The Feminization Of Man

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by WANDERER, Oct 20, 2003.

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  1. Hastein Welcome To Kampuchea Registered Senior Member

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    I will propose that the universe is not imperfect. Human minds are imperfect. Although from a humanistic standpoint, yes, the universe is imperfect.
     
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  3. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Wanderer:
    *Blinks*
    Since when do I of all people think too much in terms of aggression?

    Aye. And that is what I mean when I say that being powerful is not a matter of having power as being attractive to power.
    All starts with the self. I compare it to the concept of potential vs. kinetic energy.

    Hastien:
    Well, it depends on whether you mean the noble humanism of the Renaissance, which was concerned with a return to classical values or the watered-down Christian humanism of the modern age.

    I think the latter sort of humanist would be one more to blame "the universe as imperfect" since for them the human being is the focus of all effort, and making the world hospitable for him (no matter what the cost in terms of spirituality or to other species) is most important. But...I cannot see such a thing from Erasmus.

    No offense if you're a "secular humanist" - I think the ideology has some value. But the consequences would be parallel to what we live with now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2004
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  5. los Registered Member

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    Wanderer,

    We have spoke before, though with the many to come and detest your thoughts I doubt you will recall. I have come to think and practice much as you, though only in a minute degree. I will be forthcoming and say I have no use for the contempt you so boldly hold for many. I rather take pity on the ignorant, even if they rarely lure my interest. I hope this finds you well, and perhaps in quieter days we will speak again.
     
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  7. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    Indifference is a sign of power.
    I have grown in indifference through time.
    But how powerful are we really in a world populated by morons and imbeciles that vote?
    I too feel pity and compassion and yes sometimes hatred for the retarded.
    My contempt is a product of being overwhelmed by quantity with no quality.
    The noble man is asked to choose, either surrender to the status quo and use his mind to fit in or flee into solitude, seclusion and nihilism or fight back.

    Sometimes the powerful entertain themselves by making the weak suffer.
    We rip off a fly's wings and only rarely feel pity for it as it bounces around trying to fly. We are actually entertained by its misery.
    Should I apologize for riping off a morons wings; should I feel pity for a creature with such weak perceptive abilities that feeds on shit; should I feel remorse or ashamed for having done so?
    If I supress my power by submitting to a moral imperative that demands love and compassion for all, especially the weak, am I not in fact giving up power and becoming a slave to a doctrine?
    Why do all deserve to be parts of my initmate environment and members of my tribe or pack?
    Are you still a Christian 'los'?
    Love and compassion is valuable only when it is given out sparingly. He who loves all has a valueless love.
    A prostitutes sexual attentions are meaningless but only for the few imbeciles who need it.
    Is not a womans love more wonderful when it is selective and only reserved for you?

    If the universe isn't imperfect then why is it in constant flux?
    Perfection is changeless; it is perfect what would it change to and why?
    How does the perfect create imperfection and why would it need to create anything at all if it is so?
    Have you thought this thing through?
    Think more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2004
  8. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,001
    WANDERER,

    Sorry about the long post, but you made delicously interesting points and getting my head round them is nothing short of a pleasure (oops!!).

    Most human beings are so attracted to pleasure that they fail to see how it is a mechanism to maintain behaviour and so an enslaving tool; they interpret pleasure itself as the goal because they want it to be so.

    I think you underestimate the meaning of pleasure.
    From your statement you interpret pleasure as something separate, something to be acquired. But for some, enslavement is a pleasure, seeing pleasure as a external mechanism can also be a pleasure. At the end you said; “beacuse they want it so”. What is that, if not a pleasure?
    Pleasure is a natural part of every living being, that is why we all work, in order live more pleasurable lives.
    However, I can understand where you are coming from, or at least I think I can. Images and symbols of pleasure are used as to entice us to do what other people want us to do, this is a mechanism. The idea is to always keep us wanting more, and by working harder this level of pleasure can eventually be obtained. The old “carrot and donkey” trick. But we only adhere to this because we already have some experience of pleasure.


