The existence of evil and the devil.

I have come to the conclusion recently that their is no such thing as "evil". People who were apparently "evil" were just people who's intentions were not to everyone's liking and who actually believed they were doing the right thing (Adolf Hitler's final solution was for the good of all mankind, Joseph Stalin's Purges were for the good of the country, etc.). These people were automatically sterotyped as "evil" because the things they did were wrong.

The Devil was thought up by early naiive philosophers who believed that there must be an opposite for everything (look at the japanese philosophy of ying & yang) and so believed that there must be an opposite higher power for a good God to conflict against.

I look forward to hearing you'r views on the existence of evil (especially you Lori.).

[This message has been edited by The Communist (edited November 04, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by The Communist (edited November 09, 1999).]

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I agree, to an extent. There is such a thing as evil, but the definition varies from person to person.

For example, I believe it is wrong to kill someone for no reason. So, if I go out and kill someone without any provacation, I am by my definition behaving in an evil manner. But to someone else's eyes, this may be good - say the person I killed happened to be black, if you were to consult with a Klansman, he would probably tell you I was behaving in a good manner.

Labeling something as "good" or "evil" doesn't change the thing - a person who has been killed is just as dead no matter what the motivation behind the killing was. I don't believe there can be any absolute that we can compare good and evil against, it all depends on your viewpoint.

There is also degrees of evil & good. Some believe that abortion is evil, and in order to correct the evil, they murder doctors. I assume they then believe that murdering an abortion doctor is less evil than the percieved murder the doctors are visiting upon the fetuses.

The Communist - you state that what Hitler & Stallin did were "wrong" - isn't "wrong" and "evil", & "right" and "good" synonyms for each other in most circumstances? In my above analogies, couldn't the word "wrong" be substituted for "evil"? Again, it all depends on your perceptions. And since perceptions vary so much, I'm inclined to take this one step further and include the words "right" and "wrong" as not having any real, concrete meaning. Something I percieve as wrong or evil today might, in the future, seem to be good, or right.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

As has been pointed out many times in this forum, evil can be very deceptive. Communist, you further substantiate this by your inability to understand that Adolph Hitler's actions were evil.

(By the way, Adolph Hitler was driven by "egotism," not the good of mankind).

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Evil, bad, and wrong are subjective to the morals of the society that the acts take place in. It is also subjective to the morals of the observer of those acts.

(Hey, Lori! Ever notice how folks here keep singling you out (and I know I've done it, too)? You're famous!

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

)

 

>I have come across the conclusion recently that their is no such thing as "evil".
------------------

Have you merely come across the idea, or have did come to that conclusion?

------------------
>People who were apparently "evil" were just people who's intentions were not to everyone's liking and who actually believed they were doing the right thing (Adolf Hitler's final solution was for the good of all mankind, Joseph Stalin's Purges were for the good of the country, etc.). These people were automatically sterotyped as "evil" because the things they did were wrong.
------------------

Define evil. What is this idea that you are rejecting? As an atheist I reject the belief that we are subject to the moral dictation of some sort of supernatural force. I would tend to think of evil as actions or ideas which are malicious and destructive. Such evil undeniably exists.

(Communist, I can't imagine how one might define evil in such a way that the monstrosities of Hitler could be considered anything but evil. Perhaps your idea is "Jusification by intent"?)


Regards,
Blacktubby

 

I am not in any way condoning the actions of Hitler and Stalin and believe what they did was terrible. Their actions could be called evil but this is just an adjective do describe them. I am reffering to the person behind the actions, these people were just mentally unbalanced or driven by power so much that they became mentally unbalanced and lost perception of good and bad. These people were thought to be 'possesed' by a dark force known as evil.

Hitler wasn't evil he was just driven insane by his lust for power and his actions could be described as evil.

[This message has been edited by The Communist (edited November 07, 1999).]

 

I think that you are right to a certain extent. No one is pure evil, they may have an evil streak that shows sometimes, but no one sets out with the diliberate intention of being evil. I think this because one of the basic human needs is to be respected. The people who are "evil" probably set out with the intention of having their name go down in history as being the person who "saved the country from economical deprevation" or something, and base their methods on the saying " you hace to be cruel to be kind ".

