The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Asguard, Jun 4, 2014.

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  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    13,840
    No. Berating, humiliating, condescending rape prevention advice does not help. Applicable, respectful and pertinent rape prevention advice does help - as does training in self defense. Even Tiassa now agrees that some forms of advice can help prevent rape.

    Here's a great program at UNH as an example:
    =====
    Bringing in the Bystander

    Establishing a Community of Responsibility: Bystander Intervention and Sexual Violence©

    This prevention program emphasizes a bystander intervention approach and assumes that everyone has a role to play in ending violence against women. In addition to the prevention goal, the program has a research component which seeks to measure the effectiveness of the prevention program with different constituencies. Participation in this program and research project represents a unique opportunity for members of the UNH community to take on a leadership role in educating themselves on how to stop violence against women on the UNH campus.
    =====

    See? No "it's your fault you were raped." This trains women (and men) to help _other_ people who are either being raped or at risk of being raped.
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    Did this plan to not have contact with me come after you spammed me with three responses in a row a couple of days ago and you were ignored? Aww, are you pouting?

    You do realise that not everything I say here revolves around you, yes?

    The next part of that post, however, did cover you...

    Rape is about sex.. Rape is biological.. Rape is a biological urge to breed.. Rape of men, children and the elderly is just "inappropriate breeding attempts or hybridization"..

    And yes, I am aware that you are trying to deny your own words and own arguments.. Good luck with that venture.

    Now, about that agreement and that pledge you made..

    Stop breaking it.
     
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    No, it came well before you accused me of "abusing you for being a rape victim".

    Please illustrate immediately where I "abused you for being a rape victim".

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...nd-Necessity&p=3206986&viewfull=1#post3206986

    Are you actually a lawyer or councillor of any kind, or is this part of some kind of ruse? I cannot envision even the worst kind of ambulance-chaser behaving in such a manner.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    Why don't you quote the post in full?

    Because you know full well what part does apply to you.

    But if you must know, when you try to shut down a rape victim and silence her from speaking out, it's abuse. When you attempt to sow doubt on whether I was raped or not, and then use that as an attempt to discredit me and then say that my having been raped has nothing to do with a discussion about rape because I dared to disagree with your obscene rape is about sex and rape is about the biological urge to breed arguments, that was abuse. And then you attempted to deny my rape and attempted to silence me about it and because of it again. When you repeatedly attempt to silence someone and demand that they not mentioning it and when you repeatedly attempt to discredit what they experienced it and when you repeatedly dismiss it and when you repeatedly 'minimise' what actually happened and keep trying to silence the victim, because they are a victim, it's abuse.

    Now, if you think I should apologise to you for your attempts to discredit, deny and minimise what I went through and then to insult me and attempt to silence me because of what I went through, the answer is no, I will not. Because that is just the tip of the iceberg of your behaviour in this thread.

    I'm really glad to see how well you keep to your word however.
     
  8. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    772
    So advising potential victims on risk avoidance equates to ignorance of and lack of involvement in the on going process of refining civilization. Can’t possibly chew gum and walk at the same time. While the results of discussing cultural attitudes may have value for future generations, it has little practical value for our current generation of potential victims.

    The difference is that one is a remedial prescription that offers potential relief from the present risks associated with violence in our culture, and the other is merely social commentary with little immediate remedial value by comparison.

    I and others have offered our own similar perspectives, and to our puzzlement, rather than acknowledging their obvious value, you frame them as impediments to social progress and security, and offer no practical alternatives. As for bating, the list I posted was to the contrary, and was in reality a bite on the 72% lure you casted.

    But nobody is representing them as remedies to the perpetration of violence, but rather as ways to reduce the level of its victimhood. And while society as a whole does not condone or encourage violent assault, it still persists because the roots of such behavior are presently beyond the means of regulation, and until it is, like it or not, defensive action will be an essential element in reducing victimhood.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    22,660
    Which potential victims?