    We feel pleasure in sex so that we may strive to indulge in it and therefore ensure the continuance of the species and of life in general,

    Man feels pleasure in sex, because its nice, that’s what pleasure is, niceness. An intelligent male will understand the significance of the act, and the effect of the act, but while he is in the game of lust, there is no room for such high thinking. He just wants to get low-down and dirty. He wants to please his wife because it means more pleasure for him. Mutual, lustfull selfishness is what good sex is about, IMHO.


    We feel pleasure in eating so as to ensure that we continue searching for nutrition to maintain life, we feel pleasure in human contact and in socializing so as to ensure that we continue to do so, we feel pleasure in power so as to ensure that we always look for it.

    So you could happily eat a plate of boiled carrot and suede with cauliflower and brocholi for afters, as long as you were socialising?

    But by succumbing to that need for that pleasure we are actually making certain that we never find it. We may find power over others, that isn’t hard to do, but power real power is the one over ones self.

    One doesn’t have to “succumb” to pleasure nor can one “not” find pleasure, because it is constitutionally part of our make up. The pleasure that one “has to find” is the one that we will never find. This is the mechanism you spoke of earlier.

    In truth there is no such thing as pleasure only varying degrees of suffering and the absence of it.

    The way I see it is, in truth there is no such thing as suffering, just pleasure. But when man become bewildered by chasing after phantasmagoric ideals, which are in fact alien to his realistic self, he becomes lost, out of place and vunerable, which to me is the root of sufferation. But being humans, we try and make the best out of that situation by trying to obtain pleasure in that medium which really is just a void. In his search for pleasure his mind becomes increasingly tangled and overwhelmed by fantasies, till eventually he doesn’t know what is real and what is not.

    Life is need, need is suffering, ergo life is suffering. To live is the state of being conscious of suffering.

    Only because we make it so.

    What is suffering?

    To me, suffering is “lack of freedom”.


    What we call pleasure is the momentary alleviation of need or suffering causing a temporary absence of it before a new source of suffering replaces it in our mind.

    That is because you see pleasure as an external object.

    We suffer because we need sexual gratification,

    The suffering is the fact that we find ourselves in the predicament of “needing” sexual gratification. The man who doesn’t need it, doesn’t suffer in the same way.

    Many mistake or delude themselves into believing that their own selfish interests are somehow transcending ones and so take their own happiness and contentment to be the goal of all life or the purpose of life’s existence.

    So, what is there outside of pleasure which leads to happiness?
    What do you think, should be the goal of life?

    Life’s only interest is the continuation of life and pleasure is how it ensures it, as pain is also another way to ensure it.

    I would say that is “natures” only interest. Life is here to enjoy, how we enjoy determines how much pleasure or pain we get. Everything we do has an effect and it is these effects maintains the continuation of nature.

    I believe power is the only goal in the universe and life itself is only a new method of acquiring it.

    Power is basically the currency of attraction, attraction causes subjugation, hence power is the ability to bring others under your control, that is why America is the most powerful nation. Opulence is the cause of attraction, that is why people who are opulent are always at the top of the tree. Everybody has some power, even if it is power over a pet, even a baby has power.

    Even if these ideals may be impossible goals in an imperfect universe.

    How do you know the universe is imperfect?

    So you see to give pleasure such transcending power is to fool oneself into believing that the universe is not indifferent to our finite human woes.

    So the “oneself” you refer to, who and what is it, and what is it’s goal or purpose, if not to be happy?

    Pleasure can be the goal of individual power, that is someone may choose to use reason to enhance pleasure in life but another individual may choose to use whatever power it possesses to pursue knowledge, which is irrelevant to pleasure, or adventure or enlightenment or even nothingness and death.

    Choice is pleasurable.

    But what do I know? I'm just a wanderer passing through.

