The Big Bang and Magnetic fields

dumbest man on earth

Because Brucep is a sane and valued member of this forum who normally makes sense and you are acting like a horse's backside?

What paddoboy posted is a brief but cogent synopsis of how the Universe began. Our observations and our high energy physics has confirmed every word of that WIKI quote. And while it may not be carved in stone tablets, that, to the best of our knowledge, is the truth. We are even now finding polarized light in the CMB, if computers can do for it what they have done for microlensing(allowing us to see where the Dark Matter is)it may become a telescope to see even closer to the BB, especially clumps of higher density plasma and even supermassive Black Holes(plasma makes holes just like matter and it was really, really dense early on)or their seeds. What we have learned in just the last few decades most laymen just would not believe(as demonstrated by the mess).

Strangely, the Universe itself is acting like a huge magnifying glass in this effort. The CMB was released when the Universe was only about 380,000 years after the BB, when the Universe was quite big, but much smaller than the projection(the CMB)which is spread out across the whole sphere that represents 13.8 billion years ago, it's the biggest thing in the Universe. All the little differences that were originally released are magnified by many orders of magnitude. So if they can do it, it may amaze us in the detail received.

Grumpy

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If you didn't have an agenda, you would see all queries answered.
Secondly, if you were really honestly interested, you would google yourself and check out reputable references.

Reputable people, certainly not anyone pushing a defunct model that has already failed peer review dmoe/rivers.

You are correct. You have added nothing other then to ask questions that have already been answered, but fail to suit your agenda.

You are obviously confusing issues. Perhaps one handle would alleviate that symptom.


Now, just on the off chance I am wrong, and yes, there is a non zero possibility I am wrong, if you really want answers, you know what to do.

Once again, just for your information, I state the accepted mainstream position, because to my laymans brain, it makes the most sense.
My rehashing and parroting is accepted science in this day and age, and as I have also stated, I doubt whether your rivers handle can ever accept that, due to his fanatical anti mainstream bias


All scientists and laymen alike, need to question everything and maintain an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.

Now just for a change, try being honest, with yourself, and the forum.....and please drop the " over the top" false sense of sanctimonious niceties you project, in an effort to cover the game you play.......In two words, BE HONEST.

 

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@ - brucep -
@ - Grumpy -
@ - paddoboy -


In my first Post in this Thread, Post #19, I Posted ;

To me, that is the Honest answer!

According to the BB theory, we have no notion of the state of anything prior to t=0, because as the theory puts forth, "space/time" did not yet exist. So, we do not even have a Mainstream Theoretical construct/model of what, how or even if, existence was prior to or precisely at t=0. We propose it as a state that we can not/do not/will not "know".

Do I have that wrong?

I am trying my darnedest to BE HONEST, and I HONESTLY HAVE NO AGENDA!

Even if only a small part of my Perception of The Big Bang Theory is correct, would the only truly honest answer to the original question in the OP be :

WE DO NOT KNOW. or NO ONE KNOWS. ???

@ - brucep - please correct me if the above is wrong
@ - Grumpy - please correct me if the above is wrong
@ - paddoboy - please correct me if the above is wrong

 

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You couldn't have been more wrong...at least in your inferences. No one, including me have ever said we know anything at t=0. In fact, the point of the BB/Inflationary theory where we do not know anything, is at t = 10-43 seconds. I have been at pains to express that many many times in a few threads.
Space and time certainly did not exist prior to that, or more correctly it's space and time as we know it, that didn't exist...Important that phrase "AS WE KNOW IT "

And further more, from t=10-43 seconds back to the initial event, and possibiley even before t=0, we will still not know until we formulate an observable testable QGT. Afterall, it is the Planck/Quantum epoch.
This is exactly what I mean when I say the BB is a theory of Universal evolution of space and time from the first Planck instant...we know nothing of the how or why.
But that doesn't mean cosmologists are not allowed to speculate....was the BB the arse end of a BH from another Universe??? Plus some speculative assumptions are based on the equations, findings and data already gathered by COBE, WMAP and other probes and educated guesses and extrapolations are made.

That's good to the first question...and it would mean my accusation is wrong.

The original question as put by rivers was asking about magnetic fields....the answer is most likely no in my opinion because at and just after the BB, all that existed was space and time.
Whatever hostility on any ones part towards rivers question, is his obvious agenda in once again, pushing the Plasma/Electric Universe rubbish which was peer reviewed and discarded 20 years ago.
Gravity with out any doubt, is the driving force behind the Universe as we see it, and the DE/CC component of space/time itself.

 

dumbest man on earth

That would not be honest, because we do know something. We don't know it all and there are limits to what we can know but we do know quite a bit about how our Universe developed over time, because our Universe is VISIBLE in time, the farther we look the further back in time that light started from, all the way to the CMB, the very first light the Universe ever let go into spacetime unhindered over 13 billion years ago.

