The Confederate Flag

Here is an interesting and on topic article published by Australia's national broadcaster ABC.

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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07...with-confederate-flag-in-afghanistan/12476530

Stupid is what stupid does...

 

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if something offends you
that does not give you the right to eradicate it
I sculpt
mostly figurative and almost always nude
Many loonies have complained that my work offended them
and
I really did not care that they were offended
Some have complained to the police
I ain't met a cop (male or female) who did not like my work
so
the complainant actually afforded me the opportunity to converse with someone who liked my work
............................................
If thine eye offend thee
pluck it out

 

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Just to make sure you're not comparing apples to dead slugs in the garden, how many of those sculptures enshrined anti-American, racist hatred?

And of those, how many were intended by local governments and civic foundations to be testaments to a community's values?

 

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0

 

now tell the truth

 

I keep getting hung up on this:

"Not inherently offensive (only symbolically so)" and "objectively pornographic."

A lot of people object to obscurantism in any form, in any and every context, and I've never really understood that. There are plenty of contexts wherein obscurantism is totally inappropriate, sure, but every context? Several years ago, on this forum, there was a thread in which I had to defend Mark Rothko. I didn't really want to, but I felt like I had to because the criticisms were baseless and utterly inane. You don't like Rothko? Fine. But saying his work is garbage, because you think a child--any child--could produce it is ridiculous. Why even bother with such an "argument?" And, even more weird, I got the sense that this hatred of Rothko was inspired more by the fact that some people do like and appreciate it more than anything else.

I'm too tired to elaborate upon how that ties in to the fact that I can't really make a lick of sense of either the above quoted phrases--and I seriously doubt that anyone else can, either--but I'm sure he'll attempt a spirited defense of the phrasing either way.

 

Fine but as other are pointing out, the Confederate flag offends enough people and makes them feel marginalized and excluded from society enough that it shouldn't be placed on government properties as an official endorsement. It's not some small group of nutty people either, it's over 50% of the country that wants this stuff taken down. There are literally infinitely many ways southerners can express pride in whatever they want without picking a symbol with a horrifically bloody history that happens to be a nearly universal favourite for American white supremacists.

My reaction to Mark Rothko some years ago when I first learned about him was like "WTF am I looking at?" There he is proudly standing next to a portrait of two colours like he just painted the Mona Lisa, and the thing sells for millions of dollars. I just passed it off at the time as modern art insanity extrapolated to its natural conclusion, but finally one day I decided to have another look and try to figure this whole thing out. Lo and behold, when I actually zoom in on one of his paintings in high resolution and all this amazing detail suddenly becomes visible, that's when I finally understood why people liked him so much. I'll have to admit though, with all due respect to the African American community in general, I still don't get what's so special about Basquiat.

 

Well, if you haven't achieved any wisdom at your age, it's not likely to ever happen. Guess it's true what they say. 'If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.

And why wasn't it safe?

At the time of the last Census (2016), Victoria’s population was 5.9 million. CSA unique alleged offenders data from April 2015 to March 2018 show that on average over those three years:

• People born in Australia accounted for 64.90% of the Victorian population, and 72.57% of unique alleged offenders (a unique offender rate to population share of 1.1)
  
  
• People born in New Zealand accounted for 1.57% of the Victorian population, and 2.23% of unique alleged offenders (a unique offender rate to population share of 1.4), and
  
  
• People born in Sudan or South Sudan accounted for 0.14% of the Victorian population, and 1% of unique alleged offenders (a unique offender rate to population share of 7).

While people born in Australia and New Zealand were over-represented in the alleged offender population of Victoria, people born in Sudan were over-represented to higher levels.
https://theconversation.com/three-c...n-people-in-victorian-crime-statistics-101308​

Or are you claiming racial discrimination by Australians was the cause of both that disparity in crime rates and your former unsafe neighborhood?

LOL! You have no idea how many ways that is funny. Thanks for that.
I use to be a long-haired hippie who liked the notion of communism and voted Democrat. So "things I was taught" and "still believe" is ignorant. And if you think US colleges teach conservative principles of libertarian freedom and free market capitalism, you're grossly mistaken.