    Men, women and children are all potential victims.

    Yet just about all rape prevention strategies are aimed solely and squarely at women. Why do you think that is?

    I'll put it this way.. I'll take your rape prevention advice that you and others keep peddling here seriously when you show me a rape prevention list telling men to dress differently, wear shoes that allow them to run properly, to not talk to men they do not know, to not drink in the presence of men or get drunk around them, to urinate or vomit on their potential rapist (I'll leave out telling the rapist that one is menstruating for obvious reasons), to only have certain length and types of hair styles, to walk with confidence, eyes aimed forward and walking with purpose, to always check behind them for potential rapists, to leave the site of an accident and not get out of the car at the scene of an accident, to walk down the middle of the street, etc..

    The rape prevention strategies you keep peddling is designed to control the behaviour of women. Which is why you won't find one that applies to men.

    And there is no value in placing the onus to not be raped on the victim, which is precisely what the language of rape prevention does.

    And I and others often wondered about why you keep demanding women change to prevent being raped and why you keep treating women as though they are stupid in the advice you keep pushing repeatedly in the most condescending manner and wording possible. Most of all, we wonder why you are placing the onus to not be raped on the victim while you scoff and laugh at the very thought of educating men to not rape..

    When you list ways in which women should behave to avoid being raped, you are only creating the scenario that she will second guess herself and doubt whether people will believe her because she did not follow this set expectation of how she should behave. In other words, you make it worse for the victim. Women aren't stupid. No woman enjoys being raped. Perhaps you should stop peddling rape prevention theories which demand behaviour control for women to suit a particular myth that if women behave as you want them to behave, then it will reduce their chances of being raped. It's total bollocks and when you keep reiterating this expectation and wording it as 'rape prevention', when they are raped, they are less likely to report it.

    Even now.. "Defensive action will be an essential element in reducing victimhood".. Not every woman fights back. Not every woman can fight back. Instead of recognising this, you set this expectation that she should act a certain way or react a certain way. Even the advice you listed earlier for acquaintance rape.. Like it or not it's up to the victim to prevent being a victim? Because that's not placing the onus on the victim to not be raped? I don't know whether you are being deliberately obtuse or you are that type of person who believes that it's up to the victim to not be a victim by acting a certain way. It's like telling a black person they would be less prone to racism if they just acted less black. Honestly, your rape prevention ideology only makes it harder for women to come forward and report being raped.
     
  10. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    772
    Society has already put the onus on the violent perpetrator not to offend, but society is unable to enforce complete compliance, so with this reality in mind, what would you suggest potential victims do to reduce their risk of harm?
    Chant Rape is Bad more often than the rest of society currently does?

    They’re the kind of rules my wife would womansplain to my daughter.

    Until you and Tiassa stop mischaracterizing it as rape advocacy.

    And now you’re upset that advice deals with prevention and the consequences of occurrence? Is their no end to your displeasure?

    As a victim of violent assault myself, I’m asking you, as I’ve asked myself, what could I have done differently to change the outcome of the incident? What precautions might make future incidents more avoidable? It’s not about blame, but reducing the risk of recurrence.

    For a person of wealth maybe, for a person of lesser means there are more practical alternatives.

    Such as:

    1) If not living alone isn’t an option, acquire guard or watch dogs.
    2) An affordable home security system.
    3) A personal alert app for your smartphone.
    4) Personal protection devices such as firearms, pepper spray, or tasers.
    5) Self defense training.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    22,660
    Everyone knows what their limitations are. I think putting set rules to women about how they should behave and calling it "rape prevention" does more harm than good. In fact, I know it does. Because each time a woman is raped, the first thing people think about is what she was doing that led to it. Even you, when you asked me what else I could have done to prevent being raped. You immediately place the onus on me to not be raped and it becomes my responsibility. And frankly, it's kind of fucked up.