No, but it's really irrelevant to what happened after the Big Bang, that we know quite a bit about.

You stand corrected.

Grumpy

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I like the analogy between the CMBR and a magnifying glass. The results of the great CMBR experiments should be common knowledge for folks interested in the origin and evolution of our universe. Surprisingly 'not' in my experience. Phenomenal achievement. Those folks doing that science are pretty darn good.

BTW Thanks for teaching our kids science.

 

Delete double comment.

 

paddoboy, please be kind enough to quote any "inferences" that I Posted in this Thread.

I never stated that you did. However, the OP clearly stated - and asked :

Ergo : the truly honest answer should have been ; WE DO NOT KNOW - or a variation of that. BTW, This Thread is the one we are "talking" about - not any/all others.

Is that not what I stated - in layman's terms - when I Posted :

...

paddoboy, please be kind enough to quote any challenge or disputation that I Posted in this Thread.

paddoboy, "good" is irrelevant, "would" is irrelevant.

paddoboy, so why did you not state that in your Post #4 ? - quoted below -

...

paddoboy, we are speaking of this Thread - please be kind enough to quote my Posts in this Thread relevant to any "agenda".

 

Grumpy, the OP clearly stated and asked :

Ergo : the truly honest answer should have been ; WE DO NOT KNOW - or a variation of that.

So, Grumpy, how, exactly, do you consider that I "stand corrected" - please be kind enough to quote any challenge or disputation or errors that I Posted in this Thread.

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One problem that is always overlooked is accelerator experiments do not occur under high enough gravitational pressures to get the phases that would have existed under extreme gravitational pressure. These experiments are art the wrong place in the phase diagram.

Let me give an example. On earth, water boils at 100C but at 6000C, if we apply enough pressure, water is no longer a gas but will become a metallic solid. If we only used high temperature and ignore high pressure, like in accelerators, the idea of a metallic water phase would be deem impossible since it never happens in low pressure experiments. There is not enough communication between branches of science or else you would have known about phase diagram as a function temperature and pressure which is the rule.

The burden of proof lies with those who claim pressure will not alter phases at the BB but we can rely on low pressure data. For example, quarks may be a low pressure and high temperature phase not useful during BB, but may be useful in quasars accelerating matter into lowering pressure. This closer in the phase diagram.

As far as using C as the ground state of the universe, matter net goes to energy in our universe, via fusion. Mass cannot move at C, so for mass to return to energy, it returns to C. All the forces of nature propagate at C. The speed of light is the same in all references. This is easier to make happen if C is the singular ground state and therefore separate from inertial. The unified force is easier to create if all forces are heading to the same ground state at lowest potential, which is C. They just do it in different ways. Gravity causes space-time reference to contract. Contraction of space-time reference, in the limit ,brings us to the C reference of the point instant.

Even the singularity of the BB is close to C with departure to less than C reference needed before mass could condense, since mass cannot move at C or be in the C reference directly. Mass created all the potential/capacitance with the C ground state with movement back to C via competing paths resulting in the variety we see.

 

dumbest man on earth

If your goal here is to be a belligerent asshat, you're doing a good job. And that's the best that can be said. The answer to the question is that there were no magnetic fields to begin with, and it was not a compression of magnetic fields, it was an expansion of energy from a single point. Until the forces separated, no magnetic field was possible. That means until Expansion ceased no magnetic(or gravitational) fields at all, after that the forces were established in their present forms and magnetic fields(and gravity)became possible, maybe those fields will be evident in the polarized CMB data and we can determine their strength. So the answer would be we don't YET know, but we're working on it.

wellwisher

Why? There was no gravity during the first phase of the BB. And gravity is the weakest classical force(DE is the weakest force now), it has little effect in the quantum, which is what an accelerator is examining. These scientists know their business better than you do, believe it or not.

Grumpy

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Grumpy, I have no "goal here". As for the the rest of your comment...well you claim to be of such a scientific nature...please be kind enough to quote any examples from my Posts in this thread where I in any way argued against any Mainstream Science Theory or proposed any alternate theory!
You will fail to do so - simply because of the fact (not theory, but FACT!!) that I did not do any such thing!
My first Post was #19 - if you would care to rebut any of my ACTUAL POSTS - go for it!

Grumpy, if you were to go so far as to actually read or possibly reread my Posts you would find that your seemingly puerile actions toward me in this Thread are not warranted by anything that I Posted.
Whatever you are going on about is completely of your own creation!
Again, Grumpy, PLEASE POST EVIDENCE BY QUOTING MY POSTS!!! Any FAILURE to DO JUST THAT will show who actually has a "GOAL HERE"!

