The historical origins of the Christian notion of the Trinity

Discussion in 'Religion' started by billvon, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    Did you miss the point I was making about the futility of expounding treatises that have flexible premises at their core?
    It's easy enough to repeat again.
     
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  3. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    I have no vested interest in proving the claim one way or another. I didn’t challenge anyone to substantiate the claim, you did. I was just trying to give you an opportunity to make your case, but obviously you have no interest in putting any effort into it, so I can't see why I should either.

    If you can't disprove the claim, we're all justified in believing it's true. Isn't that how your logic works?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
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  5. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    If that's true, it then becomes difficult to understand why you have reservations against a standard investigation of early christianity

    I was saying, "If you are interested in looking at these questions, this is the period of history you have to pay attention to (as opposed to some hamitic era from several millennium earlier)".

    Sounds closer to your photo album than mine.
     
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  7. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Would/should it not be both, or either, depending upon which question you are trying to answer.
    The question appears to be: what gave rise to the Trinity in Christian doctrine.
    There thus seem to be two possible areas of enquiry, not mutually exclusive:
    1. How / where / when did the notion of a triune or a triumvirate first arise within religious beliefs.
    2. How did this notion then find its way into the Christian doctrine, and in the form it did.
    Are you not guilty of summarily dismissing enquiry into the first because it doesn't focus on the second?
    Talk of Tertullian is very much limited to the second, and does not address how the notion he documented arose originally, etc.
    Unless one is the opinion that his was an entirely novel notion, of course?

    As far as any discussion on the former goes, dismissing it on grounds of failing to address the latter doesn't really seem to cut it.
    If you are only concerned with the latter, however, then should one probably not avoid discussion of the former?
     
  8. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    1,907
    If you want to track a hamitic influence from several millenium previous, you have to first understand what was happening during the contemporary era of events. You can't expect to be ignorant of that history, and say something knowledgeable about causes to it. There is an incredibly complex cultural, political and philosophical scene happening in the immediate period before, during and after the appearance of Jesus. Since most contributers seemed ignorant of it, I suggested they start with Tertullian as an introductory figure to understand how trinitarianism arose, who were his opponents, how such philosophical discourse was overlaid by a military conflict between the two roman empires, the post-jesus scene ranging from how the bible came to be written in greek to how christianity moved beyond judaic revisionism (and how religious institutions/persons were left with the problem of justifying quite a few doctrines that have no apparent connection to the historical jesus), etc etc.
    If you can find a (polytheistic) hamitic influence in the thick of all that, fine. If all you can do is wiggle your hands about the number three and the geography of oriental orthodoxy (and, apparently for some at least, get blown out of the water by the mere name "Tertullian") its probably a clue to get more well acquainted with the subject.
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    7,625
    And I believe that your photo album has been photo-shopped, poorly at that.

    No matter what logic a theist can muster in favor of his argument, it misses the point by completely ignoring the fact that the argument itself is a false premise, wholly unsupported by lack of any plausible and persuasive evidence.
     
  10. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    1,303
    Why?
    What do you think an understanding of that era brings to the table with regard the more ancient origins of the idea?
    Why not?
    Unless you think that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is utterly original and not based on anything that came previously, then in terms of answering the first question it is pretty much irrelevant.
    All well and good for answering the second part.
    Quite irrelevant, it seems, for answering the first part.
    For those wishing to explore the first question, you still seem to be rejecting their comments out of hand for not having what you consider to be sufficient knowledge to answer the second.
    How do you think knowledge of Tertullian helps with understanding the origin of triunes within ancient religion?
    Do you think the Trinity in Christian doctrine is a wholly new idea?

    If there was a question on the origin of Gordon Ramsay's Cottage Pie, if we mirrored your approach above you'd be dismissing any enquiry into the origins of Cottage Pie because they don't have the requisite knowledge of Gordon Ramsay.
    Yes, no doubt each chef puts their own spin on it, but you don't need to know their life-story or even their particular slant on the recipe to be able to explore the origins of the Cottage Pie.
     
