The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Asguard, Jun 4, 2014.

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  1. Bells Staff Member

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    An apology for what? For being abused for being a rape victim?

    I don't go for popular movements. Certainly not popular movements that give people who bend over backwards to apologise and excuse the behaviour of rapists and who place the onus on the victim to not be raped.. movements that exist solely because of who it is they are arguing against.

    Now, you are certainly free to demand the apology. I am free to not give it.
     
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  3. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not demanding anything. See, you're already starting with me. I clearly stated I also think you owe them an apology. The way I would demand that is to say, "I demand an apology."

    See the difference?

    ...and the reason for the apology? Are you serious? You seriously don't know understand why? Seriously? No, I mean for real????
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    No, I will not apologise for their behaviour and the things they have said because of who it is they were arguing against and mostly, because what they said to me in this thread was so offensive, that it turned my stomach.

    Their feelings are hurt that their rape is biological and about sex, blaming women for misogyny, making every excuse under the sun for rape, making arguments about how women should simply just prevent their rape by dressing differently, acting differently, hell, one even said that women should read the signs, whatever they may be, and not marry someone who may rape them in the future, was seen as being advocacy for rape? Tough luck. If they didn't want to be accused or labeled as such, they should simply have not argued in a way that was so disgusting that had it not been aimed towards me, they would have been moderated severely. See, I am meant to have a thick skin and meant to let it flow over my back like I was a duck. But I sure as hell will not apologise to them for what they did to me in this thread. Because when it comes down to supporting a repulsive argument simply because of who it is they are arguing against and stating so openly, then they have no right to make any demands.

    I hope I have made myself clear enough for you and the rest of the cronies? If you want to keep supporting people who abuse and harass rape victims, then knock yourself out. Just don't expect to be apologised to when you do it. Clear enough?
     
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  7. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    I am not asking you to apologize for their behavior, I am asking you to apologize for YOUR behavior.
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    And what behaviour would that be?

    What? I'm sorry, am I supposed to bow my head and cower when abused and accused of using being a victim of rape to my benefit on this forum? No, really, you think I should apologise for that? Or do you think I should apologise to the one who called me a vulture and then harangued me and went on and on at me because my rapist was not being sent to prison and questioning how I am a lawyer and why didn't I do something about it? Or do you think I should apologise to the dolt who went on and on for weeks declaring that rape is just about sex and how male/male rape, raping children and the elderly was just "inappropriate breeding attempts or hybridization"? Or should I apologise to the rape apologists who went on and on for so long about rape prevention and listing all the ways in which the onus is on the woman to not be raped? Or should I apologise for the one who waxed the lyrical about a mass murderer and his misogyny and blamed women for it?

    So which one should I apologise for because I dared to respond to such obscene arguments? No, really, what behaviour do you find more offensive? The above? Or my disgust at the above?

    Let me repeat it to you, Motor Daddy, so it sinks into your skull. I will not apologise for their behaviour, nor for my disgust at their behaviour.
     
  9. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

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    To be fair... her behavior is pretty well warranted. She has been accused of everything from asking to be raped to enjoying being raped to supposedly saying that rape prevention is a bad thing and should be abolished... I don't blame her one bit for being defensive and/or hostile... these kinds of accusations would never be allowed in a face-to-face conversation... but behind the veil of the internet, people feel that they can get away with anything, so they become emboldened to make such blatantly misleading statements, knowing that in the end, there is nothing that can/will be done about it.

    *shrugs* Such is the state of the world... a failing in basic human dignity.
     
  10. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    Again, I am not asking you to apologize for their behavior. You don't comprehend stuff, do you?
     
  11. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    Being accused of something is different than accusing someone. When you are accused it is someone else that is doing the accusing. When you accuse it is YOU that is doing the accusing.

    I am asking Bells to apologize for the accusing she did. That has nothing to do with her being accused. She doesn't get to behave badly because of what somebody else says to her. She is responsible for her own actions, not GeoffP's actions, or Balerion's actions, or Trooper's actions. Bells is responsible for Bells, and Bells apologizes for Bells. See how that works?

    That's why the apology would be worded something like, "I'm sorry, GeoffP, for the labels I labeled you that I know was not who you are, and that I said that out of anger."

    The apology would not look like, "I'm sorry you're such an asshole, GeoffP." That's not how apologies work.
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    And you still don't get it.

    I am not the one who should be apologising.

    As for the labels. They were not said out of anger. When someone goes to such lengths to defend rapists and to attack a rape victim, then by every definition, that person is a rape apologist. Do you see how that works?

    Do you comprehend that stuff?:shrug:
     
  13. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    ...and after apologizing, Bells, I would personally like to see you relieve yourself of your Mod duties, because you are not a competent Mod, by any stretch of the imagination.

