The Impossible impossible

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Xerxes, Jul 7, 2002.

  1. Alpha Ā«VisitorĀ» Registered Senior Member

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    1,179
    You're right, it won't be equal to what it was. (It's always equal to itself. For it not ot be would be impossible.) But the reason it wont be equal to what it was it because it's no longer a sphere. A sphere can't be rotated in any manner that makes it look like it's no longer a sphere (you know what I mean). The way a sphere is defined makes it impossible.
    No it doesn't. It applies to anything. Matter, space, logic itself, anything.
    What?! The object is changing itself to fit the space around it? What do you mean?
    OK, if you're changing the space around it, and not the sphere itself, then the sphere hasn't changed so it's still the same. So it still rotates and appears to be a sphere... am I missing something?
    Now that's a logical impossiblity. That's a paradox, and is by definition, impossible. The day when 1 = something other than one is the day I shoot myself in the head!
    Huh? You're right, it is contradictory, which is why it's impossible! You're not making sense! You're saying it's possible, then impossible! And how the heck do you figure it would make a singularity? Never mind.
    Bingo! You can't! Which is exactly why some things in this universe are impossible, because some things are constants!
    Good. I welcome criticism as well. Constructive criticism is good.
    Noting impossibilities?

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    I guess it's 'cause I wasn't around!

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  3. overdoze human Registered Senior Member

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    The possible impossible

    Hi Elbaz,

    I've got some more requests for you.

    <ol>
    <li>Create something out of nothing (and I mean, absolutely nothing)</li>
    <li>Grow a third hand by wishing for it reeeal hard</li>
    <li>Determine the last digit of PI</li>
    <li>Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps</li>
    <li>Swallow yourself</li>
    </ol>

    By the way, I understand from your posts you've been dabbling in general relativity (GR.) According to that theory matter and spacetime affect each other in a feedback so you can hardly separate the two. They are really two facets of a single phenomenon, a.k.a. "the universe".

    Being products of, defined and existing within, and confined to this universe, we could never do any of the things forbidden by the underlying laws of our universe. Pick your favorite law, construct a task to break that law, and you've got yourself an impossible task. Similar for impossible objects. This is not to say that the laws we have right now are the actual laws of the universe, though at least some of them might be reasonable approximations. Regardless, there's got to eventually be a fundamental set of laws, and you can define your impossibilities in regard to those (even if hypothetical.) Point is, impossibilities do exist, and so in an absolute (universal) sense.
     
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  5. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry for the late response.....


    Alpha,

    I'm trying to say that in it's own right, it's still a sphere consisting of the same matter but to the observer, it isn't.

    Nope, it says that anything can be done. Doing stuff requires matter/energy, therefore, that's what it's confined too.

    My bad.......the observer is seeing the object differently. The sphere doesn't have to change.

    Making something infinite - a singularity. Turning an object into it's opposite per-se. Something along those lines. I ain't no physicist, so I don't really know the details, but from what I take it, you have to ask a logical question/request for a logical answer/outcome/whatever.

    The problem was contradictive in the first place though. Doesn't that mean that the answer can be as well??


    Overdoze,

    The theory clearly states that matter/energy is required to perform the requested task since doing something requires matter/energy.

    Science is showing that the brain plays a huge role. Stigmata? maybe wish related. Ever heard of how sometimes placebo's perform just as well as the real medicines? It's a very slim possibility, but it's still possible. I'm not saying that it will happen easily to any jo blow that wishes, but it's still *possible* right?

    circumference
    ----------------- = pi
    diameter

    The last digit of pi is charectarized by the above equation. Is it not? Since pi is infinite, and the universe is finite, it doesn't matter what the last digit is, as long as we know how exactly to find it.

    Possible. Make the force of acting gravity equal to less than the force of your mass on the hands pulling yourself by your bootstraps.

    Are you asking me to destroy energy? You can destroy matter, but not energy, and like I said earlier, the impossbile impossible requires matter/enery and that means from start to finish. I guess you could completely convert youself into energy if that's what your asking, but why would you want to? And why using that method. Just makes it more difficult, not impossible.........

    Like surpass the speed of light. From what I remember, the speed of light has appeared to do that in labs, and that was at one time considered impossible, although there are a few explanations as to how.

    Just did, look above.




    Anyways, I just have to tell you guys how much I appreciate the criticism. If there's anything I hate, an idea going unchallenged pissses me the most.
     