People make themselves unhappy by dwelling on the negative and what they find offensive. I find plenty of things offensive, but unlike them, I lead a happy life. No one can control how others choose to feel, and yes, it is simply a choice. You want their freedom to choose misery to restrict the freedom of others. Well, I guess misery does love company, and I can guess whose company you keep.

LOL! Again, thanks for that. Still gives me a chuckle. You have no idea how much you're telegraphing to me.
The people I defend don't break the law, unlike many of these protesters, looting and committing arson and vandalism.

LOL! False dilemma, as there are many places that are neither home nor have lots of police or security. Even in big cities, police are often minutes away. No idea what world you live in, but it doesn't seem to resemble reality.

Like the violent protests of BLM activists?

Such mental illness is not dependent upon a specific symbol nor even access to a specific type of weapon (hence things like vehicle or acid attacks).

No, I generally ignore your posts because they tend to be such drivel.

If you don't understand the difference between a symbol (like the word "penis") and a representation (like the image of a penis), I've grossly over-estimated your intelligence. No one would call the word "penis" objectively graphic, because symbols are not inherently bad. Even the swastika in not bad in a Hindu context, because symbols rely on their correspondence to what they represent. If you claim the swastika can only represent Nazism, you're dismissing an awful lot of Hindus. Just like claiming the battle flag can only represent slavery dismisses an awful lot of southerners.

We get it. You don't like it, and this is your little tantrum over it. Tough. Life isn't only about things you like, unless you're a spoiled child.

 

Yeah, Rothko really doesn't translate well to 2D replication (books, prints, etc.). I think that's one of the primary obstacles to appreciating his work. For me, Rothko comes closer to certain trends in 20th/21st century music than anyways--particularly, some Polish and Hungarian composers who focus more upon timbre than melody and harmony, and musicians who've subverted models of rhythm and periodicity dominant in Western music well into the 20th century (well, really, still dominant--especially in most "popular" music forms.

There's also this element of Rothko that's like a hyper-focused JMW Turner. Most people "get" Turner, I think--or, at least, they see how his work requires considerable skill and discipline--yet they'll dismiss Rothko because that's not like immediately apparent. And there's always those who think it's "pretentious" or something like that, which could't be further from the truth: for every born-posh sort in art, music, etc., there's an equal number of working-class yobs doing the same. It's just that the latter typically have to have some sort of "day job," as well.

 

Working backwards. And sideways, I guess.

And there it is. You guys seriously need to broaden your palette.

I know what a tantrum is--I'm epileptic. I throw tantrums, or what are functionally equivalent to tantrums, all the time (that's hyperbole, for those blind to nuance): many a complex, focalized seizure assume that form--and I am, often enough, sufficiently conscious and actually forming memories so that I may take note. And that was hardly a tantrum--or an "emotional outburst." No one here is throwing tantrums.

And from the other thread...

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/corona-virus-2019-ncov.162778/page-97#post-3643336

Nope. Review your Ryle or something, because this... resembles schizophrenese.

And we already covered the other senses of the swastika--or rather, I did--in my response to you. Remember?
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/the-confederate-flag.163282/page-10#post-3640768
There's that bit about context?

Try again.

 

Take the p,r and e out of pride and it makes sense.

Of course you are right but I don't care that I am as I have lived a very full life and many of the things I have done and and am still doing would not have happened if I was burdened with wisdom.

I was conservative until I was 40 then I saw just how miserable and mean that side really was and I changed to become a better person and embraced a more sensible approach to free education and health care realising it was much more efficient and beneficial to a nation to make sure it's citizens were all well educated and healthy guaranteeing higher productivity and wealth for all.

Three drug dealers on the block with desperate customers driven to drug use from poor health and poor education.

Have you been arrested for cruelty to animals?

I think I am in a better position to make an imparial judgement.

At least you can see your problem..good for you.

Well go ahead. I am the champion of positive thinking but you must already know that...and I try to make those I come in contact feel better about themselves..look how I have helped you.