    You know quite a lot, I hope you stay around at least for a while.

    Jan Ardena.
     
  9. los Registered Member

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    Indifference is as much a sign of power as it is of weakness. You are far from indifferent, your passion for your convictions tells you this.

    Do you wish that all think as you? That the quanity overcome the quality? Or that all individuality be departed and we remain as soliders to one thought? Your following words of 'given out sparingly' and 'selective' would suggest that you do not indeed wish for such. So why hate ignorant? Potential can be a grand adventure. Knowledge is to be used as much for its own benefit as it is to be in the assistance of another. Why do you fast? Or walk instead of drive? Do you not hope to gain the respect for others who do not have the choice? Is it really "your" tribe?

    Your observations are keen, but you lack a view to the horizon, and a reflection for simply being. Knowledge is power, but it is worthless unless it is used to enhance that which is not transitory.
     
  10. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    JAN ARDENA
    I believe I’ve already answered this question.
    Power as a goal to be used towards personal ends; whatever they may be.

    Because it is in flux.
    Only that which is imperfect changes. Perfection has reached the end and need not go further because there is no further.

    Spoken like a true deluded over-optimist.
    I think you need to reread my post and consider my points more carefully, you’ve missed their point in most cases and so I will not respond to them specifically.

    I’m not planning to go anywhere but what’s in it for me?
    How do you propose to entice me to stay?

    Dear Jan if there were a transcending purpose we would be salves to it.
    The fact that there is none is what offers us free-will.
    Power is the goal of life but the purpose can only be provided by you.
    Some use their power to seek out pleasure and devote themselves to hedonism others choose to seek out knowledge and use power towards that end.
    When one has power he/she may even decide to use it to subjugate oneself to an idea or an ideal.
    The question is what would you use your power for?
    I believe you’ve already answered: pleasure.
    The way you describe pleasure it reminds me of animals.
    Aren’t animals governed by the pursuit of pleasure?
    All animals do is follow instinctive drives that are rewarded with the sensation of pleasure.
    Are you just a beast then? I’m not, I want to be more than a slave to my instincts, I want to be master over them.

    What is self?
    An amalgamation of forces working in unison and sometimes in opposition and governed over, in higher species, by reason for the purpose of heightened survivability.
    When there is an excess of intellect, as Schopenhauer believed, this intellect becomes a more objective observer of self leading to self-awareness and abstract thought. It also frees itself from the focus of instinct- pain/suffering- and can even go against it in many cases as in asceticism or suicide or self-sacrifice.
    But it's late now and I'm tired so I can't get into it further.

    los
    My passion is given or retracted at will and it is focused towards specific individuals and types of individuals, to the many I am indifferent and could care less if they are offended by me, if they hate me or if they do not understand me.
    But of course when we speak of characteristics we are talking about degrees not absolutes. When I say I am indifferent I mean relative to the average man.
    My mortality forces me to not be completely indifferent to mankind and my participation in a Democracy forces me to not be indifferent to the masses and their stupidity.
    Here is the source of my greatest bitterness. This is why I am bothered by ignorance and stupidity. It has a direct influence on my life whether I try to avoid it or not. Morons vote, idiots live all around me, imbeciles hold positions of authority and social power, retards own guns and so on and so on.

    No, I do it to gain an advantage and to gain power over myself and strength in my nature.
    The only ‘respect’ I crave is that of my equals and superiors, the many can kiss my ass.
    In fact the more they underestimate me the better and the more they hate or misunderstand me the better.I want them to be oblivious to what and who I am and in this way I can more easily manipulate them.
    In my private life I usually enhance delusion and ignorance in others by pretending to buy into it.
    Do not mistake my on-line persona, that is here to challenge itself and test its abilities and thoughts, with that of my ‘real-life’ persona. In everyday existence I am a hypocrite, I wear a mask, I cultivate an image and I tell people what I know they want to hear.
    I am only myself with those that can understand and appreciate me.