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  7. Captain_Crunch Club Ninja Valued Senior Member

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    so are you saying it is possible for me to stand on the inside of the sun?
     
  8. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    It's "possible" but not very likely. Standing in the middle of the sun is very unlikely, but not "impossible".
     
  9. Captain_Crunch Club Ninja Valued Senior Member

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    its impossible, me, being made of flesh would be burned to nothing when i get to 100m of the sun, never mind when i actually hit the surface. its impossible, admit it.

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  10. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    What if you were to somehow teleport yourself to the middle of the sun, (teleportation is possible as most theoretical physicists like to point out), and then somehow were able to resist being burn for a small period of time, by maybe applying a coating of a special cream -- point is, you can make it possible.


    BTW, you wouldn't burn, you'd melt

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    ......[cough] communist [/cough]
     
  11. Captain_Crunch Club Ninja Valued Senior Member

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    2,186
    no, no special coatings, it is'nt possible for me to stand on the inside of the sun.
    your point being?

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  12. fabled_dreamer Registered Member

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    14
    your saying nothing is impossible right? so its impossible that something in this universe is impossible.

    Its like in a RE lession the teacher asked us to find one thing in the universe which is constant, that never changes. Ii don't really know much about physics, maths etc im only 16 but if there was nothing that changed then you could say that the thing that doesnt change is the theory that everything changes.
     
  13. machaon Registered Senior Member

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    733
    impossible impossible

    Now would it not be silly to assume that the universe has ever contained a thing or event that was impossible?
     
  14. the myste Registered Member

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    4
    Response to the Impossible Impossible

    I see that all of you have your logic turned on. Try turning it off once, like we do when we sleep and dream. I think that you may find many possible answers within the dreaming phenomenon. The existence of anything is only true if we have imagined it. If it has not been thought of, then it does not exist. If we believe that there has to be rules, laws, and limitations, then, that there will be. The world that we live in today was nothing more than someones fantasy at one point and time. These are the same things that we take for granted today as so common that we don't see the ways that these things break all the laws of nature and the natural world, as well as the synthetic man-made fake world that we survive in. Notice what you're doing right now! How detailed can you explain the computer, the internet, and all the 0's and 1's that makes all this possible? You could never explain it to me in smallest detail that I would inquire about. Why? Because no one knows the answers to my questions, not even the creators of all these wonderful and complicated accessories. They just happened to stumble upon a phenomenon that has been around forever and learned how to harness it... such as x-rays, radio waves, chemical reactions, even things like the 6th sense, instinct, and many more. Then they created a need for it... but when asked how or what, their answers will never explain the very original basis of the creation. Not that they won't give you an explanation, because they will. Just don't be fooled into believing their explanations that are nothing more than a good guess. They will try to be very convincing and try to persuade you into believing that they know what they're talking about when they really don't. If you want to believe that there is nothing that is impossible, then there is nothing that is impossible. If you believe that there are impossibilities, then you will exist with limitations. Our existence is nothing more than a thought and somewhere in all of this, lies your answer.
     
  15. Canute Registered Senior Member

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    1,923
    Re: Response to the Impossible Impossible

    Nice answer. It is for this reason that no physical event can be proved to be impossible unless it is also conceptually illogical. Science (if it is assumed to be purely physicalist) can provide no such proofs, but philosophy/logic is full of them. For instance (a recent discussion) even God cannot make a stone that cannot be lifted and then proceed to lift it. Nothing we know about God or stones makes this true, it is just that logic ensures it.

    As Myste suggests logic exists in our heads as part of our concept of reality. It is not possible for science to prove that there are not places in existence where our normal ideas of logic do not hold. For all we know (and it seems increasingly likely on the scientific evidence) every possible Universe and every possible event exists. The question is therefore what 'possible' might mean in this infinite case. The answer is that 'possible' is a subjective term - we define it for ourselves. Thus, as myste implies, more things are possible for a person with imagination than for a person without any.

    Of course it's possible that I'm wrong.
     
  16. dsdsds Valued Senior Member

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    1,678
    If there is an infinity (which means no end to the universe and time), then all things are possible. In fact, in an infinity all things are a certainty. Everything has happened and will happen again. If time is infinite, one day in the future all the particles and atoms that make you will re-join and you will exist again.
     