    You mean advice. See, as your links themselves show, there is no rape prevention because no one can know who is going to rape them.
    In other words, you don't understand the meaning of "no".

    I have asked you to stop repeatedly and you are refusing to stop. Again, this does more harm to me than good. So please stop.

    My displeasure, as you so charmingly put it, is at the attempts by people like you to control the behaviour of women under the guise of rape prevention. You do get that, right?

    And you are free to ask yourself that.

    You have no right to make me feel as though I have failed myself for being raped, which is exactly what you and others have been doing repeatedly in this thread, even after being asked to stop multiple times and even after being told it was completely unwelcome. And instead of respecting my requests that you stop, you kept going and now you are saying that you will not stop until I give in to what you want.

    I happen to be a person of wealth. Does that mean you think women who have money should be hiring guards in their homes and simply not sleeping just in case?

    See, once again, you place the responsibility on me to have not been raped. Can you please cease and desist?

    Oh, so these are your practical alternatives?

    1) I have a dog.. Since my rapist is someone known to my family and my dog, the dog did not bark.
    2) I have a very good home security system. It did nothing to stop him from accessing my home and my inside my home as I slept.
    3) Which would have done what as I slept? You think women should be like dogs and be tagged so we can be monitored at all times? Do you think women should sleep with their smartphones in their hands at all times? Is there ever a time where women can not have a phone with her, in case she is raped? No, really, this is a solution for you? Because this isn't controlling, is it? I suppose the first thing a woman should be doing while she is being attacked is to tell him to hold up a second as she needs to get her smart phone, find the app and press the button.
    4) All of which are illegal in my country. Perhaps I should sleep with a butcher knife under my pillow at all times? Because that's not controlling how I live or controlling my behaviour and creating an unsafe and terrifying home environment for my children and myself, is it?
    5) Which did sweet fuck all.

    And pray tell, if a woman does not employ what you seem to believe are these "practical" methods, do you think she is more likely to be raped or less likely to be raped? Will it stop the man she lives with from raping her? Do you tell your wife and daughter that they should always carry a weapon on them while they are at home, just in case? Just so you know, your rape prevention links all deal with the certainty of what do when and after you are raped. Because even they state, it is outside of our control.

    As I noted before:

    I'll put it this way.. I'll take your rape prevention advice that you and others keep peddling here seriously when you show me a rape prevention list telling men to dress differently, wear shoes that allow them to run properly, to not talk to men they do not know, to not drink in the presence of men or get drunk around them, to urinate or vomit on their potential rapist (I'll leave out telling the rapist that one is menstruating for obvious reasons), to only have certain length and types of hair styles, to walk with confidence, eyes aimed forward and walking with purpose, to always check behind them for potential rapists, to leave the site of an accident and not get out of the car at the scene of an accident, to walk down the middle of the street, etc..

    The rape prevention strategies you keep peddling is designed to control the behaviour of women. Which is why you won't find one that applies to men.

    Until then, stop.
     
  12. Capracus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    772
    Rules? I thought it was advice.

    Where in this entire thread has anyone suggested that a woman in the circumstance you described yourself in deserved to be sexually assaulted. Are you really that dense not to realize that the actions of all parties involved in any incident share some responsibility for its outcome, regardless of their intentions?

    I used rules in response to your earlier designation as such, and you repeated it at the beginning of this post. If you take steps to avoid an assault, you’ve prevented one.

    You’re equating a discussion about sexual assault to the act of perpetrating one? You’ve got to be kidding. Then you’ve got the temerity to continually interject your alleged rape experience in support of your philosophical positions in this thread and then insist that others have no right to express contrasting positions? Is this supposed to pass for rational behavior in a discussion forum?

    Remember, we’re all rape prevention advocates. Advocates don’t impose their will on others, they suggest a course of action and you can either accept it or not. Is your will so weak that mere suggestion is sufficient to wrest control your behavior?

