The Faces of Meth

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Bowser, Jan 9, 2005.

  1. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,654
    1. I do not, never have, and never will manufacture meth for anyone.
    2. There are multiple recipes for meth production and at least one I am aware of uses brake fluid.
    3. The Lithium for meth recipes is not just obtained via pharmacutical products.
    4. Meth producers and users give meth a bad name.
     
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  3. shadarlocoth Registered Senior Member

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    2. you might be right there are many ways to make meth but who knows which way is the safest.

    3. your right its not obtained via pharmacutical products its got from lith camara batterys that are taken apart and cleaned then desloved in the anahidrus.

    4. ya they do thats why we need a orgonized cartel to take over and produce clean safe meth for the worlds meth users.
     
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  5. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.lifeormeth.org/

    I haven't used meth, but I can say that I have heard enough to know it's a bad choice. Even when I was a youngster I knew there were olenty of things whith which you didn't want to experiment. I don't see anything here on this thread that would suggest that meth is worth the risk.

    Would anyone here advise their younger brother or sister or child to give it a try?
     
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  7. ScRaMbLe Chaos Inc. Registered Senior Member

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    666
    shit no.

    But I wouldn't write them off as a lost cause if I found out they were using it.
     
  8. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    6,075
    I agree. But you would encourage them to stop?
     
  9. ScRaMbLe Chaos Inc. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    666
    I don't have a younger brother/sister so for me its hypothetical. That said it would depend on my relationship with him/her as to how I would approach it... At the end of the day, kids are going to experiment, so the best approach is harm minimization. I would probably refer him/her to this thread!
     
  10. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    6,075
    Enough said...
     
  11. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    OK. Fair enough.

    Without being present when a drug is made, no one can say for sure which method was used. Additionally, I did not state which method I refered to (I wasnt refering to one method), only that some of the ingredients were the same in the link you posted, some were not. According to one website (it was NIDA I think) there are a couple hundred meth recipes (I did not know that there were that many variations). I will ask someone I know who has researched this over the last 10 years (for this region, north central usa) and get back to you. He is raising a child on his own, since he got custody after mom returned to her meth addiction. 7 years off the stuff, 2 years fighting to get custody from her and it wasn’t her meth use that swung the courts (she never got caught), it was the fact she kept the kid out of school for a year and had no permanent address.

    I base my physically addictive information on what other users told me of their withdrawl. Tremors was a common theme with all of them, as was sweats, and that is physical. You give them the meth and these effects stop. After a 2-3 days these symptoms go away (for the most part). Is it as intense as say, heroin withdrawl? I do not know.

    I stated I know no former meth users. They all go back, eventually. And this is what I have seen. No user who has suffered a serious deteriation of health anticipated it happening to them. There is no way to know if your the one who is going to become addicted or if you will be the one to suffer health problems. I did a google search on australian methamphetamine and was surprised by the lack of hits.
    Heres one link I found. http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/ndarc....579a85f7bca256b560004efd7/$FILE/db_jun023.pdf

    It appears the purity in Australia is very unpredictable (that does vary here too). It also appears the methods of production are changing there now too. Maybe its happening and you dont know it (sounds like you havent been involved with this for a while). Maybe its only a few years behind what is occuring here, and maybe in 2 years, or 5 years that will change. If it does not, hey, Great for Australians! All of Australia would be better off without it.

    As if the meth producers themselves offer a balanced view. Ignoring the extreme is irresponsible. Extremes do happen. We have plenty of seller/users out there encouraging people to "just try it, you will like it, its ok". Or the ever popular "It didnt hurt me none".

    Its not law enforcements job to tell users illegal drug use is manageable. Its not teachers place to minimize any type of drug use. Thats simply not their job. Most parents dont want their kids being told "not everyone who uses meth gets addicted". And the ones who do want that usually are users themselves. Are you a parent yet? Becoming a parent changed my p.o.v. on multiple issues.

    I think the information being offered by those persons (promoters of meth) are to promote their view, just as police, counselors, teachers, etc promote their view, or their employers view.

    Yes, people who have witnessed with their own eyes become suspicious. But that is a flaw of people all around. No one ever thinks its going to happen to them. I am suspicious of anyone who thinks meth is ok for that very reason.


