Again, I am not sure if you follow the biblical teachings at all.. The Apostle Paul talks about both Original Sin and also Predestination in Romans. It is both there. If you don't follow biblical teachings, then I can't go further in the argument. By whose standards? If everybody was born with a free will and on a neutral basis( not prone to be good or bad.) Then out of the billions of people in the world, mathmatically speaking, somebody should have made pure choices and never have sinned. We don't see that at all though. One may wonder why? Help me out if that wasn't a clear statement. I am just trying to present the thought that out of all the people in history and all the people today, not one of them makes right choices from when they were born until they die. If you believe in free will and deny original sin then that would mean there is a possibility for a man to live a perfect life from start to finish. Does that Mathmatically stand true? You could possibly blame it on the society or culture, but then I would question, why is the society and culture corrupt as it is. What caused the corruption? The only record of this was in Jesus because he was God made flesh and the Holy spirit dwelt in him on earth. Just a thought. Predestination is hard to believe because it takes your own will and your own system of justice and fairness out of things. But if you believe in Original Sin, then you realize that we all deserve hell and we aren't worthy and nevery will be worthy of anything else but hell. But God made a way for man to be brought back into fellowship with him. Through the second Adam..Jesus..Now we have a way back into fellowship with God as it was before the fall in the Garden.. Man walked with God and now through Jesus, Man can walk with God. I think you said that you don't believe in Mediators so.... I can't be crazy Flores.. It is just different beliefs and I appreciate your openmindedness with things.
Suit yourself, although I was enjoying conversing with you greatly. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! By god's standards who told Jesus that the first commandment of all is Mark 12 [29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: [30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Our most important commandment does by Jesus doesn't say believe in Jesus with your heart and walk with him and you shall be saved. So do you really think you are respecting Jesus while you are not following his first commandment and getting confused by biblical inserts. Are you saying that you have personally met all the billions on the world and examined their soul and found that they have sinned. And what if they sin by their free will, isn't god all forgiving, so what's wrong with making mistakes if one is good. God tells us in the Quran that you don't have to be free of sin to enter heaven, you just have to run your best and make sure that the scale of your soul is not tipping toward evil but toward good. Yes there is possibility, but how would one judge a person but his maker. Do you know exactly what constitues a sin and what doesn't beside the obvious. Many people live lives free of crime and respectfull to others, so what about those, why do you say they sin, because they crossed once the street while it was red, comeone now, those are not the laws of god, those are the laws of humans. And by the way is complaining sinning, because Jesus complained and cried about his entire mission. He also peed and pooped on his mother and cried when he was hungry and thirsty just like any child does. He didn't live in a cacoon. Mark 15 [34] And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? No it is not mathematically true at all. I had many graduate courses in probability and your comment is commpletely false. 100% of the people born pure and given a choice might sin, and one of the probabilities is also that they all might not sin....It's just a probability though, and the reality is 1 in 7 billion, so what are you questioning so passionetly. And yes, you are being crazy, but that's your choice.
Let's try this: Code: "Jesus" ... GOD ... "Jesus" -------------- -------^--------- Adam | \ "Spirit" / | V \ | / ^ sin \ V / | our existence \ [u]"Jesus"[/u] / our existence death................|..................death V | "Spirit" by/according to whom we live V "Pool of fire"
Jenyar, I am kind of confused by the drawing. Could you explain. Flores, I enjoy your persistance, I can see how much you have been through. Although my words don't always come out as they are in my head.. It all makes sense to me. It is the from my head to words that I have trouble with. I still think mathematically like you said, there is a possibility that all people are pure, but also a possibility that all people are not pure. You are right, I am not the judge of a mans soul, but mans actions is in direct connection to whats in a mans soul. I can't physically ask every person in the world if they have ever made a wrong "choice", but I believe you know what the answer would be. Also was very curious, What do you believe about creation given that you don't believe in creation as illistrated in the bible.
Beautifull Jenyar, but too bad you are not to be found in this diagram. Here's my diagram. GOD | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ME YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE INCLUDING JESUS God said in the Quran that we are equal and will be gathered like Moth in a day when only god will speak and judge...No mediators, sons or daughter, only god judging his creation. The Calamity In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. [101.1] The terrible calamity! [101.2] What is the terrible calamity! [101.3] And what will make you comprehend what the terrible calamity is? [101.4] The day on which men shall be as scattered moths, [101.5] And the mountains shall be as loosened wool. [101.6] Then as for him whose measure of good deeds is heavy, [101.7] He shall live a pleasant life. [101.8] And as for him whose measure of good deeds is light, [101.9] His abode shall be the abyss. [101.10] And what will make you know what it is? [101.11] A burning fire.
OK. That was fun. I'm out of time but here's a few points. Flores, "our existence" = us / the human condition From that previous diagram, you'll remember that Jesus is God "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, and we are one". God became came among us ("Immanuel") and part of us (through the Spirit) so that we don't have to be alone anymore. The Spirit Jesus left with us is the same Spirit at God - which is why humanists can so easily say "we are gods". Yes, we are, but only because God made it possible. "We are saved" because God saved us. If we are not saved, we a trapped by sin, whether inherited or not (more on this later), and imperfect. Our imperfections have been genetically passed on since Adam, and its getting worse. On top of that, the imperfections introduced into nature, such as illness, are also passed on (you know AIDS kills ten times more people in a year than all the wars put together?) God is merciful... I'm just telling you 'how' God was merciful, and 'how much' grace He has shown us - more than you admit. When is God more merciful, when you don't need his grace (such as when you manage to purify your own soul), or when you have received it and are able to praise Him for something He has already done?