    If you can’t stomach the content necessary to facilitate a discussion in part dedicated to the topic of rape prevention advocacy, then you best not participate in it. No one is going out of their way to intentionally offend you, it’s just inevitable that this specific content will continue to surface in the natural course of the discussion.

    The whole e point of security measures are so you can sleep at night, and if hiring guards is a practical solution considering your means, then it would reasonable to do so.

    Are you feeling guilt over some sense of not providing adequate security? Are you possibly coming to the realization that you might have some control in regards to the recurrence of such an incident?

    Properly trained guard and watch dogs will alert you regardless of an intruders familiarity.

    That seems to be a bit of a contradiction, that you have a very good system that failed to alert you.

    Many elderly individuals wear personal alert devices in case of unattended emergencies. My wife and daughter both sleep with their smartphones for the purpose of wake alarms and easy access for communication. And used in conjunction with dogs and a functional security system, there would be ample time to hit the panic button, especially if it were the default screen setting.

    I guess your government has tied your hands in regards to personal protection devices. Go lobby for their legalization.

    If your self defense skills were inadequate, strive to improve them.

    Every woman or man has to assess their own relative risk. If my wife and daughter were to consider me such a risk, then it would be prudent for them to take relevant precautions. My wife complains that she doesn’t get enough anyway, so I might be the one needing to take defensive action.

    Not true, many of the prevention techniques that were linked would have equal value for men as well, but because the vast majority of rape victims are women, many were tailored to address the associated habits of women. Basically though, the preventative measures regarding violent assault are the same for both men and woman, which are essentially awareness and avoidance of hazardous situations and reasonably maximizing one’s deterrence and self defense capabilities.
     
  13. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    3,910
    Make prostitution legal?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Canada
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I did not quote the post in any limited fashion; this is another example of weasel wording by you.

    Indeed I do. Your first link, if that was what it was intended to be, is broken. Here is the pertinent quote:

    And that is entirely correct. I do not know you. I do not know your experiences. I do not know much of anything about you with any real certainty, and I do not wish to know. Tiassa feels that the experiences of a victim place her or him a 'valence' closer to the issue. That might be so, but it is my position that it confers nothing to the discussion of the concepts. It has nothing to do with the issues I was attempting to discuss pages and pages ago until you had another grande mal freakout, which occurred in the first few pages.

    Bullshit? Your claims in the sentence above regarding your 'silencing' and 'abuse' are bullshit. You were neither silenced, nor abused. It is a classic display of your inequity with ethics and language to claim that you were. The link you attempt to cram into this debate refers to negative responses to speaking out, not null ones. Your meter on such commentary has run out, and further comments of this nature will simply not be addressed.

    [hr][/hr]

    Now what has become the main issue.

    I wouldn't expect you to apologize for anything at all, really, since you seem to have neither honour, nor honesty, nor integrity. I would expect any other normal person to apologise for calling me a 'rape advocate' but, again, you appear to lack the higher facilities of integrity that would normally encourage such a choice. For example: you have deliberately misrepresented what the apology in all rights is actually about, choosing instead to pretend that I have demanded an apology for "attempt[ing] to discredit, deny and minimise what [you] went through". This is classic thread lawyering - it is utterly clear what the apology should be rendered for - and so I am not particularly hopeful that you will suddenly locate your seemingly discarded sense of ethics.

    That is irrelevant, so long as you deliberately maintain a veil of fabrication over my reputation. And again, no weasel wording: I did not "give my word", not that I expect you would necessarily understand or honour such a concept.

    If you have any relevant contributions to make, please don't hesitate to post them.
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    22,660
    They read likes rules.. Repeated over and over again.

    Are you thick?

    Because as has been explained repeatedly that the constant reminder of the "advice" or rules that women should be following to prevent being raped sets the tone that if she fails, then she somehow deserves it. Provided evidence of how and why this happens. So why are you still going on and on about it, asking me what I thought I should or could have done different to prevent it and then listing advice of what you feel I could or another woman could have done to prevent being raped in such circumstances?