    If I were to base my view of meth on my own limited use I would be in 100% agreement with you. It didnt affect me that way. I didnt need it either. I didnt even experience a slight psychological dependence. But "speed" wasnt my drug of choice. Sure it was nice to be perky and attentive at all night parties, but it was easy for me to "just say no" to meth and just keep filling up on beer. That is probably the biggest factor. The drug did not amuse me the way it amused these people who have decended into the depths of the meth nightmare. They really liked how it made them feel. They really liked the drug. And therein is the problem. Who, of the people you know who use a particular drug because of how the drug makes them feel, say, Oh, I cant do that ever again because I really like it and I might not be able to stop? They never stop before they impact themselves in a negative fashion. Some get smart the first time they smash up a car without killing someone or themselves. Some get smart the first time they make themselves sick. But they wont end up as pictures on that website either. But you and I haven’t any idea which ones will become a scab infested, aged beyond their years mugshot.

    As far as self policing, it simply doesnt work. Sure there are isolated incidents where a drug dealer is rolled over for bad stuff (and occasionally for putting out too pure of a product). But isolated they remain. For many reasons.

    I wasnt anti-meth until about 5 years ago myself. I didnt care what people did to themselves, hey its their choice. But times, and life experience change peoples opinions all the time. And thats what happened for me. I hate what it is doing to people I know, and the people who care about them (their children, their parents, their mates, their siblings, etc.). Its one of those drugs that is best left alone by everyone. There are simply too many unknowns. From the drug itself, to the impact it may have on a person, whether physically or mentally, to the risk to yourself via the legal issues if you are caught by law enforcement.

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  12. ScRaMbLe Chaos Inc. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    666
    First off, great link. That is probably the most accurate imformation on Australian meth I have seen. They even got the names and prices pretty close.

    For reference, the meth I am talking about is refered to in the above link as 'base' or 'point'. It was always just called meth where I was from though and 'point' being the amount. ie 0.1 grams. It was a gluggy paste with crystaline solids and an orange or pink tinge.

    It is quite baffling to me (honestly) that you personally know so many people who have had serious addictions and problems with the drug. Something is definately different to the situation here and...

    ... I am very interested in what information your friend can give us.

    The same symptoms occur with alcoholics. I dont think alcohol is classed as an addictive substance in the same way as, say, nicotine or heroin. In my view, people get addicted to meth and need the kick in the same way they do with coffee, that is, it ends up just being a stimulant to give them energy and get them through the day. Not because they are seeking a high or are suffering cravings for the drug, which is why I believe it is mainly psychologically addictive.

    Most of the information given in the sight was current with my understanding of the situation. Except for one point. I have never known anyone who has smoked or injected meth. I saw a friend of a friend inject speed once years ago and I felt sick watching him. Perhaps that might be a point of difference between the realty I knew and the one you are familiar with... injecting was completely taboo and left to the realm of heroin junkies. This might be part of the reason there are less problems here, injecting would lead to higher dosage and higher concentrations in the blood which would cause health issues a lot quicker.

    No I'm not a parent. When I read this I posed myself a question. If, down the track I do have kids and one of them came to me one day and told me he/she was planning on going to a rave... what would I say and how would I feel about that? Honestly, I dont know. This is what I was talking about with the 'not everything is black/white'. There are two sides to the coin and some very grey areas in between.
    One the one hand, as you have clearly demonstrated, there is a dark side of drug culture, which I would want to protect my children from at any cost.
    On the other hand, I remember what it felt like to be there. Standing in a crowd off my face on E and meth. The E coursing through my viens like liquid silk and the meth keeping me on the dance floor for 10 hours at a time. At one with the crowd. At one with the music. It didn't matter if you were black, white, asian, guy, girl, straight, gay, short or tall... all were equal and all that mattered was the moment. The knowledge, experience and insights into human nature I've learned are invaluable and I wouldn't want to deprive my children of this... But how could I let them go? How could I live with myself if something did happen to them? I know for one thing, if they never brought up the idea of going to raves, I wouldn't push the issue.

    Grey, grey areas.