Not really, man's actions can only be interpreted by god. I like this story of Moses in the Quran, I don't think it's in the bible, it might be, anyways, it illustrates that sometimes things that might appear evil to us might actually be good, and vice verse, it is about a time when Moses at his old age while he was walking god informed him that he will send him some knowledge through a man that he will meet, here it goes. [18.66] Musa said to him: Shall I follow you on condition that you should teach me right knowledge of what you have been taught? [18.67] He said: Surely you cannot have patience with me [18.68] And how can you have patience in that of which you have not got a comprehensive knowledge? [18.69] He said: If Allah pleases, you will find me patient and I shall not disobey you in any matter. [18.70] He said: If you would follow me, then do not question me about any thing until I myself speak to you about it [18.71] So they went (their way) until when they embarked in the boat he made a hole in it. (Musa) said: Have you made a hole in it to drown its inmates? Certainly you have done a grievous thing. [18.72] He said: Did I not say that you will not be able to have patience with me? [18.73] He said: Blame me not for what I forgot, and do not constrain me to a difficult thing in my affair. [18.74] So they went on until, when they met a boy, he slew him. (Musa) said: Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing. [18.75] He said: Did I not say to you that you will not be able to have patience with me? [18.76] He said: If I ask you about anything after this, keep me not in your company; indeed you shall have (then) found an excuse in my case. [18.77] So they went on until when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them as guests. Then they found in it a wall which was on the point of falling, so he put it into a right state. (Musa) said: If you had pleased, you might certainly have taken a recompense for it. [18.78] He said: This shall be separation between me and you; now I will inform you of the significance of that with which you could not have patience. [18.79] As for the boat, it belonged to (some) poor men who worked on the river and I wished that I should damage it, and there was behind them a king who seized every boat by force. [18.80] And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them: [18.81] So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion. [18.82] And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father was a righteous man; so your Lord desired that they should attain their maturity and take out their treasure, a mercy from your Lord, and I did not do it of my own accord. This is the significance of that with which you could not have patience.
Here is the account of what happend. My view match the account. It goes like this, god created the heaven and earth in six days. Everything in heaven and earth worshipped him unconditionally. The archangels revolved without a question, ect...Then god wanted to create man, and the angels questioned why would god want to create something on earth like the animals who shed blood while the angels are busy worshipping, so god tell them I know what you don't know. And he created adam and asked all the angels to bow to adam, and all of them did except Iblis (Shaitan or Satan). He was proud and didn't see the high destiny of man and only the lowly material flesh that is mud. Satan said to god, I will not bow for you made me of fire and him of flesh and I'm sure better than him, but Satan didn't know that man was really better than him. Satan asked god for respite while he shows god that man is not that good, and god granted the respite but told satan that he will have no luck with the rightous, and at the end all those that will select the fire of Satan will be thrown in it. When Adam was lured to disobey god, the consequence was to descend to earth and earn one's own path. In the Quran, it is stated that god taught adam the right words to repent and he forgave him and told him that all your children that will work rightously will have no fear upon them. [2.29] He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things. [2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know. [2.31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right. [2.32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise. [2.33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide? [2.34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers. [2.35] And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust. [2.36] But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time. [2.37] Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. [2.38] We said: Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
Flores It goes like this, god created the heaven and earth in six days. Contrary to all known evidence that the Earth is several billion years old and the universe much older?
Q, God only created it all in six days, he didn't say I developed it in six days, it took much longer to actually develop. One little seed could be source of the creation of us all, a seed that took billion of years to be what we see today.
Creation On the sixth day God created the human being. The human being is still in the last day of creation. We're not finished, yet, and God is not resting. When we reach bioevolutionary perfection, we will then be the completed creation of God and the image of God on Earth.
Flores So, what you’re saying is that God created “something” and then evolution took over and did the rest, right? Medicine Woman When we reach bioevolutionary perfection, we will then be the completed creation of God and the image of God on Earth. Any idea when this might happen? If God is perfect, why then did he not create perfection? Are you saying that God is imperfect and that evolution produces perfection?
Precisely, god created something with the ability to evolve. And what do you base your bogus claim that god creates imperfection on. Last I checked, his creation is perfect. Even sickness and death are part of the perfection of his creation.
Flores Last I checked, his creation is perfect. Even sickness and death are part of the perfection of his creation. What about wars, murder and rape?
Flores Precisely, god created something with the ability to evolve. If something has the “ability” to evolve, why would this need to be created? Why could not evolution be self-actuating?
Evolution vs God I give God credit for creating all that up to and including the process of evolution. As I've said in my previous posts, we are God on Earth--we were in the beginning, we are now, and we will be God at the end of our evolution. Actually, I'm not sure there will ever be an end to our evolution, but at some point in the future, and it definitely won't be in our lifetime nor maybe even a thousand generations that come after us, there will be a total blending of races and genders, and we will all be One. All the while this is happening, God is with us and we are with God. There is only one soul that we all share, and that is the Spirit of God.
Iblis sinned or disobeyed god by his own will. He could have bowed with the rest of the angels, but he didn't because his internal makeup of fire allowed him to rebel more than other creations. Man is also given a good elaborate internal makeup that allows us to rebel or sin, but sin is not within us. It's the outcome of our will. We choose to sin, we are not a sin waiting to happen.
On the 6th day God created land animals, man and woman. On the 7th day he rested. And on the 8th day God said, "OK Murphy, you take over."