    And if one does not? Then what?

    Once again, just so you get it.. When you have this expectation that women prevent themselves from being raped, and she is raped, then she feels as though she has failed to prevent what ends up happening to her. It makes her feel guilty, ashamed, and somehow even complicit.

    So once more, can you please stop insisting on rape prevention ideology.

    Let me explain something to you, because you are either being deliberately obtuse or perhaps you really are an arsehole.

    When someone tells you they have been raped, you don't then turn around and ask them if they had thought in hindsight what else they could have done to have prevented themselves from being raped. Do you have any idea of what that does? Any at all? I asked you to stop repeatedly and you blatantly refuse to and instead, decide to foist even more advice on what you believe I could have done to prevent my own rape. Perhaps you are incapable of not trying to lecture me or mansplain what you think I should be doing to not be raped, but your advice and your commentary in regards to rape prevention is wholly unwelcome. And instead of stopping, you have decided to try to shame me about my apparent lack of rape prevention strategies.

    Is that clear enough for you?

    And when someone tells you to stop, you stop.

    Asking me if my will is so weak because I don't buy into your rape prevention advocacy to the point where you suggest I keep a gun in my house? No, really, what kind of sick and twisted little man are you? Because this isn't you trying to make me feel even more guilty about what happened to me? What? Because I don't do what you think I should be doing or because I refuse to take note of what you believe I should be doing, I am weak willed?

    Oh really. So further attempt to silence me, make me out to be weak because I won't do or accept what you say. What was it that you said? You aren't going to stop until I agree with you or something?

    You were asked to stop, and it was explained to you. Instead of respecting that request, you pushed further, listed what you feel would have been appropriate to have stopped me from being raped and then have the cheek to be offended when I explain to you just how your condescending and offensive manner is coming across.. See, men like you is why women feel ashamed to come forward, because you are so creepy that you feel you know better than they do about what is affecting them, so much so that you decide to mansplain what they should have really been doing to prevent being raped.

    Unbelievable.

    Are you shitting me?

    What kind of twisted man are you?

    No dumbass, I am not feeling guilty because you don't think I lived up to the rape prevention ideal.
    Yes, because it's practical to have trained guard dogs patrolling my suburban back yard as rape prevention.
    Here's the part you haven't quite grasped yet. The rape prevention advocacy you have been mansplaining to me would not have stopped my rape. Why? Because it only deals with and covers stranger rape. If I was to adhere to the standards you expect of women, then I would simply withdraw completely from society and never ever speak to or have anything to do with any males again.

    I'm sorry, are you saying your wife and daughter sleep with their phones?

    Okay then.. I can sort of see why they would.

    No, I don't sleep with my phone. I don't think I should be made to sleep with my phone. In fact, I don't know anyone who sleeps with their phones. Frankly, it's kind of weird that they do that.

    Why should I keep weapons in my home?

    Are you aware that having weapons is more likely to result in those weapons being used against the victim? Why would you advocate women arm themselves in such a way when it is more than likely going to result in their being further harmed or endangered?

    Are you serious?

    Because right now, you are going out of your way to shame me for not having prevented being raped.

    I am going to ask you one last time. Stop.

    Frankly, after this last conversation with you, I get that you're that type to lecture women and treat rape to be that kind of a joke, but you're not a very funny man. Well, the only people who would find you funny would be those who thinks women should be made to feel guilty or ashamed for having been raped.

    [HR][/HR]

    You cut out half of the post.. Twice, even after I pointed out what did apply to you. Why did you do that?

    Firstly, you know full well who I am just as I know full well who you are and we know about each other's families. I even know what kind of funny college comedy videos you like because you used to send them to me all the time. Perhaps you have lied, well, considering how dishonest you are in the general forum, that may very well be the case. But that does not mean that I have.