    You can’t have keen eyesight and still miss the horizon.
    You may not like my conclusions but that may be your fault and not mine.
    Do you actually believe I don’t use my insights to better my life and to enhance my existence; do you actually believe I just think and not apply my thinking practically?
    You haven’t, perhaps, read my essay called ‘The value of philosophy’. I think I’ve posted it here but if I haven’t you can read it on my web-page.
    Wisdom and knowledge that isn’t applied practically is useless.
    As for enhancing that which is not transitory, my need for this comes and goes.
    Sometimes my own mortality makes me strive to make a difference in someone’s life and perhaps make a difference to my species, but most of the time this very same mortality makes me care less.
    If I’m not around, who the fuck cares what happens to my kind? Most don’t deserve to be alive anyways.
    The way I see life is as an opportunity to explore and to achieve ones personal highest potential in the areas he/she wishes to exceed. For me personally my areas of focus are my mental and physical strength, perfection and beauty, in other words, my overall power as an individual man. Any inadvertent side-effects are enjoyed but not intended.
    I have been very careful and selective in how I exert my energies and with whom I associate with.
    I don't like wasting the most precious thing I own, my time. That's why I'm often blunt and to the point.
    I don’t have many friends but the ones I do have are close ones, I don’t have much money but what I have I enjoy thoroughly, I don’t socialize often but when I do I pull out all the stops, I don’t take on responsibilities often but when I do I am loyal to them, I don’t start many new things but the ones I do start I finish, I don’t love or respect many but the ones I do I am willing to die and kill for, I rarely promise but when I do I carry it out.
    I’m efficient.
    Sometimes my pride in myself comes across as arrogance but so be it.
    I accept the consequences of my words and actions and I stand by them.
     
  11. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,001
    WANDERER,

    I believe I’ve already answered this question.
    Power as a goal to be used towards personal ends; whatever they may be.


    Then obviously your belief is unfounded.
    Your understanding of "power" is in my opinion, limited. You see power as something outside of ourselves. What about the power the ability to "use", to have a personal end??

    Because it is in flux.
    Only that which is imperfect changes. Perfection has reached the end and need not go further because there is no further.


    It is in flux? So what? that doesn't suggest anything is flawed, it may "perfectly" be in flux. If something is designed to change at certain times and it performs that function without fault, then it is perfect.

    I think you need to reread my post and consider my points more carefully, you’ve missed their point in most cases and so I will not respond to them specifically.

    Spoken like a true, deluded egotist.

    I’m not planning to go anywhere but what’s in it for me?
    How do you propose to entice me to stay?


    You may learn something?

    The fact that there is none is what offers us free-will.

    Apart from the fact that this is non-sense reasoning on your part, what evidence do you have that there is no transcending purpose, that allows you to state it as a fact?

    Power is the goal of life but the purpose can only be provided by you.
    Some use their power to seek out pleasure and devote themselves to hedonism others choose to seek out knowledge and use power towards that end.


    You're all mixed up my friend. In one breath you say power is the goal of life, then in the same sentence you say power is used toward "that end", signifying not only that there is a reason for using power, but that it is used purely in pursuit of pleasure.
    If power is the goal of life, then hedonism and knowledge would be less than power. Would it not?

    When one has power he/she may even decide to use it to subjugate oneself to an idea or an ideal.

    By that logic a drug-addict or alcoholic can be considered a powerful person as they are seriously subjugated.

    The question is what would you use your power for?

    The answer is I am already using my power i.e. conversing with you, without such power it would be impossible.
    Another answer, which would probably be closer to the limitations you put on power would be, i would most probably use it to enhance my egotistical tendancies.

    The way you describe pleasure it reminds me of animals.

    And you're point is?

    Aren’t animals governed by the pursuit of pleasure?

    Yes.

    Are you just a beast then?

    No i'm not just a beast, but i could easily be if i wanted to.

