his society before. Some of the ancients have us beat on a number of things: some had an unparalleled level of craftsmanship that would be hard to duplicate today... Pyramid building, but I am getting too far away from mammoths on that. I am not an expert on history, so I welcome any comments on my errors...
Unbelievable assumptions That’s what archeologists are for. They’ve got a solid chain of evidence linking man with all the animals he lived with and/or ate back to the Paleolithic. The animals that were herded or farmed or kept as pets show up differently than the ones that were hunted. Much larger number of bones in the camps or villages than could have been obtained by hunting. We might have been able to occasionally capture a mammoth or two by driving them into a dead-end canyon, but the leap to husbandry is too great. Remember that mammoths became extinct thousands of years before we learned how to herd or captive-breed any other animal. I suppose that is self-evident, because if we’d developed the skill to raise the world’s largest edible animal, they wouldn’t be extinct. That was a movie. For the reality, check out Steve Irwin. He’s got about as much karma with animals as anyone alive. Elephants are extremely intelligent animals and are very loyal to their herd-mates. If they see a human muttering mumbo-jumbo to Dumbo, then Dumbo suddenly disappears, then they smell the horrifying stench of roasting mammoth coming from the campground, the next human to walk into the elephant corral is not coming out alive. I don’t understand. Every book on ancient history has pictures of them. The bottom of the Aegean Sea is littered with the hulks of Greek and Phoenician vessels. By today’s standards they’d be called boats. I doubt that the largest of them could carry a mammoth. There’s plenty of archeological evidence going back a few thousand more years. Before metallurgy, meaning no metal tools and no metal building materials, boats were tiny. The Polynesian boats such as the Maori war canoes are typical of stone age sailing craft. The people who live in the northern latitudes today go out and hunt whales in boats smaller than the one your tax accountant sails on Saturdays. As I said above, that may work if you’re trying to make the elephant your friend. If you’re trying to make the elephant your dinner, the second elephant will not fall for the trick. And if you don’t have the rest of your herd restrained with something, they’ll probably walk over to your camp and turn your entire family into ketchup. I think you’ve got the smug indicator pointing in the wrong direction. The secret to the pyramids was the despotic ability to channel an incredible amount of human labor into a project that was nothing but sheer vanity. As for craftsmanship, amateur Egyptologists are fond of pointing out that the pyramids are only a few inches out of square. That’s impressive if you just consider their technology, but then when you think of all the lives that were squandered on the effort, it’s just hubris at its worst. It’s certainly not “hard to duplicate today.” We can build larger structures than that that are square to within a thousandth of an inch, and every worker on the project can go home to a middle class life every night. I don’t think you have made any errors in your history. I just think you’re caught up in the trendy attitude of being a little ashamed of contemporary civilization. Our problem is not civilization, it's just one important aspect of civilization: politics. Every nation that has fallen prey to the lure of a gigantic central government with more power and money than God and no accountability to anybody has gotten itself into pretty much the same mess that we’re in. Mesopotamia, Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, Byzantium, Ottoman, Spain, Britain. Gee, I wonder which arrogant bully of a country will be the next to crumble? Talk about getting a little far off the subject of mammoths….