    Secondly, attempting to discredit what someone went through, attempting to deny it even happened because it does not fit into your rape is about sex and about biology hypothesis and then insulting me because I dared to contradict your pathetically incorrect hypothesis with not only my experience which clearly demonstrates you are wrong, but with countless studies and papers which all clearly contradict you, it has everything to do with the issues you were attempting to discuss. When you bring rape down to being just about sex, wanting sex or having a biological urge to breed, as you repeatedly asserted as your home grown and totally unsubstantiated hypothesis, you reduce rape to being a non-issue. After all, it's just about sex. And you also provide the perfect excuse for the rapist and you directly place the onus on the victim to not be raped. As if it is just about sex or the biological urge to breed, then the onus shifts to her to not be attractive to her rapist. Whether you want to admit it or not, that is what happens.

    Really, so when you suggested I stopped talking because of what I had experienced and told me I had no place in this thread, what were you doing exactly?

    I mean I get it, you are that type to spout bullshit and then when caught and cornered about your behaviour, you deny you even did it.

    When you reduce rape to being just about sex and a biological urge to breed, when you openly and deliberately support and encourage those who defend mass murderers who killed because they felt they were denied the women they feel they deserved, when you openly and deliberately support rape prevention ideology that ties in directly to rape being just about sex and which then places the onus on the woman to not be raped, then you are a rape advocate and rape apologist. When you start pondering if the right term is even "rape" and then try to reduce it to be something else, you are a rape apologist. When you minimise rape and compare it to a moose humping a knot in a tree to get off and compare it to rape as being just about sex because the rapist has that urge, then you are a rape apologist and a rape advocate.

    Is that clear enough for you?

    This is why I will not apologise to you. I don't apologise to people who make excuses for rape.

    You are right. You didn't give your word. Well even if you had, you word is worth shit anyway since we all know just how much of a dishonest hack you are. You had a "plan". You don't do well with plans, do you?

    Perhaps you should write it down and keep reminding yourself of it. Make it an exercise. I understand it will take you outside of your comfort zone and change is hard for you, but do try.
     
  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    A lie.

    Neither does it mean you have been honest; given your behaviour on this forum, I should actually be less likely to believe you about anything. Notwithstanding, I select neither position: I have no reason to believe or disbelieve you, and the issue is not relevant to any such discussion.

    Neither is the above a faithful representation of anything that has gone on here. This illustrates the inapplicability of mentioning it.

    Please support the above accusation.

    Deliberately false representation.

    This is slander.

    Rather, it seems you will not apologise because you have no integrity or intellectual responsibility. I imagine this is behind your probably deliberate bait-and-switching.

    Now, do you have anything meaningful and verifiable to contribute to this thread? Such a contribution would begin with a faithful and honest representation of the points raised earlier, which is why I do not worry that you will be able to raise any legitimate intellectual counterarguments.
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    22,660
    My comment in full:

    You quote it and take it out of context here:

    I correct you and remind you of what did apply to you and quote the part that applied to you:

    You respond and once again take my comments to you out of context and completely ignore the fact that I corrected your mistake and provided you with the proper context and what did apply to you:

    Are you going to try to deny your own words again?

    It is very much relevant to this discussion. It is on topic. This very thread came out of another thread that did discuss it and it is mentioned in the OP. Perhaps next time you should read the OP, the links of where it came from to understand the context and the subject matter before jumping in and going completely out of your depth with your hack of a claim that rape is about sex and the biological urge to breed after openly admitting that you have never really studied "rape" in another thread.

    Still denying your own words and arguments?

    I did. Earlier. Perhaps you should click on the links provided instead of once again trying to lie and deny your own words.

    If you are incapable of recognising what an embedded link looks like, it is the different coloured text, usually underlined and if you mouse your mouse cursor over it, you get a little pointing hand.