Well I had to ...that was my job and in fact the reason I left law was because I was the best and the worst would seek me out until finally I would not let my exceptional skill be used for evil. Although I am very left I support the death penalty for all crimes, well all felonies and many misdemeanors...my utopia is kind fair and intollerent of criminals...under my regime you would never need to carry a gun after five years of concentrated culling.
Every revolution has a reign of terror but it's for the common good ..look how Steel in transformed things coming closer to utopia than anyone to that point..if not for him Siberia would still be undeveloped.

How could I being an old man with very limited life experience..but I like to be open with folk so they can realise what a wonderful person I am.
I hope you saw my latest astronomy photo in the Astronomy section ( the last one on this page http://www.sciforums.com/threads/some-photos.162418/page-12)
as I am very proud of it and want all my friends to see it.
Have fun, try to be compassionate and behave as though there really was a god who cares.
Alex

 

I must admit that the vociferous one, is appearing slightly less vociferous and vocal about "his opinions" the further he is backed into a corner.

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I must go easier on him.

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yes of course... the confederate flag incites violent protest ( Civil war) on both sides...
This is the key issue about this flag is it not?
You do realise that it takes at least two sides to fight a war don't you?

As to the South Sudanese issue you have no idea what you are getting into.
Having personally lived through 4 waves of severely traumatized refugees ( of different nationality) the South Sudanese issue is no different to any group of refugees and asylum seekers wishing to integrate and assimilate into Australian multi culture.

They were not forced into slavery and shipped into Australia, held prisoner to serve the economic, erotic and power desires of their "white supremacist" over lords exemplified and honored by the ongoing popular use of the Confederate flag.
The USA is a multi cultural society, that some wish it not to be... their and Trumps rejection of multi culturalism is heavily symbolized by the confederate flag.
What are your ethnic roots?
I am almost sure you are not considered as indigenous...

 

Considering the Swastika had been used as a symbol of peace for thousands of years before the Third Reich misappropriated it as a false Aryan symbol, please explain how the Confederate flag was used for anything other than a symbol of slavery?

 

I think there is a difference between an individual who for whatever reason wants to display a symbol of treason (if they want a statue of Benedict Arnold in their yard that is their right) and a government funded display on government property.
Why did they ever name military bases after Confederate generals?

 

What's with the Lincoln project?

 

Demanding that others lose their freedom because you don't like what they do is a childish tantrum, and wanting to mobilize the government to get your way is fascism.

Well, there's no accounting for your difficulties with the English language.

Too bad you didn't grasp anything from when you made that point, hence the reiteration.

I know you're defensive, as an Australian, but that just doesn't cut it.
The difference between the Australian and Sudanese percent of the population under 25 is roughly 9%. So if we remove 9% of the Sudanese "alleged offenders", we have 800 remaining. That's still far more disproportionate than for any other population in OZ.

 

A factor you may need to include is that most of the offenders you refer to are born in Australia and may also need to consider that they are just as Australian as any other ethic group that is born in Australia.
They are no longer South Sudanese but have SS ethnic roots.
By using stats in the manner you are doing you are declaring your self to be racist.
It is true that racism also exists in Australia and that statistical abuse is also common.

It was not that long ago that there were issues of youthful Vietnamese gangs, Italian gangs, Greek gangs, Cambodian gangs, Chinese gangs, Croatian and Serbian gangs and so on and guess what, British gangs ( skin heads and sharpies). In fact the British gangs were ( past tense) probably the worst due to their racist bigotry and deluded sense of Anglo white supremacy.

This is not an issue of race but more about 1st generation Australian teenagers that are rebelling against authorities that find comfort in ethnic allegiances ( gangmanship) which allows them to share their malcontent with their parents decisions to integrate and assimilate. An Identity crisis perhaps.

In the USA the issue is more about those that have much generational baggage ( 3rd and 4th generation and other) that is resentful of the historical abuse rendered by a fearful white population that refuses to accept responsibility for the racial conflict that they them selves have created by initially forcing people at gun point to be slaves and then cowardly refusing to accept the consequences.

 

And so what else is new?
The simple fact remains that that the Confederate flag is an inherently very evil symbol, in line with the Swastika, and in spite of the vociferous bluster by racists and gun toting rednecks.