  17. Canute Registered Senior Member

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    1,923
    dsdsds - "If there is an infinity (which means no end to the universe and time), then all things are possible. In fact, in an infinity all things are a certainty. Everything has happened and will happen again. If time is infinite, one day in the future all the particles and atoms that make you will re-join and you will exist again."

    Not necessarily. By my view (and I thin that of myste) only events which are consciously considered possible can occur. Thus logical contradictions do not, and elephants appearing out of thin air are most unlikely. All possible universes would exist and be infinite in number, but impossible universes do not. This is a consequaence of assuming that all universes are ultimately illusions created by consciousness.
     
  18. the myste Registered Member

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    4
    dsdsds - "If there is an infinity (which means no end to the universe and time), then all things are possible. In fact, in an infinity all things are a certainty. Everything has happened and will happen again. If time is infinite, one day in the future all the particles and atoms that make you will re-join and you will exist again."

    Not necessarily. By my view (and I thin that of myste) only events which are consciously considered possible can occur. Thus logical contradictions do not, and elephants appearing out of thin air are most unlikely. All possible universes would exist and be infinite in number, but impossible universes do not. This is a consequaence of assuming that all universes are ultimately illusions created by consciousness

    I agree that there is an infinity and that all things are possible, but I am curious, why do you mix an 'all things are possible' with, "one day in the future all the particles and atoms that make you will re-join and you will exist again." The latter 'turns on' the Logic and thus also the restrictions, limitations and gives a distinct conclusion, all of which are contradictive to all things are possible.
    Elephants appearing out of thin air is more of a possibility than you realize right now. Just as computers, aircrafts, telecommunications, cloning, etc., were an impossibility 50 to 100 years ago. The only thing that does not actually exsist, that we have created, are impossibilities. God lifts the unliftable rock everytime he lifts the world or the universe. As for the falling tree in the forest making any sound,... does it even exsist when there is there is no one to see that it is there. Perhaps it is not there. For example, I am myself. I am part of my world which extends only as far as I can see, hear, or touch. What is my assurance that anything beyond those extensions continues to exsist at all. You may want to say that by talking on the phone or watching live TV, or insant messaging someone from across the world, that I am being reasurred that life continues on without my presence. Well, my argument is that these things are within my presence... the phone, TV, computer, etc. Then you may come back with... but when you are in the presence of, say my brother, and he is very aware of the conversation that we had on the phone earlier, that that should confirm that he was in exsistance. Then I would come back with... But in what time warp? Meaning, did that conversation happen just as it happened for me, or did it suddenly come into exsistance for him when he was in my presence? This is a theory that is very difficult for me to portray to you, so if no one understands what I mean, just, you know, ignore it. But the sum of what I am trying to say is,... All things are possible, you just have to turn off the logic to even come close to finding the possibilities. That is why I had related all this to dreaming earlier. All things happen in a dream. All logic is turned off in a dream. There is a reason for dreaming and I don't think anyone realizes its real purpose. This exsistance is becoming more and more like a dream.
    Thank You for listening to my babbles. And I hope I am not offending anyone or being to bold.
     
  19. Canute Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,923
    Quite right. That was sloppy. As you say. it will happen only if it is possible.

    Do you feel that these are comparable cases?

    Agreed.

    That doesn't sound logical.

    It is true that 'idealism', the philosophical argument that we imagine the whole thing, has not yet been falsified.

    Actually not even that far. You can sense nothing beyond the physical boundaries of your body, your eardrum, your retina etc. Even then the messages from the outside are no more than electrochemical impules. Only later do YOU get to see and hear them, wherever you are. The question of what is 'you' and what is the physical world is tricky.

    Thank you for babbling.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2003
  20. the myste Registered Member

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    Elephants appearing out of thin air is more of a possibility than you realize right now. Just as computers, aircrafts, telecommunications, cloning, etc., were an impossibility 50 to 100 years ago. [/B]
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    Do you feel that these are comparable cases?


    I most definately feel these are comparable cases. In a more detailed explanation of my observations here is... throughout history, man's imagination has been logical. Like stories told to generations of large sea monsters, hairy ape-like men, dragons, unicorns, awsome feats done by someone,... these are all based on some kind of real experience they had or thought they had. It has only been approximately 100 years ago that man's mind could make up a story that didn't come from experience. So he suddenly went from only thinking logically to turning off the logic. With the logic turned off, our minds allowed us to think of impossible things. But, the impossible intrigued us so much, that we just had to make it possible... thus, we have all the things mentioned above. The elephants appearing out of thin air,... well, have you heard about how they can split a laser in two and what effects that has? Teleportation. I am sure you are aware of the Philidelphia Experiment as well.


