The last defenders of Masada

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by S.A.M., Jun 10, 2010.

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  1. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    No. I am curious. Jewish scholars doubt the original bones found were Jewish because of the pig bones found among them and also because of the number of skeletons that were found. It is widely accepted in archaeological circles that the original bones were most assuredly not Jewish. Hence the reburial of bones found on another site on the mountain. They were zealots. Extreme zealots (today we'd call them radical)..

    So you are going against the beliefs and findings of not only the person who found the site and excavated the bones(who doubted whether they were of the zealots of Masada because of the pig bones), but others who have examined this in detail, all Jewish scholars, with 'well they had to eat'?

    My, how scientific of you.

    And this..

    Your study is interesting. Shall we look at the rest of it now? Lets test our luck, shall we?

    Tasty..

    When posted in full.

    But yes, interesting study you have there. Tell me, does it contain a lot of incomplete reports and studies so that it only shows what you want to believe?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
    Bells, Jun 12, 2010
    #21

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  3. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Let us examine how this study is being criticized here. There is a peer-reviewed scientific paper, and S.A.M.s response was we should not believe it because - "Besides, its from Israel", and then says "Israel" lied about an entirely different event studied by entirely different people which has more to do with archeology than genetics. This is a grave logical fallacy, and she always does this - changes the subject to one she feels more comfortable refuting.

    I request the mods split off the Masada subject into a new thread.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
    spidergoat, Jun 12, 2010
    #22

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  5. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    I am guessing that the results will be studied. It is not unlikely that there is a genetic connection amongst Jews. Lets face it, in the past, they have tended to not marry outside the circle to a great extent, for lack of a better term.

    I think that such studies can lead to racism, for example, where tests and standards or levels of 'Jewishness', which are already in place against African Jews, as another example, upon their apparent right of return to Israel. A double standard. There is also the issue that such tests, and its results, has the inherent risk of an 'us against them' scenario.. Which we are also seeing with the treatment of Palestinians, for example and the different tests that apply to African Jews.

    There are dangers with such studies being used for political reasons or to adopt certain political agendas that can harm other groups that fall outside of the religion itself. I am not going to say that it is a lie. I don't think the results of the tests are false. But there can be dangers with such studies and we've already seen some of them already.
     
    Bells, Jun 12, 2010
    #23

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  7. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    It is meant to counter accusations coming from the opposition that the Jews which live in Israel don't have any relation to the ancient ones. The truth should be known, and it in fact supports everything the Jews have been saying all along.

    There is no double standard, it's just that if you happen to be outside of traditional Judaism, there might be some rituals to go through.

    Is Saudi Arabia obligated to let anyone from the Nation of Islam into the country for pilgrimage?
    Mainstream Muslims consider the group to be a non-Islamic independent religion that has adopted Islamic terminology rather than an Islamic sect due to differing beliefs about God, race, and prophecy, among others.{wiki}​
     So, if a Nation of Islam person wanted to be considered a true Muslim, there would be some rituals involved, and probably some alteration of doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
    spidergoat, Jun 12, 2010
    #24
  8. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    How do they distinguish between Jews who are racially Jews [i.e. from the seed of the mythical Abraham] and Jews who converted 3000, 2000, 1000, 500, 400, 300, 200, 100, 50, 40, 30, 20 or 10 years ago?

    How do they identify Jews for these studies?

    How do they know its a "real Jew"?
     
    S.A.M., Jun 12, 2010
    #25
  9. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Do they have to? You could take a sample set from self-defining Jews and see if they are related to people from the Middle East. Even converts tended to mix with existing Jewish population and so their descendants become related. The only populations that seem to be totally converts are some African ones.
     
    spidergoat, Jun 12, 2010
    #26
  10. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So what do these tribal studies tell you? Whether Jews are related to each other or to the Middle East or what?

    How far back are you Jewish? 500 years? 5000 years? How would you know? How do you self define your Jewishness beyond your mother? On what other basis do you qualify? Your genes? Her genes? Her grandmothers genes? Or do you believe that you descended from Abraham of Ur?

    Do you feel more Yemeni/Iraqi/Spanish/German/Polish/Russian/American?

    What do these genetic studies even mean?

    The problem with numbers is that they don't cover irrationality. Its why people play the lottery. Unless Jews are claiming that they have had no conversions since Abu Ibrahim and have maintained racial purity for 5000+ years by inbreeding, these studies are completely meaningless. Unfortunately, it seems even rational people quit thinking when it comes to tribal myths. Frankly if they were such inbred racists I'm not sure why they'd want to advertise it. But rational thinking makes it clear that such diligence to inbreeding is quite against human nature.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
    S.A.M., Jun 12, 2010
    #27
  11. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    You are reading all kinds of bullshit into it that are not present in the original study. It's like reconstructing a family tree. Jewishness is an ethno/religious group, it's not genetic. But, the genetics confirm the general outline of a diaspora from an early Middle Eastern population.
     
    spidergoat, Jun 12, 2010
    #28
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