Further unbelievable assumptions Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Okay animal husbandry of the mammoths is a bit far fetched, I must admit. I was thinking creatively about how to disperse the mammoths without a Beringia bridge (hence boats,and that line of thought). There were mammoths in North America as well as Eurasia and Africa. I'm not sure about South America. Yes of course Croc. Dundee was a movie, but I think the animal intuitive link is a Maori thing. I've seen Steve Irwin taunting the crocodiles with a lawnmower to provoke activity Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! , even have an autographed book of his. Okay you've got a point about the mammoths catching on after the first mammoth roastaree. Hmm. If mammoths were as docile as you are imagining them to be (you talk as if you were there watching it all unfold, but you can't be THAT old), man could probably have used them for transportation. That would certainly take a load off the old bipeds. And maybe ancient man milked the mammoths. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That's obvious But you are assuming I have read them Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Sorry they didn't teach this in high school, I don't have cable, and I have been busy with a few other areas of science and I haven't got to this yet. Well I haven't had a cruise in Alvin to see these either. I've led a deprived life...Although I did hear Robert Ballard talking about following the trail of empties (amphoras) to track the Phoenicians' routes...(sometimes there are shows on PBS Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!) Looks like around 4 kya the last of the mammoths died out http://school.discovery.com/schooladventures/woollymammoth/migramap.html# And apparently no mammoth evidence found in S. America. Okay I guess we won't send the mammoths in the small boats. They probably wouldn't sit still, and the boat would capsize. Which brings me to the next idea. Could mammoths swim? Yes! Of course they could if they are related to elephants because Hanibal had them swimming across the river. Wait. I think he made water wings for them...But if the mammoths had a lot of blubber that would help them float... Whoa. I have a tax accountant now. And he goes sailing? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That's news to me. Wouldn't the whale thrash that little boat to pieces with his tail? Okay good point. However, you do like violent scenarios. But the elephants are going to walk, and not charge in unison (the pack 6th sense Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!), flattening everything in their paths? A gross assumption. Mere coincidence that my ideas might coincide with any trendy attitude. I don't tend to get 'caught up in' any mainstream attitudes. And as far as craftsmanship, I was not talking specifically about Egyptians. Certain techniques have probably become lost... Back to the mammoths though: http://www.geocities.com/aleph135/frozenmuck16.html Clearly some catastrophic occurrence took out a lot of animals (including mammoths) during one event that affected Alaska. Probably the same event that affected the Siberian animals.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NQ: Okay animal husbandry of the mammoths is a bit far fetched, I must admit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: Not at all, given that we've had domesticated elephants for thousands of years. The issue is just temporal logistics. I think if I said yellow you would say purple. But that makes life colorful. So shall we have the mammoths sporting palanquins now? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NQ:I was thinking creatively about how to disperse the mammoths without a Beringia bridge (hence boats,and that line of thought). There were mammoths in North America as well as Eurasia and Africa. I'm not sure about South America. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: A paradigm that has arisen to explain these phenomena is north-south vs. east-west migration. It is relatively easy for species, entire ecosystems, and human cultures to move laterally within a latitude belt. By staying in roughly the same climate zone, they don't have to adapt to new conditions. That explains why civilization spread so quickly from Asia Minor, India, and China to such huge areas. In contrast, it did not spread throughout the Americas at all. The crops that were cultivated by the Aztecs simply would not grow north of the Rio Grande. The llamas that carried the Incas' supplies on journeys of exploration could not survive the weather in Central America. Thus, there were no woolly mammoths in South America because one Mexican summer would have killed most of them. Good points about the latitude migration. But it is more likely the bottleneck of the isthmus of Panama that stoppered things up, not to mention the raging plaguey mosquitoes, than the heat, although that's reasonable. Tropical diseasles too. FR: And in other premodern cultures as well [animal intuition/Maoris]. However, one must always retain a healthy skepticism rather than assuming that our ancestors were "closer to nature" or had crafts that "we have forgotten." Many of the seemingly amazing feats performed by the shamans and viziers in the last surviving Neolithic cultures I'm forgetting that you were there ;-) FR ...turn out to be nothing more than the original versions of the stage magic tricks performed by Penn and Teller, Uri Geller, John Edwards, faith healers, water dowsers, btw I have seen this (water dowsing) demonstrated effectively by a non-pseudo-scientist. FR ....and other entertainers and/or predators. James Randi has made a career out of pulling back the curtain on a great many wizards. It doesn't help. Certain humans apparently have a need to believe in the paranormal, despite the fact that the "normal" is so utterly fascinating in itself. Beliefs give people strength...now where is my feather? ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NQ: Okay you've got a point about the mammoths catching on after the first mammoth roastaree. Hmm. If mammoths were as docile as you are imagining them to be, man could probably have used them for transportation. That would certainly take a load off the old bipeds. And maybe ancient man milked the mammoths. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: Not docile so much as smart enough to recognize a threat. purple, purple, purple I thought you said something like, they were oblivious because they were lord and masters of the steppes, and led an idyllic predator free lifestyle. Those saber tooths are like fleas to a mammoth. FR:They had absolutely nothing to fear from small predators as long as they kept their calves sheltered, so why burn precious calories to even acknowledge the presence of a wolf? What is it with this 'precious calories' DeBeers mentality? To raise a mammoth eyebrow at that insignificant (beneath contempt, even) wolf would burn 50 lbs of unsightly blubber? Well we could certainly market THAT metabolism today. I could be rich. Well, if I could be bothered to do the marketing. I'll put you in charge of that... FR: As for draft or milk stock, again, the archeological evidence would be there and it's not. Yes indeed we would find fossilized wooden milk pails, or leather milk pails There might even be a fossilized mammothbell somewhere on the planet. You are a heavily fossil-dependent creature, Fraggle Rocker Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! FR: The earliest piles of bones large enough to suggest domestication are of very small birds and mammals. Wouldn't piles of bones suggest dinners rather than pets? NQ: But you are assuming I have read [texts on ancient history]. Sorry they didn't teach this in high school, I don't have cable, and I have been busy with a few other areas of science and I haven't got to this yet. FR: The apology is all mine. You all write with the precision, logic, maturity, and general knowledge of assistant professors. It's easy to forget how young many of you are. I am baffled as to why so many older people think the world is going to hell as soon as you take over. As if it hasn't already done so under our own stewardship? It is because the older people think they have more wisdom than the younger people who have unprejudiced ideas. And older people may think that with age comes privilege. NQ: Looks like around 4 kya the last of the mammoths died out. FR: That's much later than I had learned. Still, even though civilization was in full swing in the southernmost temperate latitudes, it hadn't spread very far northward by that time. Scouts sent north by the nomadic hunter-gatherer ancestors of the Celts, Finns, and Scandinavians may have encountered mammoths and perhaps the Chinese had heard first-hand accounts of these encounters. Some brave expedition may have even brought one back so the Emperor of China could watch it die of loneliness. Much like modern day zoos. FR: I'm surprised by the assertion that they lived in Africa. They were probably the original offshoot of the Elephas genus that didn't have all the hair until they got further north and needed it. That hair is a curious thing. Well bison have fur (temperate zone). So do bears (also temperate). There would have been nothing for a mammoth to eat on an ice sheet. NQ: Could mammoths swim? Yes! Of course they could if they are related to elephants because Hanibal had them swimming across the river. Wait. I think he made water wings for them...But if the mammoths had a lot of blubber that would help them float. FR: Virtually all quadruped mammals are born swimmers. It's only us clumsy bipeds who have to TEACH our babies to swim. Who are you calling clumsy? ;-) Maybe that is an innate ability that has been lost... FR: Neanderthals didn't have the right musculature and their bones were too dense to swim at all. Perhaps other primates have that problem as well. Salty enough water would have held them up though NQ: Okay good point. [Mammoths rebelling against being raised for food.] However, you do like violent scenarios. FR: No I don't. But I do like to eat meat. Cognitive dissonance. purple, purple, purple harmonic resonance FR: I'm no expert in the nuances of elephant behavior. I just know enough to stay out of their way. Haven't been stepped on yet! Well the zoos won't let you get very close NQ: And as far as craftsmanship, I was not talking specifically about Egyptians. Certain techniques have probably become lost. FR: There's a new discipline of scholarship whose name I don't know. People laboriously recreate Neolithic technology. They've learned how to nap flint to create spearheads and firestarters, etc. Jean Auel did a lot of that in researching the "Earth's Children" books. I was thinking more along the lines of wrought iron splendor, old master oil paintings perhaps Andre: Although the mammoth in Siberia was mostly found in the northern most area we see a different pattern in America: Although the mammoth reputedly had migrated the Bering strait 1,7 Million years ago, apparantly he was not interrested in most of Canada. Why? It was way too cold, and there were no poppies to eat. Or anything else for that matter. It was too far north for his liking ;-) Andre: For the record, the last "ice age period" is thought to have started around 130.000 years ago looking at the ice cores with the coldest timeframe around 22.000-19.000 years ago. But it was still supposed to be colder everywhere on Earth during the complete time frame, interstadials or not. Supposed to be, but the tropix tell a different tale
CAN i add a bit of information on the arrival of the first humans to the americas... http://www.geocities.com/blobrana/features/american.htm They were probably a key , to the demise of the mastodon and mammoths, as well as the giant elk and so on and so on....