 

Having done a bit of reading and study on the topic, some books that may be of interest, if you want to spend some free time doing some reading:
(Amazon.com links included)

Good Men Do What Bad Men Dream http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0880486880/o/qid=942044507/sr=8-1/102-3998766-3723254

The Death of Satan : How Americans have lost the Sense of Evil http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0374524866/o/qid=942044653/sr=2-1/102-3998766-3723254

The Evidential Argument from Evil http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0253210283/ref=sim_books/102-3998766-3723254

-Mazzy

 

Seems like we need to debate a definition of evil, before we can determine if it exists or not.

Is it:

A culturally defined level of "badness"

Something a persons actions cause one to become.

Something that causes someone to perform particular actions.

A force caused by some external entity (satan, aliens, NWO mind-control rays)

Something towards which the above force is trying to cause, by causing certain behaviors

Any, all, some, or none of the above?

You can't debate if something exists, without first having a definition, else we are each arguing for and against differint things =)

-Mazzy

------------------
Faster,Better,Cheaper

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

ick 2

 

Tee, hee...I think you mean infamous.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Here's how I see it based upon my beliefs....when God created the universe, He created certain laws within which everything operates. We know about most of these laws probably, as some are physical, biological, or natural, you know the stuff we study about in our sciences. It's all about balance, and an ideal of perfection. The state of perfection or perfect balance within the universe is not really an ideal though, or rather was not meant to be an ideal for us, but a reality. But it can only be a reality if we respect the laws for what they are, and quit trying to manipulate the hell out of everything ourselves. So anyway, there were also spiritual laws that were created to give us a perfect state of spiritual being, just like the natural laws. Well, many of us do not even want to admit to the existence of these spiritual laws, not to mention follow any of them. It's all cause and effect. If a natural balance is disturbed, there is an effect, and as well when a spiritual balance is disturbed. This is sin. We would have never even known how to break the laws if it weren't for us choosing to know the difference. The effects of sin have to manifest somehow. The only way to get rid of the effect is through salvation in Jesus. That is why He suffered and died for us after living a sinless life. Only He can negate the effects of our sin. And this is like science. See, religion and science are NOT mutually exclusive. Satan does exist, and he does tempt us to do evil things, but sometimes tempts us to do things that are not PERCEIVED as evil, but still has the same effect. Many times his plan is to simply hide the truth, and rationalize something that goes against our spiritual laws by convincing us that it is ok, or that there is no such thing as spiritual laws. I get a lot of Jesus-bashing from the fact that these laws exist. Stuff like, "your God is so judgemental and cruel, and just makes up arbitrary rules to glorify Himself". And they're missing the entire point. The rules are not arbitrary for one. The rules if followed would provide perfection for us in our existence. Were created to provide US with the best existence, most peace, most love, most joy, most life. And the consequence of breaking the rules in not punishment; it's more like a physical effect, only it's not physical. It's like the effects of sin have to manifest somehow; that's just the way it works. The only way to escape them is by believing that Jesus died to negate the effects of YOUR sin. Which is exactly what and why He did what He did. Ok, that should be about as clear as mud. It's hard to do this stuff and financial statements at the same time.

------------------
God loves you and so do I!

 

Lori,

This is ware I allways feel I'm missing somthing, mabye you could clarify this for me. How does Just beliveing that Jesus died for our sins and accepting him as our savior deliver us from our sins? Just picking your brain.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born


[This message has been edited by 666 (edited November 10, 1999).]

 

During the life of Jesus Christ there was a Pharisee (ruler of the Jews) named Nicodemus who asked Jesus a similar question, "How can this happen?". Jesus referred to the following story:

At one point during the Exodus, the Isrealites were bitterly complaining against God because of the hardships of their desert life and, as punishment, they were attacked by venoumous serpents. After the people finally acknowledged their sins, God commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent and to raise it up on a pole so that anyone who was bitten could look at it and be healed.

Jesus referred to this story because it illustrates God's power. Only God could heal a deadly bite by using means that seemed absolutely inadequate for the purpose. When responding to Nicodemus, Our Lord pointed out the analogy of the saving power of the bronze serpent lifted up by Moses in the desert and the salvation to be won through His own elevation on the cross.

According to John 3:14-18, Jesus replied to Nicodemus:

"Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

According to Luke 24:44-48, when Jesus appeared to the Disciples after He arose from the dead, He said to them:

"These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled."
Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures. And he said to them, "Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things."