    I’m not, I want to be more than a slave to my instincts, I want to be master over them.

    Which is precisely what makes you human.

    What is self?
    An amalgamation of forces working in unison and sometimes in opposition and governed over, in higher species, by reason for the purpose of heightened survivability.


    Nice bunch of words, but it means "jack".
    Try something a little closer to home, after all we are talking about "self".

    When there is an excess of intellect, as Schopenhauer believed, this intellect becomes a more objective observer of self leading to self-awareness and abstract thought. It also frees itself from the focus of instinct- pain/suffering- and can even go against it in many cases as in asceticism or suicide or self-sacrifice.

    Intellect is a word which descibes. It is something which is developed, it is not something one goes and buys. As ever, you wander outside of what the power is.

    Jan Ardena.
     
  12. los Registered Member

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    I am stuck between asking you two queries. This shows how two people can be so very alike and yet so very different. Knowledge is worthless if it can't be used in the advancement of future generations. This means those that obtain it *must* be willing to be malleable as well as willing to put themselves on the line for another. It appears you have discovered yourself, but you seem to ignore that knowledge does have a purpose beyond the self. You are correct that we are often nothing more than an echo in the wind and no one will look for us once we have departed. But there are changes to be made, impacts to endure. Without anothers voice, we are nothing.

    I doubt that I will convince you, there is something that may inherently block you from the universe itself. I won't try. I believe we are only what we are percieved to be. In this fashion, and paradoxically so, your brilliance is your weakness.
     
  13. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    Jan Ardena
    If you say so but have you read my post?
    I've actually mentioned this. Are you paying attention or not?
    I grow tired of repeating myself.
    Power is the ultimate goal, but how it is used and towards what goals it is employed gives it meaning.

    I think we mean different things by using the same words.
    Reconsider what perfection is, think carefully and then decide if change is an option.
    Why would perfection alter what is already perfect?
    For example, why would paradise become something else when it is already paradise, to put it in more simplistic terms, and why would a circle, the most perfect known shape, turn to a square which is a less than perfect shape.
    Not precise examples, due to their simplicity, but good enough.

    Because then there would be no freedom. I suggest that if there is a single transcending purpose that it should be denied so that liberty is rescued.
    But if there were a transcending purpose then there would be no anxiety as to its validity and existence.
    Name one transcending purpose and expose the quality of your intellect.
    A warning: be careful, opinions say much about whom and what we are.
    Here I am tempted to use a Nietzschean argument: I am the designer of truth and reality and what I decide it is, IS. That is what makes me powerful, the fact that I decide and I don’t need an external source to decide for me.
    I need not prove an absolute truth, because there is none, I need only prove a superior one because that is all there is: superior and inferior truths.
    I can’t prove there is not a transcending truth or a God or a purpose you can’t prove that there is, so what remains is to discover which one of us has a better truth or god or purpose.
    Do you get it yet?!
    No, I don’t think so.

    Dear, dear Jan, an addict has no choice he can't dominate once subjected. Power, even subjugated power by choice, still retains the option to break free from the subjugation.
    Obviously an addict cannot do this unless he/she has the power to do so.
    I fear you haven't considered these matters very deeply.

    Translation: "I don't understand what you are saying, make it simpler for me."

    los
    Why must I agree with you in order to be right?
    You choose to focus your energies towards altruistic pursuits, I choose egotistical ones; you choose to devote your energies towards the advancement of man, I choose to devote my energies towards the advancement of self that leads to the same result; you believe that there can be no nobler goal than the betterment of mankind, I believe it is the advancement of self that inevitably leads to the overall good [by the way nature is based on this principle of selfishness, look around you]; you believe in advancing all of humanity together, I believe in the few using the many and then leaving them behind because there will always be need for the many and their services.
    I’m an elitist.
    In a world of ‘overmen’ who will serve, who will obey, who will sacrifice, who will worship?
    Learn to discriminate.
    There are superior and inferior men and women, should the superior sacrifice themselves for the inferior?
    In a world of no forests and wilderness we have replaced them with cities.
    In a world with no threatening predators [except bacterium] we prey on one another.
    Mankind is not a brotherhood anymore we are different castes from common origins working to promote our own designs and interests by dominating the others.
    The only ones that can share in our goals and dreams and lives are those that can share in our thoughts and awareness and quality.
    Should we waste time trying to advance dogs or cats or apes just because we share genetic material and pasts or because we exist on the same planet?
    Not everyone can be saved or enlightened.