The probable cause was a combination of hunting and climate change. the breeding characteristics of the large animals probably targeted them especially. In africa there was probably not so much of a need to hunt such a dangerous creature, there were plenty of other sources of food...
Yellow satellite dishes NQ: I think if I said yellow you would say purple. But that makes life colorful. FR: Sorry, I'm not expressing myself well. Which is a fancy way of saying "I'm being a jerk." No, you're cool. FR: I feared that I had overwhelmed you with verbage No, bring on the words Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! [latitude migration....isthmus of Panama ...mosquitoes] FR: Indeed. The species with the most success at establishing populations on both sides of the isthmus are birds, who can just fly over the rough patches. Interesting. There is a bird that migrates back and forth between the north and south poles. Now that takes some energy. Maybe it rides a jet stream or something... NQ: Beliefs give people strength. FR: I know. My wife's got a whole library from her studies of Jung's disciples. I even had the honor of attending one of Joseph Campbell's last lectures. Curiously enough Jung considered astrology a tool. He even said he could, in a room of ~50 couples, to be able to match up husbands & wives with a 95+% accuracy. I have not been exposed to the work of Joseph Campbell. NQ: You are a heavily fossil-dependent creature. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! FR:Well that's how archeology is done. Ruins and fossils. And interpretation thereof. Are you an archaeologist? Anthropologist? Armchair (more accurate perhaps swivel-chair) sleuth? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The earliest piles of bones large enough to suggest domestication are of very small birds and mammals." Wouldn't piles of bones suggest dinners rather than pets? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One of the dark ancient secrets that we try not to think about is that to ancient Man there probably wasn't as big a difference as we'd like to think. And no, I wasn't there! There are human societies today who raise dogs for food. Our ancestors probably would not have been squeamish about eating the four-legged companions who didn't survive the last mammoth hunt. Yes but your point seemed to be that the bones were evidence of domestication and I don't think you can infer that. FR: Wisdom used to come naturally (at least to a few people) with age and it could be passed on. That process is a major casualty of the paradigm shift. paradigm = pattern, example or model FR: The lore my father so carefully passed down to me about keeping a car in tune is worthless on a solid state ignition or an electronic fuel injector. Yes that's very true. Unless he is a trendy dad and kept up with technology. However, auto mfrs. make it hard even for dealers to replace parts of a system. They have to replace the whole unit. FR: As are my mother's kitchen tips when confronting a bread maker or a computerized chocolate tempering machine. What the heck is a computerized chocolate tempering machine? I don't think I need my chocolate tampered with Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And a bread machine? Isn't your countertop getting junked up with all that stuff? If a bread machine really makes your life easier and you use it a lot, it's fine. Your mother's kitchen tips are still viable. FR: A theme we see repeated constantly on Rugrats and South Park and all the shows about kids is that today, the only resources kids have for help in figuring things out are other kids. Well movie makers are appealing to their audience: kids. Kids like to feel self-reliant and powerful, so this is a good angle. However a movie could be good also with adults sharing in the adventures (for example, Matilda) FR: The adults, no matter how sympathetic and well-meaning, are clueless. All except for The Chef, anyway. South Park is not my idea of entertainment. But a lot of kids get those messages and are subtly affected by them. FR: As for privilege, what a joke. The last thing we need is a parking space right by the door. A walk from the other side of the lot would keep us from becoming so elderly. Why limit yourself to that? I would prefer a jaunt to see a glacier Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Hiking in the Alps....Tour a chocolate factory (that would be exercise) NQ: That hair is a curious thing. Well bison have fur (temperate zone). So do bears (also temperate). FR:I saw them hauling that mammoth around in the block of permafrost on the Discovery Channel, but I can't remember noticing how thick their pelt was, or maybe they hadn't gotten through the ice yet. They are normally depicted as having more hair than a Rastafarian, but that could be just a supposition. Okay, I don't believe the ice sheet was the mammoths' natural habitat, so I want to know why they evolved the hair. Was it thick hair to insulate, or more like a bear's or a bison's. If the mammoth had lived for thousands of years on the ice sheets (how ridiculous) he would have turned white, like the polar bear, arctic foxes, ermines, wolves, ptarmigans, etc. Did mammoths deal with different seasons, like bison and bear? Bears hibernate, bison (and deer) just try to graze and cope until spring comes. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And as far as craftsmanship, I was not talking specifically about Egyptians. Certain techniques have probably become lost. I was thinking more along the lines of wrought iron splendor, old master oil paintings perhaps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: TLC shows people recreating those crafts all the time. You gotta get cable TV! Thanks, but it is not available where I live. I would have to resort to satellite. Blobrana: In africa there was probably not so much of a need to hunt such a dangerous creature, there were plenty of other sources of food... But Fraggle Rocker speculates that they were docile...however you make a good point--the smaller targets would be easier prey. Have mammoth fossils been found in Africa? Andre: If that were to be right, who killed the same animals in Siberia and Europe at the same time? Did we see a human population explosion that was capable of killing most of the big beasts in the Northern Hemisphere? And why not in Africa and SE Asia? Okay you are referring to the mass graves of mammoths in Siberia, Alaska, etc. These have not been found in Africa and SE Asia. There is a reason for that. Who can tell me?