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 10, 1999).]

 

Truestory,

This brings to mind another question, and that is, how many of God's own commandments has he required his people to break? And in this case, why was the graven image a serpent - a symbol of God's most despised adversary? Methinks there's something more going on here than meets the eye...

 

LOL!!!!!! Excellent point there Searcher! *S*
Perhaps Lori could explain this...she is very good at it you know *S* Well, Lori?

 

Searcher and Flash,

You two crack me up. As I'm sure you already know, the commandment which you refer to, in it's totallity, tells us not to make idols for the purpose of "worshipping" other "gods"... Do you really believe that those who "looked at" the bronze statue did so out of "worship" of the bronze statue as a "god"?

Actually, I thought the use of the bronze "serpent" was a pretty cool idea. Although I haven't researched the interpretive symbolism behind this, it might go something like this...

Yes, the serpent is among you, it dwells with you on earth and can cause you pain and death by poison. But, if you repent and believe in God, the serpent becomes nothing. Even looking the serpent straight in the eye cannot harm you if you believe in the healing power of God. Be not afraid of the serpent. Believe in God and the power of God and you will be saved from the serpent.

Anyway, I am wondering if Jesus' words gave either of you a clearer insight into how salvation works?



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 11, 1999).]

 

TS,
Was that suppose to have been from God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?
I don't know...I will research this as well...I'll be back with an answer *S*
Probably not til later..have to jet soon..I go to work in like 20 minutes...

 

Truestory,

It seems to me that Jesus had a different idea of what the serpent represented:

I guess my answer to that question would have to be no.

 

666,

Well, if you don't believe He's the Son of God, then how could He do anything for you? He NEVER goes against your will. It's free will. Oh, now let's just not revisit that topic again please, but that's what it is. Faith is key; that's just how it works. If you don't believe He even exists, then how do you expect Him to do anything for you??????

Flash,

As far as the serpent thing goes, I don't understand. Satan is metaphorically represented as a serpent in the garden, but do you guys REALLY think that Eve was shootin' the shit with a snake? Of all things, really? I'd bet my money on some brilliant, beautiful angel of light. And God did not tell them to worship the bronze image, and they were following His command. So what's the problem? You guys kill me with this "ooh, you're busted!" mentality regarding the Bible. How about this...if you really want to prove that the Bible and Christianity is a big pile of dung, then live the faith. You're half-ass let's pick a phrase out of context and hack it all up method is getting really old. You guys don't even know enough about the Bible or the faith to argue it intelligently. If you really want to know, then quit listening to big-haired preachers, and that fat little faggot Jerry Falwell, and listen to Jesus! He's in your heart, way down deep. He's in there.

------------------
God loves you and so do I!

 

Lori,
Ok..maybe it is getting old to you..let me tell you what...you do not LISTEN to any
proof/argument at all... you do not LISTEN.
You only want to see the things you see..hear the things you hear.
Why the (blank) didn't god just heal them..why did he have them to look at an object?????????
Futher..the last thing I do is listen to
big haired preachers...and Jerry is just a total freak anyway!!!
I have all the truth inside of me I could ever dream about or hope for. I am more than
content...I know who and what is in my heart..I don't think I have to say anymore than that.

 

Lori,

This was actually a point I had made in a message to Corp. Hudson in another thread - no, I don't think that should be taken literally. But the serpent is a symbol for God's most hated adversary, is it not? And why would God punish people by causing them to be bitten by venomous snakes, and then require them to look at a bronze replica of a snake in order to be healed? What was his point? Is this God's way of showing compassion? Once again, I'll pass.

There are many things that I think are a big pile of dung, as you so eloquently put it, but that doesn't mean I'd want to prove it by wallowing in it. In other words, if it looks like dung and smells like dung, I think I'll forgo the taste test - thanks anyway.

There you go again, Lori, making assumptions about people you don't even know. I don't listen to those TV preacher freaks. What makes you think I do? (I am making the assumption here that you were including me in your post, even though you only addressed Flash.)

And what are you trying to say here about homosexuals? Tiassa - are you there? Do you see why I don't go to church? (Sound familiar, Lori?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

)

I also gave Jesus what I considered to be a fair chance. He's been ignoring me for the last few years, so I guess I know where I stand with him.

And have you read your own posts? Do you really think that you're arguing intelligently?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com