    When I said "repercussions" I wasn't just talking about violence. The bottom line is the $. If a dealer gets a reputation for selling dodgy or low grade gear then people are going to go somewhere else to get it and they will lose most of there business. Its not like in the movies where you see a dealer on a street corner or down a dark alley. Its through networking that a dealer get a good reputation and people feel safer and more confident buying from them. The connections are everything, so they get a bad rep and they're history.

    At the end of the day, I'll say yes. There are safer and better drugs out there if someone feels the desire to go down that path.

    It still amazes me how many people you know with serious meth problems though... I can't get over it!
     
  13. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,654
    Rough outline for this region:

    60s thru mid/late 80s. Called Bathtub speed/meth or Crank. Trickle down economics here as far as availablity and purity. The closer to the source you were, the less stomped your stuff was. Sometimes recipes were available, but at high $ cost. Tighened law enforcement and restrictions on primary chemicals made this type harder and harder to manufacture and obtain (still floats around out there). Recipes became easier to obtain (if you cant make money producing, make money selling the recipe).

    Phosphorus was around in varied degrees at this point (late 80s). Became the primary recipe, but that only lasted 2-4 years. People rejected it because bad batches were too common, and the potential for explosion was too high (still floats around out there).

    Lithium became the primary around 1994. The people I have been telling you about are using this and failing. I should have tape recorded his laugh after he said "these guys call it the good stuff..."


    A physical need/withdrawl is a physical need/withdrawl. Some alcoholics need to be drugged while they go thru their withdrawl (delirium tremens) or they could die. But not all alcoholics going thru their physical withdrawl need that. And no heroin user needs other drugs to keep them alive during the physical withdrawl, but those who are physically addicted to the barbituates do.

    Our point of contention was whether meth is physically addicting. Not degrees of physical addiction. You were not aware of this aspect, but I disagreed and via other users experience, shared that information with you. Heres a link about the DTs.
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    http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/9339/9788.html


    The brother of a friend doing 6-10 never used a needle to get where he is. The friend of mine doing 5, didnt use a needle either. These people I write of are not in the shape/circumstance they are now because of IV meth use that I am aware of. I do not know if they smoked it. I do know they injested it via eating it. Probably snorted it for a while too.

    By "rolled over" I meant to the cops. The au. website finds a purity variable of 1% to 90%. Doesnt seem that dodgy or low grade has been a factor in au. self policing or bottom line $.

     
  14. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    A very honest answer.

    If you react like I did, you will probably pound into your childs head that drugs are bad and you dont know how any of this stuff was made, and if your gonna use stick with "pot or alcohol, blah, blah, blah".

    Then a boy you only know as Mikey shows up, dressed in leather with multicolored spiked hair and pierced nose (you remember the kid from the football games who didnt look like this), to give your kid ride to the [insertTeenFunction] (or is in the car waiting with the others) and you will flash back to that dude Spike that you knew.

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    This may be the very first time you are faced with the potential (whether real or imagined) your kid might be doing something harmful.

    You may begin to experience panic attacks and possibly heart palpatations. The whole time your kid(s) are gone, you wont be able to sleep, everytime the phone rings your heart will race a bit faster, worse case scenarios will roar thru your mind as you try to watch tv. It will be the first time in years you have thought about Spike.

    When the kid gets home from his/her first rave/concert you will feign a smile, enquire into "how was the [event]", and quietly suffer the "negative effects" of your body/mind having been worked up into a near frenzy, suddenly getting a dose of the drug you were withdrawning from [your kid(s) safe return home].

    Such is the life of a parent. Parenting is a psychological addiction. Life long.

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  15. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    Back to the personal experience part. I knew this was coming.

    I would add that my own personal use is minimal at best. Comparing the relatively few times I used the stuff would be like saying "I smoked cigarettes for one summer, or maybe a couple years when I was young, (depending on how you classify relatively few times) and therefore I understand tobaccos effect on the general tobacco using population". Where would you place yourself this generalized scale?

    But what my personal experience does offer is an overview of a couple decades worth of multiple scenarios of people I know who lived vastly different lifestyles; suffering now from some/all of the facts of the extreme, on their own individual and personal level. Its not just the users who suffer. The people who care about them suffer too. People who have drifted in and out of my life since we first met in Jr. High (decades). Loved ones of people very close to me (more/less decade). People whos children played on the same sports team as mine (less than decade). Maybe I only interacted with them for 2, 3, 4 seasons, but I recognized their names (or their kids/spouse/relatives names) in the paper as they became star attractions on the Police Report section of the local paper. You cant google that information now. Its in an archive or simply removed from public access.