    Insinuating that you have an insiders perspective and that it is I that is being “blocked” means little to me.
    So far you have offered no personal views but only ones in relation to my own.
    Should this be taken as proof that you are correct and I am wrong?
    Your paradox can be easily turned on you with the same inadequate results.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2004
  14. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,001
     
  15. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    Power is a state of being. Self-sufficiency, freedom, perfection can also mean the same thing in its absolute form.
    But since there are no absolutes there can only be varying degrees of.
    To have power is to be dominant, to be in control, to have choice, to be independent from, to be master of.

    Here you are asking me to answer the deepest mystery of all.
    I don't know.
    Life itself is a product of imperfection and a search for perfection or an attempt at it. It is matter that is given adaptability and consciousness that facilitates the search for ultimate stability and perfection.

    WRONG!!!!
    Power is a state of being, what you call a function is a means not the end.
    If the universe is flawless then it should be indestructible.

    Than what or whom.
    All value judgments are comparisons.
    Are you asking me in what way am I more powerful than you?

    That which leads to powerlessness or to less degrees of power than higher truth.
    If you say you know truth but your truth entails a code of conduct that prevents you from using violence and I say I know truth but I have no such code and I then kill you which truth survives and is this truth not superior because it survived?

    Irrelevant to me.
     
  16. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,001
    WANDERER,

    Power is a state of being.

    That does not explain what power is, only what "your" perception of power is.

    perfection can also mean the same thing in its absolute form.
    But since there are no absolutes there can only be varying degrees of.


    1) Perfection means; #the quality or state of being; #freedom from fault or defect; # an unsurpassable degree of accuracy or excellence;
    "Power" is the ability to attain such heights. Power can also create a imperfect situation depending on who has control.
    There is power behind the Bentley, but the real power lies in the creators of such a machine. Without the creators the Bentley could not exist even though the power is always existent.

    2) Here you have contradicted yourself, claiming there are no absolutes is itself an absolute.

    To have power is to be dominant, to be in control, to have choice, to be independent from, to be master of.

    Agreed.

    Here you are asking me to answer the deepest mystery of all.
    I don't know.


    Then why argue that the universe is imperfect?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Power is a state of being,

    So is weakness, happiness, tiredness, liveliness etc..

    what you call a function is a means not the end.

    Whatever it is, it can be flawless.

    If the universe is flawless then it should be indestructible.

    Indestructability is not a sign of imperfection, if it is designed to be destroyed at a certain point and it achieves its goal, then it is perfect in everyway.

    Than what or whom.

    You said in rerferance to Nietzsech's quote; "i am the designer of truth and....." that's what makes you powerful. So i am asking, in what way are you powerful?

    Are you asking me in what way am I more powerful than you?

    I have a feeling that i would feel embarassed for you, if you attempted an answer at that question. So, no i am not.

    That which leads to powerlessness or to less degrees of power than higher truth.

    Fair enough. My understanding of truth is one.

    If you say you know truth but your truth entails a code of conduct that prevents you from using violence and I say I know truth but I have no such code and I then kill you which truth survives and is this truth not superior because it survived?

    Not really no. Even though my truth may involve a non-violent code, what if i say fuck-it and kill you anyway and proclaim a new truth.
    The point is that your idea of an inferior and superior truth is a non-sense.

    Irrelevant to me.

