The death watch

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by mirror, Jun 11, 2001.

  1. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,616
    discord5 has brought up exactly one of the reasons I support the death penalty. People have been dealing with this attitude without a good end result since Adam and Eve made their trek out of the garden. It's still here and we are still having to deal with it. It is very obvious that no one has come up with the permanet solution to fix or everyone would be doing whatever it was.
    So after all the posting by everyone in this thread I'm not swayed one iota from the initial stand nor do I think anyone else is. So get it over with and eliminate the problem and that one ends. There is no more money spent once the cadavier is gone. It may be more expensive at the start but it does have an end unlike having to support those who will not accept societies standards. Why should we have to pay because someone else will not behave and abide by the rules?
    To my line of thinking, we commonly put our folks oversees in the military in tents. Why should we coddle those in prision? If it's good enough for those serving our country it should be good enough for prisoners. And if they are destructive and want to burn the place down that's fine. Let them do without.
     
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  3. Jagdwuf Registered Member

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    10
    My thoughts on this

    If we have no death penalty or life inprisonment what consequinces are left for offenders? Its like giving them the green lihgt to kill.

    I am strongly for the death penalty. ITs not racist or classist. Its putting to death a person who does not have the right to live.

    When you take another human beings life(intentionally without cause) you loose all of your rights. You are nothing more than a blood thirsty beast.

    The death penalty should be reserved for only the worst offenders(i.e. Mcvaeh). The ideal of the People being against the death penalty is absurd to me.

    People who alrweady comit these crimes are hardly ever put to justice. One thing that is keeping this sort of crime down is the death penalty.

    Like I said before its not inhumane to execute a rightfully deserving person. Its not a matter of revenge its a matter of justice. Their has to be a punsihment for the crime. Every action has a opposite and equal reaction. Anyone who is crazy enough to blow up 200 people or cut their heads off are definetly risks to others.

    It sickens me what people already get away with now when we still have the death penalty(i.e.= The man who killed to 7 people in Ohio (i think) it was somewhere in the US. They had found a knife in his trailer in 1996 and that was a strict violation of porol(sp?) they didnt do anything to him. NOw 7 people are dead. This could have been prevented. If are justice system would just work like its supposed to instead of everything having to be satisfying to liberals.

    ( I think i got the story right )
     
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  5. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Thank You for saying it so well, Jagdwuf!
     
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  7. [f] Registered Senior Member

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    Just something of note, that I don't think anyone has pointed out yet.

    The official cause of death listed on T.M.'s death certificate was Homicide.

    I simply look at it this way.

    murdering a murderer, for murdering......is hypocrytical.

    so i guess i'm against it.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    34,851
    Everything we've won goes away in the end

    A couple of quick notes:
    Wrong. These are the United States of America. Read your Constitution.

    Don't like it? There's always China.

    Who is the judge of cause? Certainly we might put our heads together and say that this or that man most definitely was not instructed by God to kill people, and that he's hearing dangerous voices. After all, we love killing the mentally ill in this country. But the fact remains that we don't know. Every killer has cause.

    Furthermore, what constitutes intent? What about, say, an oil pipeline intentionally ill-maintained, operated with knowledge of potentially lethal faults in order to increase profits. One day the pipeline explodes and the fireball rolls over a mile up the river, consuming children out for a swim. Oh, I take it you didn't mean to kill anyone, sir.

    What about the instant death penalty if you kill a police officer? I bring this up now because our police forces are operating with less and less confidence from the people. After what has taken place in Los Angeles, and with the police shooting people to death for not carrying drugs ... well? One of these days John Public's gonna draw quicker and shoot straighter than John Law. Let's harden it up for a moment:

    * http://www.thegully.com/essays/america/brutocops/000227notguilty.html ... Just so I have it clear ... what was the cause for 41 rounds? They had the wrong guy! "Fear" is not justification for a shooting. Not like this. If I shot a cop for passing his hand near his belt, would I be able to justify myself that I was afraid?

    * http://www.counterpunch.org/nypd.html Need it any more clear cut? You'll note the name Patrick Dorismond

    * http://www.drcnet.org/wol/130.html#dorismon Okay ... you don't get away with this one--Dorismond never saw the badge.

    Why aren't these killers on death row? Perhaps because capital punishment is arbitrary.
    Well, you're not really teaching that killing is wrong. As [f] noted, Homicide.
    Demonstrate that. All statistical trends show that capital punishment has no effect on the violent crime rate.
    Define justice. What is that? Steal a cookie, get sent to your room. Break the cookie jar, get beaten senseless with a strap?
    Says who? Says we? Fine. Ought we not put a little more effort into getting it right? In case you hadn't noticed, states are declaring moratoria on executions until they figure out what went wrong with the evidentiary chain.
    Umm ... that's nature. Look, we choose to react that way. The blind nature of the physical Universe does not apply to human will, or so society would tell it. On the other hand, if you're claiming that it does, should we not, then, figure out what the natural course is, instead of taking an eye for an eye because it makes us feel better?
    Just so we all have it clear, I won't argue with this.
    Yeah, we're really satisfying liberals when we insist that it's a violation of people's rights to not sell guns to the psychotic. Everything? What an irresponsible statement.