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    God lifts the unliftable rock everytime he lifts the world or the universe. [/B]
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    That doesn't sound logical.


    It is simple, ie. if you have a bad tire on your car, but you can't get it off, you just get rid of the whole car. It is not a smart thing to do but you have gotten rid of the bad tire.
    If exsistance was based on everything having to be logical, then everything would be off balance. We are only capable of knowing and understanding the things that are logical. Everything else is illogical and we are not to know these things. But we are trying to change that and doing too good of a job at it. Has anyone else ever wondered why technology suddenly boomed so much in such a short time. Why didn't it come gradually and take centuries to get to where we are. It is not because of supply and demand... we didn't suddenly feel the need for phones, computers, cars, cloneing etc. We would have imagined these things milleniums ago, especially when the pyramids were being built. Matter of fact, there were people that thought of these things, DeVinci being one of them. I believe they had an awsome ability to turn off logic.


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    As for the falling tree in the forest making any sound,... does it even exsist when there is there is no one to see that it is there. Perhaps it is not there. [/B]
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    It is true that 'idealism', the philosophical argument that we imagine the whole thing, has not yet been falsified.


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    For example, I am myself. I am part of my world which extends only as far as I can see, hear, or touch.[/B]
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    Actually not even that far. You can sense nothing beyond the physical boundaries of your body, your eardrum, your retina etc. Even then the messages from the outside are no more than electrochemical impules. Only later do YOU get to see and hear them, wherever you are. The question of what is 'you' and what is the physical world is tricky.

    Tricky!?,... More like frightening. I was on my way home tonight and I looked at the sky, which would have shown a sunset had it not been interupted with a layer of clouds. A strange feeling and then thought came over me. The sky closed in on me. It truely felt like the sky was falling. Then the realization that the North, South, East, and West became shapeless walls that followed the comand of the sky. The common saying ' It's a small world' became very real. This world suddenly shrunk from its enormous size down to less than a mile in all directions. I was slightly frightened, but I wasn't surprised for two reasons. 1). It has been my experience that when someone thinks of something, no matter what it is, nor how outlandish it is, it becomes a reality. (refering back to the farfetched phones, computers, cloneing, cars, etc.) 2). I would be the one, this time, to think of that outlandish thing... which is a lot deeper than I let on earlier. I suspect that this exsistance is similar to that in the movie The Matrix. The exceptions are: A). Once I start to realize that my life is not really life at all, but only a thought, then the exsistance will start to deteriorate with every realization. For example, once I actually know, not just think, but know that none of this is for real, then first I would guess that my World will shrink. Then I will realize that all the people that I know don't really exsist, then there will be no houses and things like that. Once this starts, I won't know when or where to end. So I will continue and I will know that the Earth is not real if the sky is not real, and of course I will not need any weather nor atmosphere, since I don't really exsist and I don't need to breath because I have no body. But I won't die. I can't because I had no life. But I will have an awakening and be ready for the next one because by then that's the only thing that I will know... the only thing I have ever done is been awakened. But I would not wake up with any kind of a body, only concienceness.


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    Thank You for listening to my babbles. [/B]
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    Thank you for babbling.

    Are you sure you don't mind my babblings? Let me know when you want me to shut up. I don't want to turn anyone away.


    suddenly suddenly
     
  21. Canute Registered Senior Member

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    It's Ok but your very personal slant on things makes them difficult to discuss objectively.
     
  22. the myste Registered Member

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    Ya, I guess you'r right. I found this site by typing in a question in the search engine. I have some very complicated questions about exsistance and I was thrilled to see that there are other people asking similar, if not the same, questions. I knew no one would have the answers, but I had to try. I will try to keep my personal twist to myself and try to keep on a more objective track. I hope no one minds if I stick around. This stuff is too good to leave.

    Sorry, and Thank You all!
     
  23. hoshikage Registered Member

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    "For instance (a recent discussion) even God cannot make a stone that cannot be lifted and then proceed to lift it. Nothing we know about God or stones makes this true, it is just that logic ensures it"

    If God is in fact all encompassing (infinite in size) and was able to convert himself entirely into this stone then he wouldn't be able to lift himself.
     

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