    Then your explanation means nothing as it was entirely irrelivant, the same as your attitude. Your explanation was a desparate attempt to exhert power and authority, but in the end you defeated yourself by exposing your superficiality. Adolescent femininity in all its glory.

    Jan Ardena.
     
  17. Hastein Welcome To Kampuchea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    379
    I am not a humanist. I am an anti-humanist, a naturalist you could say. I just suggested that from the perspective of a humanist, nature is imperfect. Nature is essenitally imperfect for humans from any point of veiw.
     
  18. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    Jan Ardena
    Jesus girl you are exposing your lack of understanding here to everyone with half a brain.
    I wonder who’s perspective you’re espousing, God’s?
    Have you heard of perspectivism- Nietzsche, Democritus?
    Read-up and get back to me because as things stand I’m talking to the wall.
    When I say ‘I’ I’m expressing my perspective, when I talk I’m expressing my perspective.
    What the hell’s your point?
    Once more from the top. There are higher and lower truths, meaning there are higher and lower perspectives on what truth is, since the absolute is unattainable.
    Basic philosophy dear.

    Zeus help me!!!!
    I'm talknig in circles.
    Basic human fact: Not all are able to comprehend philosophy. Maybe they’re good at arts and crafts or cooking or sports but they just aren’t made to wrap their minds around abstract thought.
    They should move on.

    That’s sweet.
    Can it also be the most nihilistic statement I’ve ever heard?
    Phe-Phi-Pho-Phum I smell the mind of a Christi-an.

    I see, understand, and perceive more than you is the only simple answer you could understand.
    When I look into the world I see levels and textures you can’t even imagine. You live in the world of the surface and the façade and so any talk about what lies behind confuses you.
    I believe this conversation is OVER!!!!!
    I might as well try to explain toilet etiquette to a dog.
    Don't worry Jan, I'm sure you are a lovely person in many other ways.

    So your truth is reliant on personal interests and survival?
    Now we are getting somewhere.

    Your not so subtle attempts at psychological manipulation, typical of females, was quit pathetic.
    That’s right I defeated myself but at least it wasn’t you that did it.
    I’m superficial?
    News to me but whatever you say.
    If only you knew how I lived and why.
    But you wouldn’t understand that either.
    Now go back to your TV and chips and dip.

    Hastein
    Man is nature. Man is nature looking at itself.
    Evolution is made necessary only because of imperfection.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2004
  19. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,001
    WANDERER,

    What the hell’s your point?

    Your have not explained what power is, only some effects.
    Your answer would make more sense if the question was; What can be gained with power?

    There are higher and lower truths, meaning there are higher and lower perspectives on what truth is, since the absolute is unattainable.

    Higher and lower truths, make no sense, different perspectives on what truth is, makes sense.

    Basic philosophy dear.

    I’m happy for you.

    I'm talknig in circles.

    You are, aren't you.

    Zeus help me!!!!
    I'm talknig in circles.
    Basic human fact: Not all are able to comprehend philosophy. Maybe they’re good at arts and crafts or cooking or sports but they just aren’t made to wrap their minds around abstract thought.
    They should move on.


    What is this non-sense?
    You say the universe in imperfect, when asked why is it imperfect you say you don’t know. So why state as fact that it is imperfect?
    You say “life is a product of imperfection”, what does that mean.
    No matter how un-philosophical you feel my enquiry is, they are still valid questions. From my perspective anyway.

    Can it also be the most nihilistic statement I’ve ever heard?

    So what’s you’re point?

    Phe-Phi-Pho-Phum I smell the mind of a Christi-an.

    Let’s not go there.

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    I see, understand, and perceive more than you is the only simple answer you could understand.

    Some of your understanding and perceptions are foolishness. You’re problem is you are over-confident, and for no good reason.
    Swallowing philosophical books, and then using quotes or reflections to beat people, (who are in disagreement with you) over the head with, is not what understanding is.
    But i guess you wouldn't understand that, would you?