    Still going to deny your own arguments again? Doesn't that get old? Let me guess, you're going to deny your arguments about how rape is about sex and your comparing a moose humping a tree because it needs to get off to rape and your repeated insistence that it is about a biological urge to reproduce?
    It's not slanderous if it is the truth.

    I am not the one trying to deny my arguments in this thread and about rape GeoffP. You are. Stop projecting yourself onto others. Take ownership of what you argued and stop being such a coward in trying to lie about it now. It's too late for that now, old man. You dug that hole.

    But I did. However as we know from your past behaviour, you are too stupid and dishonest to recognise it.. Well perhaps you are a tad too busy trying to dig yourself out of the hole you jumped into and you now have to lie to try to get out of it...:shrug:

    Let us know when you decide to actually honestly debate the subject. In fact, why don't you get back to me when you decide to be honest. In the meantime, I'll really enjoy the break and peace and quiet of no contact from you!

    Then again, seeing as you are the guy who altered quotes after they are quoted in full, to add in your personal context and paint it to be what it is not, I won't be holding my breath. I mean, you're doing it again, so any hope that you might be honest is probably a pipe dream. But I live in hope. Consider it a challenge. Post honestly without misrepresenting and altering people's quotes and posting them out of context. Go on, you can do it. Or adhere to your plan.
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    13,840
    On the other hand this is sort of fun to watch, if pointless. It reminds me of a Monty Python sketch sometimes.

    Tiassa: I demand you people apologize to Bells!
    Geoff: I didn't say anything bad to Bells, that lying sack of shit!
    Bells: I demand an apology for that attack, you sick and twisted little man!
    Geoff: No, and apologize to ME for calling me a sick and twisted little man, you dishonest, cheating liar!
    Bells: Never! I will never apologize to someone who probably wants to rape his own daughter!
    Geoff: You better apologize or I will never talk to you again!
    Bells: Good! And I will never talk to YOU again.
    Geoff: Now APOLOGIZE!
    Bells: I will never apologize, you jerk, until you can have a fucking CIVILIZED DISCUSSION! Asshole.

    (repeat, substitute other names for Geoff)
     
  19. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    In Soviet Russia...

    May I recommend a refresher bout of English?

    Actually, this all springs from your mistake. As in, you backtracked your own comments. And then, later in this very post, you take up the same position about "abuse" again regarding me.

    What exactly did I deny? I even went and got the post for you.

    In what way is it relevant to my comments at all? Why does whatever your personal history entails matter?

    I don't deny them in any way. Neither of those posts supports your claim that I somehow 'abused' you. Please support your accusation that I abused you for being assaulted. Thankyou.

    It is not my fault that you don't know how to make a link, Bells.

    Please cite where I say that rape is only about sex. Like you say: make an effort to represent the argument accurately, please. Thanks.

    It's not the truth, and therefore slander.

    Just everyone else's, as standard. I'll take it that you actually do have no concrete contributions to make to the thread, since you can't even be bothered to actually read my arguments. As standard.

    Speaking of standards, how's that mod protection working out for you? And you call me cowardly....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  20. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Hope springs eternal, billvon.
     
  21. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,166
    Really... Might as well give it up people. Rationality doesn't cut it on this topic. Period. Full stop.

    The old cliche about the good feeling associated with ceasing to beat your head against a brick wall comes to mind.
     
  22. Capracus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    772
    But that’s how life in general works, the lessons learned from failure and tragedy are the foundation of future success. Not everyone is possessed with equal capabilities in regards to physical strength, intelligence, mental integrity, and technical knowledge and skill. The nature of your life experiences are to a large extent determined by the value of such qualities. So for every adverse situation encountered, its outcome will be to some extent determined by the quality of application of an individuals capability set. Improve the value of capability and its application and improved outcomes would be expected to follow.

    You provided no such evidence, only subjective opinion regarding the lack of effectiveness of personal safety strategies.