Grumpy, have you still not actually read the OP?! The Poster clearly stated that his Question referred to point immediately Prior to the beginning of the BB - before t=0 :

paddoboy, stated that implicitly in his Post, quoted below, and I never argued against or in any way disputed that point in any of my Posts in this thread!!!

Grumpy, even if the OP questioned the "magnetic fields strength" between t=o and t = 10-43 seconds, you state that the answer would be : "we don't YET know, but we're working on it." as you put it! - quoted below :

Grumpy, it would be extremely enlightening for you to explain (with evidence...PLEASE!!!) how anything in any of my Posts would/could/should have led you to your seeming presumptions/assumptions/accusations concerning my alleged by you, Grumpy, "goal here" or of my concurrence or non-concurrence with The Big Bang Theory as proffered by Mainstream Science!

In short, Grumpy, that would be

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!

If you fail to just that...then it would just be un

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!!!

Grumpy, if you opt to be un

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, then any further Posts by you, whether to or about me would/could/should and WILL be nothing but TOTAL HARASSMENT OF A FELLOW POSTER, and will be treated/handled as such!

Grumpy, is that

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??!!

 

Spot on!!!!
It's nothing short of amazing that one person [or is that two if we count the other alias] could be so belligerently continually stupid.
Just one obvious example as to the confusion of this pair is as follows....................

That confusion and stupidity is amply illustrated with my following two quotes, which somehow he finds contradictory.............

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Originally Posted by paddoboy View Post
The original question as put by rivers was asking about magnetic fields....the answer is most likely no in my opinion because at and just after the BB, all that existed was space and time.
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paddoboy, so why did you not state that in your Post #4 ? - quoted below -


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Quote Originally Posted by paddoboy View Post
Simple, the the BB was not a creation/evolution, of matter/energy, it was a creation/evolution of space and time.
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Quite funny actually, and isn't his continuing over the top, sanctimonious efforts at being nice, so hypocritical?
dmoe/rivers and whatever other handle he choses to use, the same belligerent stupidity is obvious.

 

dumbest man on earth

Then being an asshat is a normal part of your charming personal manner?

I don't claim you have, but the responses you have posted make you an asshat.

As you said, you've made no substantive contribution worthy of rebuttal. Just asshat comments.

We know nothing of any period before t=0, as I have stated. But when the BB started there was no separate magnetic force, so no magnetic field at all. Magnetic fields are a result of the movement of charged matter, only spacetime and pure energy(in some form)erupted from the BB, matter did not yet exist. You would have seen it if your head wasn't so firmly stuffed up your fundament. Try opening your shirt and peeking through your belly button.

Reading them once was sufficient. Some things just aren't worth further attention. Your behavior is not hidden but evidently you can't take it coming the other way.

Do your own research, I think my first post in this thread said it in plain language and I could not possibly care less if you remain a stupid asshat(congratulations for that achievement, whether accidental, natural or by intention you are the consummate asshat)but I will point and laugh. We need people toward which we can point and laugh both to alleviate boredom and as object lessons of how not to behave in our forum. PLEASE bring this thread to the attention of the mods, the biggest asshats always play the victim when they are called for their behavior. I've been here a long time(and was on the previous forum for years before that)and I've dealt with lots of asshats, I've even been disciplined for it a time or two, please proceed, we have good mods here.

Grumpy

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paddoboy, below are Quoted the OP and your Post #4 in entirety :

Original Post ( I capitalized a few pertinent words!!) :

paddoboy, Your Post #4 :

paddoboy, you addressed nothing in your Post ^^above^^about the POINT JUST BEFORE THE POINT OF THE BANG actually happening - which is the POINT the OP was asking about!!

Where in your Post #4 ^^above^^ did you state or infer or imply : "the answer is most likely no"?!?!

paddoboy, indeed it is "nothing short of amazing" what you are POSTING!!! Your puerile allegations, name calling and delusions are only seemingly matched by your less than even feeble reading comprehension skills.

I have Posted nothing that would/could/should incur your LESS THAN HONEST POSTINGS DIRECTED AT OR ABOUT ME!!

paddoboy, you even compulsively exhibit and repeat a seemingly somewhat neurotic stated perception that I, dmoe, am also "part of a pair" or Posting under another "handle" and also continue to violate SCiForums Rules!!!

To wit ;
*NOTE* - Behaviour that may get you banned - from : http://www.sciforums.com/announcement.php?f=22
- Personal attacks on another member, including name-calling. -

paddoboy, could that behavior not be perceived or construed by some as, in your choice of words :

...???!!!

paddoboy, your seemingly childish behavior and constant repeating of your delusions and conjecture, will never, IN REALITY, cause those delusions and conjecture to become FACT.
paddoboy, by your own actions/Postings, you are doing nothing more than vanquishing any credibility you may have ever had and exhibiting less than respectful behavior!

paddoboy, if you can not "own up" to your Posted falsities and show actions befitting a GROWN MAN, by IMMEDIATELY CEASING YOUR, ... ??? ... JEALOUS ... !!! ... PERSONAL ATTACKS ON ME IN THIS FORUM. Well...