    Same goes for Tiassa!

    ...and Trippy too!
     
  14. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    You're just plain full of shit!
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Mod Hat — No more

    Mod Hat — No more

    Since apologies are being so vociferously demanded, I have decided to back those calls with the weight of authority.

    There are multiple members in this thread who have gone so far as to accuse a rape survivor of exploiting tragedy to push an agenda.

    And now there are even calls for that person to apologize to some of those who have.

    Very well: All members who have made this accusation have exactly twenty-four hours to apologize for their disgusting conduct.

    Without those apologies, consequences will follow. Not checking in today will not be granted as a defense for this failure, as such accusations should never have been posted in the first place.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    I would suggest you take the axe you obviously wish to grind with the staff, if your record is anything to go by, and take it elsewhere.

    You are in absolutely no position or situation to be making any demands from me or any member of staff on this site. I have told you repeatedly now that I would not be apologising to those certain individuals in this thread after how they have behaved. What part of no don't you quite understand that you need to keep pushing?
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I know this is the Internet, but a quick reality check here -

    The bottom line is that, if people such as yourself succeed in denigrating, mocking and diminishing rape prevention, more women will be raped. THAT is the real world implication of your arguments. Are you really sure that's the side you want to be on?

    Maybe it is; maybe you consider your agenda so important that the additional rapes are don't-cares for you. But for many women, being raped is definitely not a don't-care - and they may respond somewhat angrily to your screeds.
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    (chortle!)

    You call that a "reality check"?

    I'm happy to stand on the side that rejects Infinite Prevention Advice that is designed to address a slender minority of rapes, deployed in lieu of actually discussing more effective address of the rape phenomenon, and in some cases specifically rejects prevention advice that addresses the overwhelming majority of rapes.

    I'm comfortable with my position.
     
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    A reality check for you:

    The actual bottom line is that when you are intent on placing the onus on women to not be raped by applying rape prevention as you have all been, then women who are raped end up feeling as though they have done something wrong and are somehow to blame for what happened to them.

    And finally...


    Perhaps you should start considering what side you wish to be on.
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. That's what's on the other side of your computer screen.
    1) It's not "infinite prevention"; that would be a strawman argument.
    2) If you are really proud of only enabling a "slender minority" of women to be raped - well, again, they might not be so happy about your position.
    Nope, I do not. And if you are now saying that rape prevention advice is good - excellent! With an attitude like that, the incidence of rape can be reduced.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Easy. I am on the side that tries to prevent rape. Despite what you say on here, I have no doubt that in the real world you are on the same side I am.
     
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    What the what now?

    I hate to break the plan not to have any contact with you, but at no time did I "abuse you for being a rape victim". That is an. Utter. Lie. But that's your modus.

    Pathetic.
     
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    So you think berating, humiliating, condescending rape prevention advice and keep telling us how it's just common sense, such as 'just don't marry a man who will rape you' prevents rape? You think that is helpful?

    See, the type of advice you advocate is part of the reasons why so many women do not report being raped. Because if they somehow failed to adhere to these various rules, which range from walking down the middle of the road to breaking the law and leaving the scene of an accident to don't drink, don't dress a certain way, don't talk to guys, don't go out, and they are raped, then they feel as though they are responsible and they feel guilty and ashamed as a result. And then the doubt sets in.. Such as who will believe them because they were drunk when they were raped? Why would the police believe them because they must have invited it.. What you advocate is further control of women, from what we eat and drink, to what we wear, to when and how we go out and with whom, to how and where we have sex and with whom..

    Take a very very good and hard look at this and you might just understand where I am coming from:

    This may render her uninterested in what you have to say. Victims of rape are familiar with having their ideas, experiences, feelings and positions on rape pushed aside or argued away. So when you reduce rape to a game that you must win—a rational argument that seeks to carefully discredit a woman's position on rape—just know that she may have heard those kinds of arguments before. From her rapist.

    You want to prevent rapes? Then stop placing the onus on women to not be raped and place the onus on rapists to not rape. We don't need you to mansplain how you think women should behave to not be raped.

    But when women are constantly told about the rape prevention strategies that they’re supposed to follow, they’re sent a clear message: It’s their responsibility to avoid becoming a victim, and if they fail at that task, it must be their fault. If you’re a rape victim who keeps an anti-rape checklist in your head, it’s all too easy to assume that there must have been something you should have done differently before your consent was violated. That attitude is exactly what leads society as a whole to blame survivors — instead of placing the blame squarely where it belongs, with the perpetrators of the crime.

    You may think you are doing good. But your attitude does way more damage in the short and long term.
     
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