    People who attended the same parties/events as I did. Maybe I only saw them for the 4-16 hours I attended the event/party, but it was every event/party (events were monthly/seasonal/quarterly, some once a year) for a few or many years that we got together, and had fun sharing stories of our lives. Then you get the phone call. “Dave and Chris got busted running a lab. I didn’t know they were even doing that stuff!” And you hang up the phone feeling very sad. Remembering the stories they told you from their pasts and how their stories made you laugh. Remembering how much you had in common with them. I didnt know them when they used. I didnt know they were using again. But they wont be at any more events/parties. Law enforcement is now involved in their lives.

    That is how I know so many. And I dont want no crap about being old.

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  16. ScRaMbLe Chaos Inc. Registered Senior Member

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    666
    True, perheps we should expand to "degrees of physical addiction". I'm not here to win a debate dude, I just find it an interesting conversation!

    The thing is, it's the psychological addiction to alcohol which causes the person to consume alcohol on a regular basis. Their brain gets used to being in that state so once the alcohol is taken away, the countermeasures the brain has put in place over years of abuse suddenly become overpowering which cause the physical symptoms. I think that's somewhat different to the drug itself causing the initial physical cravings... Are you a cigarette smoker Milkweed?

    K... scratch that theory then

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    You're being misleading, in context...

    Anyone with one good eye can spot the difference between speed and ice.

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    Makes me wonder what the worlds gonna be like if/when I get around to having kids and they reach that age.

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    Depends what scale you're talking about, AU or, I'm assuming, US (you still didn't tell me). Rave culture or street culture? Teen demographic, young adult or older user? There is no generalized scale, which is why this topic is difficult to make comparisons with. Was I a heavy user amongst my friends and social scene? Not really. Was I a heavy user compared to the churchgoing scene? Yeah, pretty much.

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    Slightly off topic, but it was estimated in a recent government survey, that in my hometown (pop. approx 1,000,000) 1 in 4 houses were growing Marijuana. Not the same as meth, I know, but still going to get them offside with the law. Thing is, it's not just shady drug dealers doing it. Its family men, trying to make a better life for their kids. Its uni students, trying to scrape up enough to pay their fees. It's Joe down the street, just growing enough for himself and a bit to give his mates.

    Should society or the drug be blamed for this situation?

    You're not old, just chronologically challanged...

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  17. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    Degrees of physical addiction are too subjective for me, I think.


    Heroin doesnt physically addict users the first time they use it. They go back and do it again because it made them feel good (psychological). And not everyone who does heroin or alcohol becomes physically addicted. The only thing that is different that I can see is the timeline. But then, heroin and alcohol are not in the same class of drug. But heroin and meth are. The physical addiction timeline between heroin and meth may be different too. But the psychological are very similar.

    I also think placing some of the psychological meth effects outside of the realm of physical may be a mistake. A brain chemical change (use/withdrawal) is still a physical function and no different than your liver releasing too much/not enough of a chemical because you used/withdrew a substance that alters the livers function.


    Its all the same basic chemistry isnt it? And wouldnt ice at its 90% purity be less dodgy than the stuff which may or may not have been as pure as 1% of the "good stuff"? I bet you cannot tell me what your stuffs purity level was. Unless you were cooking it yourself (or that close to the source).

    What is your absolute knowledge of the purity of the product you used was?

    While you may never use ice, it doesnt mean that a significant percentage (significant imho would be 15 - 20%) of australian meth users wont make the switch from speed to ice. There are people out there who will never try ice, yet search for hours (or even days) for speed. I understand how people (who always stated they would never) begin to use ice. It happens because they cant find speed, but everyone they know has ice. After a week, or a month, (whatever timeline you want to use) of seeing their connections having ice, using ice, and seeming fine with it all, begin to use ice themselves.

    Yes I did. "I will ask someone I know who has researched this over the last 10 years (for this region, north central usa) and get back to you." It was one of those longer responces. I can see how you had forgotten/missed this.