  11. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    At a certain point in the discussion, one would have to tie things in to George Ramsey, I imagine.
     
  12. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    If you meant Gordon rather than George (I have no idea who George Ramsay is) then of course, to answer both parts of the question.
    Does that mean, though, that they can't discuss the origin of the Cottage Pie?
    Does that mean you should look to put a stop to such discussion, simply because you think it should all be about the slant that Gordon Ramsay puts on it.

    As for the questions you ignored:
    How do you think knowledge of Tertullian helps with understanding the origin of triunes within ancient religion?
    Do you think the Trinity in Christian doctrine is a wholly new idea?
     
  13. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, so it's not pertinent if I start discussing George Ramsey's cottage pie when the topic is about connecting it to Gordon Ramsey's cottage pie? You don't think you have set the bar a bit high? I mean what is the real need to discuss anything connected to Gordon Ramsey when the subject is Gordon Ramsey's cottage pie?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ramsay
     
  14. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    If George Ramsey (or did you mean Ramsay... it's getting confusing with you introducing new names each post) was an influence on Gordon Ramsay with regard his Cottage Pie, then it would seem pertinent to such a discussion.
    It wouldn't be pertinent to simply talk generally about George Ramsay/Ramsey with no reference to the pie in question.

    As for the questions you keep ignoring:
    How do you think knowledge of Tertullian helps with understanding the origin of triunes within ancient religion?
    Do you think the Trinity in Christian doctrine is a wholly new idea?

    Or do you actually have nothing to offer in this regard?
     
  15. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    1,907
    So just to be clear, at the end of the day, as far as discussing Gordon Ramsey's cottage pie goes, eventually one would expect the subject be connected to Gordon Ramsey (and not George Ramsey, or even Ramesses the Great)?
     
  16. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    2,985
    I thought it was obvious were the trinity idea came from. Christians claimed Jesus was god, and they also claimed there is only one god... The only choice was to invent a logical mobius strip to try and explain the impossible.
     
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  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    7,625
    Why don't you apologize for posting a wrong name for reference. Or have you still not noticed your faux pas, in your own post?

    There is no George Ramsey at all. You accuse people of not knowing Scripture or the history of religion. Yet you post non-existent references and then continue to claim superior knowledge?
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  18. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    1,303
    If discussing the origin of Gordon Ramsay's Cottage Pie then I would expect discussion to be connected to Gordon Ramsay, or to the origin of Cottage Pie.
    If that origin happened to lie with George Ramsey/Ramsay, or even with Ramesses the Great, then why not bring that into the discussion of the origin of Gordon Ramsay's Cottage Pie?
    I certainly wouldn't dismiss discussion on the origin of the cottage Pie in the period before Gordon Ramsay put his own slant on it.

    As to the other questions I have now asked repeatedly, why are you avoiding them?
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Don't hold your breath.
     
  20. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    This is where we beg to differ.
    If we were discussing anything related to Gordon Ramsey's cottage pie, I would expect that at the end of the day, it be exclusively connected to Gordin Ramsey (and not George, John or Jack)..
    Call me a stickler for detail, but if we are discussing how X influenced Y, at some part of the conversation, one has to deal with the exclusive nature of not only X, but also Y.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  21. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    1,907
    If you want to discuss Gordon Ramsey's cottage pie without a specific focus on Gordon Ramsey, what does it matter?
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No, you specifically wanted to discuss Gordon Ramsey's cottage pie, and by name.

    Being that there is no proof there ever existed such a person who specializes in cottage pie, there is nothing to discuss. You cannot create a model of a trinity (you, Gordon or George (Ramsey or Ramsay), cottage pie), using such arguments. Seriously.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  23. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    1,907
    Regardless, if we want to talk about Gordon, it's not sufficient to talk exclusively of John, Jack or Jill, at least IMHO.
     

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