    When I look into the world I see levels and textures you can’t even imagine.

    I think I can imagine what a mirror looks like.

    You live in the world of the surface and the façade and so any talk about what lies behind confuses you.

    I believe the same can be said for almost every living being on this planet, to some degree or other. What what makes you so different?

    I might as well try to explain toilet etiquette to a dog.

    That’s not really a nice thing to say to someone, is it?
    I’d like to think that I have quite a bit more ability for learning, than a dog, but what the hell, you are entitled to your opinion.
    But I’ve come to understand how it works on these forums so am not affected by such belligerence.

    quote; “A warning: be careful, opinions say much about whom and what we are”

    So your truth is reliant on personal interests and survival?

    No, that is how you describe truth;

    quote “If you say you know truth but your truth entails a….”

    Truth is not reliant on anything, on the contrary, we are reliant on the truth. IMHO.
    Didn't you read my post.

    If only you knew how I lived and why.

    How could I know, unless you say?

    But you wouldn’t understand that either.
    Now go back to your TV and chips and dip.


    What?
    More cheap shots or one of those levels of texture I don’t understand?

    Jan Ardena.
     
  20. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,996
    Wanderer - do you really believe that evolution and perfection are compatible concepts?

    Jan - Wanderer dismisses people easily, but he says he's here to test his beliefs. Ignore the cheap shots and keep talking.
     
  21. WANDERER Banned Banned

    Messages:
    704
    Jan Ardena asks:
    I've answered:
    If my definition does not satisfy you then offer an alternative or move on.

    To you.
    I already explained that the value judgment of what is lower and higher is a personal one determining to the amount of power each truth leads to.
    Truth that leads nowhere but down, truth that leads to powerlesness like Christian truth for instnace, is 'lower' truth or a lower perspective on truth. The reverse is....you figure it out.

    Jan Ardena asks AGAIN!:
    I deduce that the universe is imperfect from the fact that it is not constant and un-altering.
    Why it is so is beyond my ability to explain.
    DO YOU U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D?!!!!!!!
    What is in flux is imperfect or it wouldn’t be in flux if it were.
    What would perfection change to? Imperfection?
    What is perfect is indestructible because it is self-contained and in a state of stasis.
    Paradise is inert.
    Pain and suffering occur where there is a need, where there is a need there is weakness or imperfection.
    Why do I bother?! Now that’s the question.

    Just like I figured, another Christian trying to rescue their delusions from the pits of hell.

    My genes, my experiences, chance, all of the above?
    Take your pick.

    Nice?! NICE?!
    You think we are here to be nice?
    Can you understand how ignorance can be frustrating?
    Try explaining things to a child.

    BigBlueHead
    I said evolution is possible because of imperfection.
    If creatures were perfect in a perfect environment within a perfect universe there would be no need for adaptation, natural selection and mutation.

    One can only be challenged and tested by that which is its equal or better.
    A fighter entering a ring with an inferior fighter may win repeatedly but does not improve and is wasting his time.
    you cannot test your views against that which is not at your level.
    Do you understand?
     
  22. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,996
    But the very fact that you address these ideas, perfection and the "need" for adaptation, indicates that you're not paying attention to what people are saying when they talk about evolution, which is that it doesn't have a purpose any more than a rock that rolls downhill. If you don't like green jelly beans, then the green jelly beans "survive".

    Don't play stupid. Fighting and arguing are not the same thing at all. I'll throw an irritating platitude right back at you-

    "If you can't teach something than you probably don't know it."

    Which might be something to remember each time you accuse everyone else of not understanding anything. Go on, show us.
     
  23. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Head:
    Argument is a ritualized form of fighting, rather like the rams whose horns curl backwords so that the other rams will not be too badly hurt when they head-butt each other during mating season.

    What makes it especially funny is that you're arguing about evolutionary psychology.
     
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