...then any further Posts by you, whether to or about me would/could/should and WILL be nothing but TOTAL HARASSMENT OF A FELLOW POSTER, and will be treated/handled as such!

paddoboy, is that "nothing short of amazing" or "Quite funny actually" ?

 

Grumpy, okay, you have made your choice ( I saw no reason to Quote your feckless Post #54) so you can suffer the consequences.

Those consequences will be of your own creation! You will be the one to have to continue to live with those consequences!

Grumpy, I will only offer you my condolences for the seeming : lack of any respect you have for yourself or others; your severely limited skills in Reading Comprehension; your inability to logically and rationally perceive and accept reality; and your persistent failure to exhibit behavior befitting an adult human...let alone a true man.

Grumpy, that is as far as I will go in responding to your CHILDISH BAITING AND INANE BEHAVIOR. I will not sink to your level!

Grumpy, I hope you find that

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.

 

So much use of bandwith, with so little to say, and as others have so eloquently noted.

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Just so you might think about why I said what I did. It's basically the short version of what Grumpy said. In this science forum it's going to come down to those who do the homework and those who don't. Assertions are bullshit. Don't like it?

 

I would like to add.....
My lack of respect for you stems from that sanctimonious condescending attitude you exhibit so well....That and of course the inability to read and interpret posts when it suits your agenda. Plus of course the continued inane condescending questions, when the same questions have been answered not just by myself, but at least three posters.

Your disguised threats re moderation also fools no one.
I'll stand and fall on the moderators decisions, as you will also.
And I have no complaints as to their actions in my time on this forum.


As far as accusations go, the first lot was from yourself in post 19, even though all posts before refuted river's claims, inuendos in reasonable terms. Of course that was the match that set you off on your ramblings, wasn't it?
Perhaps it is you who needs to grow up and stop hiding behind some false facade.

 

brucep, i have no problem thinking coherently, or reading with full comprehension - I know exactly what you said. Regardless of "this science forum", I have done my homework, in the real world.
I did not get my education by reading a few books by noted authors or perusing websites, I actually attended Colleges - and graduated. And, brucep, I also know what assertions are - and just like those proffered by Grumpy and paddoboy - more often than not, they are given with no supporting evidence whatsoever!

I was very careful to accompany all my statements (NOT ASSERTIONS!) with the Quoted evidence to back them up. The responses were neither in kind, nor indeed, kind.

The conduct/actions/behavior by these "Valued" members of this Forum are, at the very least, disrespectful. When I put any deep thought into the conduct/actions/behavior exhibited, it seems that they are lacking in any true healthy self-esteem and choose to see this Forum as their own "little immature mental/self-masturbatory playground" - where they can "get their rocks off" by deluding themselves into believing that they are somehow mentally superior to real actual adult men.

brucep, these children realize (barely) that they are on an internet forum that they (falsely) believe affords them anonymity and protection to engage in conduct/actions/behavior that they could not and would not attempt toward anyone in the real world.

I, dmoe, on the other hand, choose to conduct myself withe same discipline I employ in the real world - I conduct myself like a man - I make no statements asserted as fact without the evidence and fortitude to back those statements.

They obviously, and possibly(?) yourself, brucep,..."Don't like it?"!!! So...they and possibly(?) yourself "play the little puerile games" that this Forum seems to rely on, just so the "Forum Elders or Elite have something to laugh at". That is their (and possibly yours?) prerogative, and I applaud them choosing to exercise their prerogatives. It makes it so much easier to allow them to act immature when I realize that they are not just acting.

brucep, I have done my HOMEWORK - they could not maintain attention even long enough to remember what they wrote from one sentence to the next, it seemed at times : example below -

The actual quote states "more THAN", but "assertions" need not be factual, evidently!

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” - Albert Einstein

brucep, at any rate, I am secure in my education, I know and fully understand the sciences and other disciplines, and I am not in any way threatened by anyone - let alone some virtual personality on an internet Forum.

They and others on this Forum speak highly of you, and as I told you before I have read your Posts on this Forum. That being said, may I ask that, if it is not too much - that you might possibly once more re-read this Thread, from the beginning, with an Honest eye and no prejudice - just to see if I was indeed just making "assertions" and am indeed guilty of the other accusations/allegations I have been slighted for?

I only ask you this, because you do seem to be somewhat more reasonable in your Posts... so possibly?!

BTW - I have no "like or dislike" for "it" - it is just the internet - it is not real life!