    Rave culture or street culture doesnt matter. What percentage of the rave culture you encountered *1,000 people in one of your posts* (and base your knowledge of meth on) have you followed up on? What percent of people you knew used meth (you did know more than just your mates right?) at these raves developed legal/medical issues because of meth use? Or are you basing your meth opinion (ok to use casually) on only the car load of buddies that you attended these functions with?

    We do agree that all meth abuse starts out as casual use, right?

    Teen, young adult or older doesnt matter. If 10% of each age group has a problem with this particular chemical, its a problem that is not bound by age. (10% would be a low end stat for my own experience with the meth using population). Australia does not have the stats available on problems with legal/health, but has a 10% usage in the general population, as I understood the website. If I remember right, they expected to release a follow up early this year sometime.

    What would you say if that stat indicated 25% of casual users become chronic users? Additionally, what percentage of casual use becoming chronic is acceptable to you, within your ok to use casually, drug education that would work, part of our contention?

    Those who assemble such stats have to rely on the self reporting by the people that do come into contact with product (and law enforcement statistics). As the original link stated, most meth users in that particular jail declined to be interviewed. You will not put yourself on such a generalised scale either. My observations are similar. People using are not forthcoming with information to non-users, even if they are not law enforcement, medical professionals or counselor/therapists. I would doubt they are telling their buddies the whole story either "I feel really sick monday morning but those effects wear off by wednesday morn". What they are telling their buddies is "I know someone who has the good shit man".

    If you have another point of reference scale, go for it.


    Its too off topic for this thread. Its the same thing as comparing heroin sales/manufacturing to weed sales/growing. Even the laws/penalties themselves recognise a difference. There are many people in america (not all drug users) who think pot should be legal, yet do not feel that way about meth. I am one of those.

    I think the blame falls on the users. If users were honest with themselves about the risks (or maybe even aware), they wouldnt be using. But its the psychological boost right? If users werent screwing up their lives they wouldnt be in mugshots. And straight america (or australia) wouldnt have a point of reference to be anti-meth.

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  18. ScRaMbLe Chaos Inc. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    666
    What?

    According to who and what criteria?

    What about other factors like REASONS for doing the drug in the first place. Are you going to tell me they are the same as well?

    I repeat, are you a cigarette smoker? (or did I miss that answer too?)

    Relevance? They LOOK physically different. They taste different. Anyone buying ice is not going to be sold speed on the sly, or vice versa. So the issue of taking something you thought was 1% when really it was 90% WOULD NOT HAPPEN.

    This is a prime example of your 'hype'. You are twisting the facts to try and support your arguement, but achieving nothing except reducing your credibility.

    What? You're calling speed the good stuff? What?

    I could tell the difference between 1% and 90% from across the street.
    Smaller differences with a taste test.

    What is your absolute knowledge of the purity of the air you breathe?

    Where did you pull those stats from?

    Dude, I'm not 'Mikey', let it go.

    Are we cranking up 'Milkweed's mystic statistic machine' again?

    I would say "Are we cranking up 'Milkweed's mystic statistic machine' again?"

    Lets see, oh I don't know, around the same % of drinkers that became alcoholics would be acceptable.

    Your stereotyping is really begining to annoy me. I didn't say how much I used on a 'generalized' scale because you didn't give me any scale to use. I was an erratic user. Might've gone months without using then go months using every weekend, all weekend then go months without using again. It all depended on what events where being held and how much $ I felt like wasting. E would always get priority over meth.

    We used to always talk about how we pulled up the following week. We had a saying "terrible tuesday, worseday wednesday"...Again with the stereotyping. Get a clue.

    No moreso than you comparing alcoholic DTs with meth withdrawls.

    How would you know? Did you borrow my rave clipboard?

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    I'm getting tired of this.
    You haven't taken on board a single thing I've said and would clearly prefer to walk through life with your horse blinkers on. Your way or the doorway.
    I've been trying to present you with a different perspective on an issue which you obviously feel strongly about, but you just take everything I say as a frontal assault on your ideals.
    You feel you can't present a strong enough case against me, so you are throwing every stereotype you've read about in my direction, hoping something will stick that you can use. It wont. I really don't see the point in continuing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2005

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