My concern is not inaccurate astrology, but rather the fact that it completely begs the question whether astrology’s woo-woo component has any validity at all. Honorable counselors use the title and trappings of an astrologer to attract clients in need of advice and make them comfortable. There are, after all, people who don’t trust therapists but who will tell their darkest secrets to an unlicensed practitioner of woo-woo. That was HIS whole point. The Hundred Years War, the French Revolution, WWI and WWII indeed killed more people in absolute body count. However, as an iconoclast when it comes to statistics, MY whole point is that these statistics from eras of widely different population densities scream for normalization. The difference in the percentage of the population of the countries involved who died may not have been so dramatic. In fact I’d not have a hard time believing stats showing that the Mongols or the early Jihads actually took proportionately more casualties. To say that Jung juggled his statistics to make his point merely makes my own! Nonetheless I’m grateful for his supplantation of Freud’s model of the human spirit, which was barely less austere and disempowering than those of patriarchal monotheism. Primary research is real science. Secondary research is studying the scientist’s papers. I suggest that tertiary research is studying the digests and somewhat popularized reports prepared by the secondary researchers, and we all do a lot of that. I earn my living as an I.T. specialist. My wife and I breed dogs and parrots, which requires enough expertise to earn the title of at least amateur biologists/geneticists/animal behaviorists. I attended a science-intensive university, in the 1960s when the scientific method was still held in high esteem, so I got a good start. Yes, I have done lots of writing and a modest amount has been published. But I'm not comfortable touting it here, while hiding behind the anonymity of my Muppet screen name for reasons that I won't go into. Seems dishonorable. OK, your reasoning is persuasive. But I’ll only meet you halfway. I don’t see why it could not be evidence of either mode of collection. Let’s hope not. One main theme/warning in Toffler’s book, "The Third Wave," is that paradigm shifts occuring quickly and in rapid succession cause great misery, anxiety and inequity. It's not far-fetched to imagine a world with an exponentially increasing amount and complexity of technology, with an ever shrinking percentile of the population who can barely understand it. Indeed it is. You should have seen the Food Channel’s specials during St. Valentine’s Week. You really need a satellite dish. Good for you. Our language is one of the strengths of our civilization. It’s difficult to think about something that you can’t express in words. I call English and Chinese the world’s two greatest languages because their word-building power is so awesome that it is a resource in its own right. Just try rendering "three-speed solid-state food processor" into Spanish or Russian. Not too far from the truth, at least in our house. As I have said on other threads, the state of the art in weight-loss diets is woo-woo to rival astrology. The disclaimers at the bottom of their ads plainly admit it! You grind the beans into the carafe, then add nearly boiling water. After the desired brewing time you push down on a wire mesh, which presses the grounds to the bottom and holds them there while extracting the liquid. Then you pour it into your cup and the grounds are still trapped in the bottom of the carafe even as it's tipped. It’s really just a way to brew coffee like tea. Full name is a “French press,” making it sound tres chic. The oven is in the kitchen and the cook is in the TV room helping sustain the audience for General Hospital so it doesn’t get cancelled. The cook has a radio receiver that displays the meat temperature and beeps when it hits the desired value. We’re pretty reclusive. The Quartermaines and Spencers are our "virtual family." We find that being able to care about somebody for fifteen years--longer than the average marriage or friendship--has a positive effect on our emotional health. Nobody said there were limits on the different ways drama (or melodrama) can enrich our lives. No, I had a lifetime of adventures when I was young, strong, and foolish enough to do so. Now I much prefer sitting under a pile of puppies and watching somebody else take the risks on “24" and "Alias."