    Maybe if we didn't advocate such a primal and violent culture, we could educate the larger part of the dumb, arbitrary murders out of society and deal with those more, ah ... necessary. An eye for a bloody eye leaves everybody blind.
    This is something that worries me about Americans.

    1) The military generally volunteers to go sleep in tents. For the record, I oppose conscription wholeheartedly. You cannot force me to murder anyone for anything. But the fact remains that the soldiers choose the tents in the swamp.

    2) I didn't realize that living up to our Constitutional promises was coddling. Change the Constitution. But be careful how you do; if you undo two of those first ten amendments, it will become possible to put you to death for having sex in a position other than missionary. If you think that's a little extreme for the argument, too bad. One of the brilliant things about the Constitution is that it's not entirely specific. Sure, the founding fathers couldn't imagine an M-16, but at least we, as a society, get to discuss the merits of the damn things before figuring out what we can and can't do about it. Of course, a lot more would get done if we weren't constantly ducking, but that's part of the cost of being an American. So, also, are the rights of the accused, and the rights of the guilty. They are human beings still, and protected by the Supreme Law of the Land.

    I have a couple of questions: Does anybody realize why there was a revolution here? Does anyone care anymore why we shook off the Crown?

    Didn't think so.

    Everything I see here supporting the Death Penalty also makes a firm argument that there was never any reason to shed His Majesty in the first place. We've come so far around the circle that people don't even want what they have. I just can't believe Americans would piss it all away just to satisfy their bloodlust.

    --Tiassa

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  9. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762
    hey all :/

    well
    what a subject.... my eyes are watering from reading thus far

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    tiassa merlijn - great points

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    one thing i have yet to see noted is the jail types-
    why not make murderers and rapists dig and maintain their own vegetable plots
    all non hardcore crims works to breed animals and produce products!
    no work= no food! end of story!
    make jails un escapable! i know i could design one that no one could escape from!
    but who wants to spend the money to do the job rite the first time? no one!(who will)
    if all murder and violent crime is seen as extreem then we would not tollerate it!
    but too many seem to think hitting is normal and thus killing is constuctive.................
    ps-if they are in the act...? shoot em down like the dog they are!
    but dont look for someone to kill! ssshhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeesssssssssss

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    pps i hug trees

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    but if i caught someone breaking into my house or attacking my family you would deffinately need reconstructive surgery!
    but if i didnt catch them? how could i be sure who it was!

    groove on all

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  10. Re: Everything we've won goes away in the end

    Read it

    Not every one reads them the same, as far as I can tell, people now forget what 'militia' meant then & how to, read a sentence, with commas.

    I think they forgot the "Bill of Responsibilities", as a society, we need to work together too, not just be individualists!

    Hopefully

    Not funny anymore
     
  11. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,762
    hey all

    well the saga continues....

    how many people are happy allowing cameras into their lives to try to stop thes type of things?
    maybe more than those who might seek to stop these things?

    giving your authority to others to complete a task you do not have the stomach for is not a constructive or productive way of living.

    NOW THE USA HAS a good reason to secure more oil reserves in the premis of revenge...
    im sure the job will not be done properly in case they need people to test new weapons on.

    IT SEEMS APARENT THAT THE BULK of the nation of islam
    (funny how a religion can be called a nation when it involves different countrys)
    is at war with the USA
    soo... how many countrys in the nation should be bombed flat?

    the truth is that the number of murderers were small and have been killed........
    so all is even!!!... ???
    or is the law of the land not good enough?
    ........think about it!

    the key is satisfaction not equal reaction on an unbiased platform.

    PERSONALY I SEE NO REASON TO LEAVE ANY BUILDING STANDING IN AFGANISTAN!

    BUT THAT WOULD BE THE CASE FOR ALL COUNTRYS AIDING AND ABETTING such terrorist.

    but we all need something to moan about.... so it would seem.

    MY HEART GOES OUT TO ALL THE FAMILYS OF (and) THE VICTIMS...
    and i would hope they find completion in george bush's actions.


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  12. machaon Registered Senior Member

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    733
    The truth of reason vs blind hate...

    I certainly do not condone the extinguishing of life. I do not condone Timothy Mcveighs actions. However, it is crystal clear to me WHY he did what he did. He realized the federal government for what it is. It is the single most dangerous threat to free Americans that has ever existed. I do not think that he needed to destoy an occupied federal building to get that message across, and I am saddened by the pain that the victims families are experiencing. If any of MY family had been in that building I would have dedicated my life to insuring that Timothy Mcveigh died by the states hand or mine. However, no one ever seems to raise the question of WHY he did it. The federal government says the reason he did it is because he was innately evil. I do not think he was evil. I think he just chose the wrong method at the wrong time to get his message across. We are in danger. Don't let the government use Tim Mcveigh as a distraction. It won't be long before you wake up and are being told how to wipe your ass by the in-house federal agent assigned to you. The federal government is very adept at shifting hate and blame away from itself and on to people like Tim Mcveigh. Don't be so easily fooled.
     
  13. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

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    1,014
    If any of your family would have died, I can understand such feelings of frustration and anger that you experience that you would want to kill the offender. Not that I would agree, but I can even imagine that in such a situation have such feelings.
    I believe the state has the obligation to be 'above' that emotional level and make the rational dicision. All things considered, that cannot be any other than not allowing capital punishment. Not in this case, not in any case.

    Merlijn
     

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