    Like I mentioned above, that’s how life works. You experience hardship, you hopefully make a reasonable assessment of the event, and then use the acquired insight to lessen the chance of recurrence.

    Why would I stop advocating something I believe is beneficial to me, my family and my society?

    I know a woman who was raped repeatedly as a child, and she is fully aware of the fact that her ignorance of its appropriateness and what she should have done to stop it contributed to its continuation. She’s often lamented that she’d lacked the knowledge to stop it. I don’t expect all children or adults to possess the wherewithal to avoid such victimhood, I can only hope that victims and potential victims can learn from such tragedy and better prepare themselves to reduce the risk of future victimhood.

    Listing personal protection devices such as firearms, pepper spray and tasers that are relatively common and legal in my country makes me sick and twisted? Just like my sick and twisted Vice President I suppose. Funny how presenting an option of mostly non-lethal devices translates to gun advocacy, like I’m supposed to know your personal preferences.

    I can’t control how you react to what most would consider inoffensive information posted in this thread or anywhere else in this forum, but if you do find it offensive, you have the option of not continuing to look at it. You cant’ expect the rest of this community to censor their legitimate views for the protection of your apparently fragile sensibilities.

    If participants in this thread continue to denigrate the value of reasonable personal safety advice, I will continue to advocate for it. It’s why we’re all here in the first place, to debate the merits of this very issue. Essentially if everyone agreed with me, there’d be no reason to continue the debate. And would you please stop trying to make this entire discussion solely about you. Believe it or not we all have a personal stake in these issues.

    Like I mentioned above, this issue isn’t just about you, and you need to give up the pretense that it is, or that you speak for all women and victims of violence. If you don’t have the emotional composure to engage is such discussion I suggest you don’t try. Additionally you need to recognize that while others may be offended by your philosophical position, they don’t insist that you refrain from expressing it. You think some reciprocity might be in order?

    I know of countless suburban homes with dogs of various breeds and numbers, indoors and out. So why would it be any less practical in your situation?

    You didn’t effectively employ it so how can you assert it wouldn’t have made a difference?

    Here, get unweirded:

    Getting-in-Bed-with-Gadgets

    Snooze with your cellphone? You’re not alone

    Turn Your Smart Phone Into a Home Security System

    If you have opportunity to arm yourself then the chances of that weapon being used against you are slim. I’m not a fan of firearms myself, but I do carry pepper spay which can be an effective equalizer when deployable.

    If it were my wife, daughter, sister or mother I would advise them similarly, not with intent to blame or shame, but to lessen the chance of a repeated tragedy. And I can assure you they wouldn’t be offended in the least by such advice.
     
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Yeh but... !

    I know, I know. But look: Tiassa backed down off that other thing, above. He saw what I was saying. It's not exactly rapprochement - I suspect he still calls me a "rape advocate", which is utterly heinous and yet, sort of normal on SF, nowadays - but it is something, isn't it? Perhaps Bells can be reached, too? I mean, sure, I doubt it. It's just that it seems like something.

    Or maybe it's all just a Pavlovian experiment with infrequent reward - you know, where you ring the bell and give the dog the food on an intermittent basis rather than every time. Apparently it's very effective in maintaining the response, because it has the dog thinking "is this the time that I get rewarded? No. Wait, the bell's on again! Is this the time that I get rewarded?" and so on. I'm given to understand that this is the same approach that gets gamblers to gamble.

    The other corollary of this is that without a 'win' or even a guarded peace Bells is probably going to refer to this thread later on as an example of your or my purest evil. It'll be something like "Oh yeah? Well you sure didn't seem to mind eating babies before!"

    There are more interesting issues. For example, is she doing it just out of malice, meaning that she does indeed realise what she's saying and is deliberately twisting things around, or ignorance, in which case she doesn't remember what she's said earlier and so reverts to whatever position she holds at the moment, or at the start of the thread. I'd be interested in debating that.
     
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