Parrots and dogs and Quatermaines, oh my -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fraggle Rocker: My concern is not inaccurate astrology, but rather the fact that it completely begs the question whether astrology’s woo-woo component has any validity at all. Honorable counselors use the title and trappings of an astrologer to attract clients in need of advice and make them comfortable. There are, after all, people who don’t trust therapists but who will tell their darkest secrets to an unlicensed practitioner of woo-woo. You are right. A lot of people don't trust shrinks and therapists. I can see that this would work. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Jung flippantly dismisses the mythology of one third of the Earth's population, saying, "No wars in history have been as bloody as the ones among the Christian nations." ... That would leave out Genghis Khan, the Romans & Greex, Japan's past aggressions on China, etc. etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: That was HIS whole point. The Hundred Years War, the French Revolution, WWI and WWII indeed killed more people in absolute body count. However, as an iconoclast when it comes to statistics, MY whole point is that these statistics from eras of widely different population densities scream for normalization. The difference in the percentage of the population of the countries involved who died may not have been so dramatic. In fact I’d not have a hard time believing stats showing that the Mongols or the early Jihads actually took proportionately more casualties. To say that Jung juggled his statistics to make his point merely makes my own! Nonetheless I’m grateful for his supplantation of Freud’s model of the human spirit, which was barely less austere and disempowering than those of patriarchal monotheism. Getting pretty technical here. Patriarchal - father as the power figure in family/society. monotheism - belief in one god. Disempowering of whom? Would you prefer a matriarchal society? And polytheism? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The term 'tertiary research' is worth coining and many of us on this forum practice it.” ... Tertiary- of the third rank, order or formation, etc.; third. Do you mean third in priority? Perhaps you are a journalist or writer. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: Primary research is real science. Secondary research is studying the scientist’s papers. This would be i.e. reading journal articles from Science magazine? FR: I suggest that tertiary research is studying the digests and somewhat popularized reports prepared by the secondary researchers, and we all do a lot of that. I think I prefer the undiluted stuff. FR: I earn my living as an I.T. specialist. My wife and I breed dogs and parrots, which requires enough expertise to earn the title of at least amateur biologists/geneticists/animal behaviorists. I attended a science-intensive university, in the 1960s when the scientific method was still held in high esteem, so I got a good start. Parrots!! Grey, green, or purple? I'm sure that requires a high degree of skill. I will guess shar-peis on the breed of dogs. FR: Yes, I have done lots of writing and a modest amount has been published. But I'm not comfortable touting it here, while hiding behind the anonymity of my Muppet screen name for reasons that I won't go into. Seems dishonorable. Anonymity is perfectly reasonable. Feel free to be a Fraggle Rocker Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NQ: We have been talking opinions. Time for backup. I disagree. A lot of bones can mean a mammoth kill or a bison kill, not a herd of pets. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: OK, your reasoning is persuasive. But I’ll only meet you halfway. I don’t see why it could not be evidence of either mode of collection. Actually if you think about it , a pet burial area would be evidenced by intact skeletons. Evidence of carnivorous behavior would be shown by separate bones. But of course, floods, scavengers etc. could disturb whole skeletons and skew interpretation. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NQ:... But the chocolates are not fattening at all? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: Not too far from the truth, at least in our house. As I have said on other threads, the state of the art in weight-loss diets is woo-woo to rival astrology. The disclaimers at the bottom of their ads plainly admit it! I recommend increasing exercise and reducing junk food intake, drink more water, eliminate soft drinks...simpler is better quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, what is a coffee press? I thought they had grinders for coffee. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: You grind the beans into the carafe, then add nearly boiling water. After the desired brewing time you push down on a wire mesh, which presses the grounds to the bottom and holds them there while extracting the liquid. Then you pour it into your cup and the grounds are still trapped in the bottom of the carafe even as it's tipped. It’s really just a way to brew coffee like tea. Full name is a “French press,” making it sound tres chic. I see. Thanks for the explanation. Sounds a bit labor intensive, but it's whatever you get used to. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And that remote receiver on the meat thermometer? Picking up signals from aliens or what? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: The oven is in the kitchen and the cook is in the TV room helping sustain the audience for General Hospital so it doesn’t get cancelled. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! FR: The cook has a radio receiver that displays the meat temperature and beeps when it hits the desired value. What clever toys you have. One should indulge themselves with the toys of their passion (cooking toys in your case). quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “When you get older you're supposed to watch soap operas from a treadmill.” ... Thanks. I'll skip the soap operas at any age though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: We’re pretty reclusive. The Quartermaines and Spencers are our "virtual family." We find that being able to care about somebody for fifteen years--longer than the average marriage or friendship--has a positive effect on our emotional health. Nobody said there were limits on the different ways drama (or melodrama) can enrich our lives. I understand your viewpoint. I find real people more intriguing though. Have you ever considered taking your parrots for a jaunt into a public school classroom and sharing that passion with the kids there? And I see plenty of melodrama in real life. Teenagers are melodrama generators. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “When I was younger I rode a motorcycle through a herd of bison and it was an incredible experience. As you get older you become too intelligent to do stuff like that.” ... Next you'll be chasing bulls in Pamplona on your motorbike. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FR: No, I had a lifetime of adventures when I was young, strong, and foolish enough to do so. Now I much prefer sitting under a pile of puppies and watching somebody else take the risks on “24" and "Alias." Well I am a few adventures short of a lifetime. My middle child is riveted to the tv set when Alias comes on. Okay you are a retired spy Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Now, going back to André's post of 2/25/03, I see there is no evidence of mammoths in MeXico. Is this because there is not a lot of archaeological study there? Jungles too thick for mammoths at that time period, predators were too ferocious, or they couldn't cross the Rio Grande? Or simply too hot as FR conjectures?
”Patriarchal” as in the religions that worship the god of Abraham. God is male. Priests are male. Oddly enough males seem to get affirmative action when claiming positions as head of family, nation, business, military, and everything else. No I’m not dumb enough to believe that the solution to an injustice is simply to turn it upside down, but couldn’t this poor planet use just a little BALANCE right about now? Disempowering whom? Well let’s start with all the women who don’t count for crap in any of those religions! Just African Greys any more. We’ve bred several species of macaws, but never Hyacinths (the giant purple ones). And stamina. In order to imprint the babies you have to take over feeding once their eyes open. That takes place every couple of hours around the clock for about three weeks. I love "Get Fuzzy" too. But our dogs are Lhasa Apsos. You bet. They’re still discovering Maya ruins that only show up on infra-red satellite photos. The rain forest will hide anything. Despite my conjecture that they could easily migrate many hundreds of miles, I have to admit that I can’t find any other herbivorous mammals who do it. Carnivores, now they seem willing to adapt to new climate and terrain.
update i found a recent article that sheds light on a few problems...(or not) http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s798441.htm
Re: update Well that was just as clear as mud! They don't even agree on the date of arrival of the first humans in Australia. I've seen it presented as 40,000 years ago just about forever, and now these guys say it could have been 15-25 thousand years earlier. Something is very wrong with science, at least in the way it is summarized for laymen.
Self-correction. Where's that PF key, I gotta push it quick! And, since many people predict that we will soon see great strides in the social sciences... them too!
Yes I like things to be fair and balanced. For some reason, males tend to have the edge in military, corporate and religious realms. Oprah is an exception. Nice to see that. Thanx for the news about your exotic pets. Those Llasa Apsos are probably like a lap full of muppets, baby Fraggle Rockers as it were... Aren't they Tibetan in origin? No mammoths there as far as I know... I can think of cowboys herding cattle across hundreds of miles and cows are herbivores. I've never seen one at McDonald's, anyway. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Andre: Are you telling me that Fraggle Rocker has betas in his menagerie too? Something is fishy here Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! :m: :m: :m: =^.. ^= :m: :m: :m: a tiger in the cinquefoil patch Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! it is telling me I have too many images in my post..I guess I'll have to prune the cinquefoil and try again
"Tiger, tiger burning bright, in the forest of the night" :m: :m: :m: =^--^=:m: :m: :m: Now he is sleeping. Do you really think that carnivores cover that much territory? Carnivores and herbivores are going to go where the food supply is. If there is ample food, they will probably not travel. And they need water. Is a herd of mammoths (if they traveled in herds) going to aimlessly wander grasslands or did they have territorial behavior or memory imprinted regions that they preferred? Eidetic memory I think it is called.
Mini- and Megafauna The military I can understand. That unfortunate part of life has just got to be rooted in testosterone. But in all the other realms there’s no strong biological reason for women not to have a share in the leadership. Not necessarily an exactly equal share, but far more than the tokenism we’re seeing. Or even worse, the sad phenomenon of women succeeding by following the precise strategy of displaying more stereotypical male behavior than the men themselves. Yes, and she got there by being a hundred percent female. But the fact that she is such a newsworthy exception illustrates my point. There have been male billionaires for what, 40-45 years now, since Howard Hughes? Bill Gates is about halfway to being a trillionaire. And finally the “brotherhood” of billionaires inducts its first female member. Yes, developed to guard the Buddhist monasteries. (Lhasa is Tibet's capital city.) You should see one scampering practically straight up a snowy hillside, as if rousting a Himalayan burglar. They have exceptionally good hearing. And a very high incidence of the alpha gene, so they tend to spread out on patrol rather than staying in a pack. Megafauna don’t seem to go for the high elevations. That’s only since they’ve been domesticated, not a natural behavior. (The cows. I don't know whether cowboys have been domesticated yet.) In the wild when they follow the lead cow they don’t roam so far. By the way, I just learned that I was wrong about calling elephants “domesticated.” Part of the definition is “supervised breeding” and I guess nobody has quite figured out how to do that yet. Even Cartman failed. Only from a statistical perspective, you won’t notice it in one generation. But over time they do. Just look at the range of wolves, tigers, cougars, lions. They span the ranges of multiple prey species. Wolves alone completely circle the Northern Hemisphere. No herbivore comes close. Only the reindeer/caribou, which is arguably two species, constrained to arctic latitudes, and possibly spread by domestication.
Yax et al Oprah is an exception. Nice to see that. Yes, and she got there by being a hundred percent female. But the fact that she is such a newsworthy exception illustrates my point. There have been male billionaires for what, 40-45 years now, since Howard Hughes? Bill Gates is about halfway to being a trillionaire. And finally the “brotherhood” of billionaires inducts its first female member. Well Queen Elizabeth is pretty darned wealthy. No mammoths there as far as I know. Megafauna don’t seem to go for the high elevations. Well I am having a yak attak. Yax are large and go up into the mountains of Tibet... I can think of cowboys herding cattle across hundreds of miles and cows are herbivores. That’s only since they’ve been domesticated, not a natural behavior. (The cows. I don't know whether cowboys have been domesticated yet.) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I doubt it In the wild when they follow the lead cow they don’t roam so far. Well i'll just have to study herbivores to become a bit more knowledgeable about them. Don't know too much on this topic By the way, I just learned that I was wrong about calling elephants “domesticated.” Part of the definition is “supervised breeding” and I guess nobody has quite figured out how to do that yet. Even Cartman failed. Should I know Cartman? You are being a namedropper to no avail since I am ignorant Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Do you really think that carnivores cover that much territory? Only from a statistical perspective, you won’t notice it in one generation. But over time they do. Just look at the range of wolves, tigers, cougars, lions. They span the ranges of multiple prey species. Wolves alone completely circle the Northern Hemisphere. No herbivore comes close. Only the reindeer/caribou, which is arguably two species, constrained to arctic latitudes, and possibly spread by domestication. Well polar bears are carnivorous. I think they range pretty far too, even riding around on ice floes to find dinner (seals). Any idea why polar bears have white fur? Supposedly they evolved from brown bears. Of course it was the mammoths that provoked that thought. If mammoths made their home in a snowy environment on a regular basis they would probably develop white fur/hair also. But those encased in permafrost in Siberia have brown fur. Many arctic animals are white, or change colors with the seasons (a totally amazing feat I must say) Well I must run and forage for mushroom, parsley and butter. Onward with the mammoth quest, although we will digress all we like along the way! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Anyone who wants to challenge that will have parrots, llasa apsos and belligerent bettas to deal with! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
