Jihad Khara. I see, so because I shared with you the fact that I studied too hard for my professional engineer exam while caring for a husband, a two year old, a full time job, and breastfeeding, and had suffered some lack of sleep that I got misdiagnosed on, you'll look down on me. I really don't give a crap how you look, because you are nobody. I have noticed that we have nothing constructive to tell each other, so let's be smart and refrain from answering each other posts, and last I checked, I created this thread, so you are intruding on my space. By the way, I'm enjoying sciforums greatly since I just added you to my ignore list...your pages and pages of garbage have diminshed to one liners of this person is on your ignore list....Wow, life is beautiful Ps. I know you don't know arabic, but how about calling yourself Jihad Khara, or better, Jihad Teez Elerd, those names would tell us posters more about you.
Geez Flores, Is there some bitterness toward Jihad_AlifLamLamHah. Maybe I missed a beat, but he was just responding to the argument and to your posts. I am sure there is more to the story. I am very sorry that you had to take a load like that on. It would become stressful on anyone. Can the creator of the thread kick people off their posts? Just curious. I am a newby still.
No Quickly, of course not, The creator of thread have no rights at all, and the thread can be removed and deleted by Cris in a second if it was not of proper value or off topic as we are doing right now. Let's just say, we are currently enjoying the moderator finite patience and respite. To get to know Jihad Khara, you must hang around a bit longer to understand his hypocracy, his stupidity, his extreme views, his lies, ect......You can't get him from one or two posts, hang out in politics and you'll figure him out in a second...Afterall, he is an avid supporter of Usama Bin Laden political views.
Hey Sharmuta , who the hell do you think you are ? I created this thread, so you are intruding on my space LMFAO , this Sharmuta thinks she owns some thread because she has gotten the PRIVILEGE to make one ? I see, so because I shared with you No...... and looking down has nothing to do with it . What HAS to do it is your emotional involvement in everything , you cant let go of shit and you're trying to come off like some knowledge CUNCHA : I'm actually scared of reading the Quran, because the Quran have so many complicated ideas with so much meaning that would send me permanently to the mental ward You're scared of PAPER , God what an emotional wreckage you must be . I do hope you can keep all that to yourself and not bother your lovely children with it so they grow up SCARED OF PAPER just like you . Wow, life is beautiful Yes you keep telling yourself that . that I got misdiagnosed on ahum , yes sure...now allofasudden its misdiagnozed ...u didnt mention that last time , and just so you know , I dont care about diagnozes they are mostly hilarious ....... but thats besides the point , yet it does show how useless it is for you to bring this in ....... you're in constant denyal SISTER . I just added you to my ignore list Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ....oh oh sorry for the lack of respect his hypocracy which IS ? his stupidity Most Excellent things that I have ever heard. I need to hand you $200 dollars, and a license to to practice phsyciatry...I"m serious. What an idiot LMFAO his extreme views Good and eveil can be divided into extreme and moderate correct ? Damn Allah must be the most evil "deity" ever as he is everything that is Good in extreme ...... where's your logic sis ? Where ? Go look for it his lies which are ? hang out in politics and you'll figure him out in a second Oh yes politics , you bring in politics , just cuz you cant stand that i can totally figure your brain out , and you cant stand that I am totally right on what I said , you bring in things that have NOTHING to do with what is being discussed here . Just to make me look bad ....and then you bring in : Afterall, he is an avid supporter of Usama Bin Laden political views. First of all , whats your damn point ? Secondly , you dont only point at me ...... Im not his ONLY political supporter , go back home once in a while sis , you'll find plenty peoples dont just support him politically but even admire his religious attempts (unlike me) . So be aware who you are pointing at ...... Maybe yo UMMI like UBL more than I do . but how about calling yourself Jihad Khara, or better, Jihad Teez Elerd, those names would tell us posters more about you. Im not that stupid to not know you are calling me Jihad Ass and Jihad Shit , its ok ....but dont say "US POSTERS" , because there is no US ther is only YOU . Moreover , I can better talk about US POSTERS who werent banned before on this forum because they cant behave . US ......... Dont try to claim unity when there isnt any Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Quigly : Geez Flores, Is there some bitterness toward Jihad_AlifLamLamHah You see the thing is , Flores has extreme emotional attachments to her religion and her God , whenever somebody is critcizing ANY of it , or at least questioning things that she doesnt like about it , she gets totally crazy . Especially when she now gets a cricizement she cant handle , like one from a MUSLIM point of view instead of Christians and Atheists . Doesnt the way she behaves toward other religions just say it all , cricizing their scriptures while she cant even read Goddamn Hebrew nor Latin nor Greek , just because its *different* than her prescious Islam . And thats why she is totally upset when her prescious Islam turns out to be DIFFERENT from what she thought it was , some deity-worshipping space-baboon religion . Go see a shrink sis , your situation is worrying .
Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing. This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents. And if there weren't different variations, why the need for a "standardized version"? There is no "original version" of the Quran. Muhammed dictated it, and afterwards it was written down from memory. How is this possible, if the latest extant texts we have for the Bible date to 200AD, and the earliest Quran is after 600AD. So my question to you is, exactly when was the Bible corrupted? On the other hand: The Quran claims that speeches were made by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Mary and even Jesus that contain words such as: "Muslim" and "Islam" that were in a totally unknown tongue and not invented for at least another 600 years (Suras 2:60, 126-128, 132-133, 260; 3:49-52, 67; 6:74-82; 7:59-63, 120-126 etc.). And while the Quran claims to be perfect and complete in itself (Sura 85:21-22)... (C)ertain variant readings existed and, indeed, persisted and increased as the Companions who had memorised the text died, and because the inchoate (basic) Arabic script, lacking vowel signs and even necessary diacriticals to distinguish between certain consonants, was inadequate. ... In the 4th Islamic century, it was decided to have recourse (to return) to "readings" (qira'at) handed down from seven authoritative "readers" (qurra'); in order, moreover, to ensure accuracy of transmission, two "transmitters" (rawi, pl. ruwah) were accorded to each. There resulted from this seven basic texts (al-qira'at as-sab', "the seven readings"), each having two transmitted versions (riwayatan) with only minor variations in phrasing, but all containing meticulous vowel-points and other necessary diacritical marks. With the result that the version from Imam Hafs differs from the version by Imam Warsh, for example. I'm not trying to say that these version are contradictory or corrupted, as I have not (and am not able) to read them. But that they exist means that your objection about the Bible being corrupt by the same standard under which the Quran is not, is invalid.
Reward??? In what way is the man who commits this act rewarded? He has to pay the father of the girl 50 shekels, and has to marry the girl, to whom he obviously had no respect, for the rest of his life, never to be divorced. Also you must take into account what rape meant in those days. It was forbidden for a women to have relations outside of marriage, she could only be given away by Dad, her will, was in the charge of Dads, Dad was in charge of his estate and all his properties, including Mum. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If she (daughter) had sexual relations without her fathers permission or blessing, she was considered a prostitute, and the act of the man was considered "rape" as he did not get the permission from Dad. And this was legal, whether she agreed to the relations or not. Love Jan Ardena.
I agree Jan ardena, And actually after I examined the other versions of the bible, I think that NIV have made a super simplistic translation that might not agree with the intent of the bible. I think the intent of this verse was to highlight the fact that the bible believe that sex is what binds a man and woman together forever. So once a girl is violated or even had sex with her consent, she must be commited to the man that afflicted the rape on her. Today, this would be horrible and not applicable, but maybe 2000 years ago, a girl who have been raped have no other better choice than to marry her rapist, because no other man would marry her. This brings out to another discussion is the Bible and Koran written for every day and age, or do the laws only apply to the specific times that the message was revealed in.
Good point, but Othman was alive during the time that the Quran was revealed. He saw and spoke to the Prophet. He was one of the Islamic Khalifas or followers. He was entrusted personally by the Prophet to compile the Koran. In that case, I don't see a problem with Othman issuing the standardized version not long after the death of the Prophet, for by default, the compilation of the Quran during that time was a great great task that had to go through many checks and the most accurate accounts were the only to be adopted. During the life of the Prophet, he had a chance to review. Something that Prophet Jesus Christ peace be upon him, didn't have a chance to do on the document that you are currently reading. That's not the bible in it's entirety. Just some chapters of it. I'm not saying that the bible have no word in truth in it. All I say, is that it's corrupt. A holly document can be corrupt by misplacing one or two words, and still many of the stories will remain true. Don't think that when I say that they bible is corrupt that I don't believe in a bible, because I do believe in the bible or Injil, I'm just carefull while reading it, because I know that the pen of the scribes have lied sometimes to satisfy it's agenda at the time. The bible was corrupted many times, everytime that a translation took place, a corruption had to enter, even with good intentions. Then there was bad intentions during the times of the Crusaders and the catholic church, when priests used to sell people salvation papers. Sections of the new testaments were added in full and corrupted to support the church views. Precisely, the Quran tells us that speeches were made in unknown tongues, but that within itself tells us that those books are unavailable to us, and that the Quran is the final protected word of god. Does the bible make that claim? I'm impressed Jenyar, I have to admit that I learned something from you here. I can't fully proof to you that the Quranic version is exact to the one revealed to Muhammed, although it's very very close for all human use purposes, but I detect larger problems with the bible. I detect inconsistencies and matters that make no sense whatsoever like confusing the first commmandement of worshiping the one and only god to worshiping Jesus as the lord and savior. These are major discrepencies that can not be tolerated by any person that understands and respect the oneness of god concept.
The essence of the books never changes, such is the nature of the Supreme Allah, it is very simple. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Love Jan Ardena
To Jihad Khara The Family of Imran [3.19] Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. [3.85] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. Please direct all future insults and questions to the author of the book....Please don't bother me, I'm merely highlighting a passage in the book...I have no claims regarding this passage but the obvious. Your insults were well taken coming from uneducated incompetent fool on the internet. A mother always knows how to handle a smelly lump like yourself, I have changed and disposed of plenty of diapers before.
To Flores Sharmuta Please direct all future insults and questions to the author of the book.... And which HUMANS would those exactly be ? Please don't bother me, I'm merely highlighting a passage in the book...I have no claims regarding this passage but the obvious. What are you highlighting ? I didnt know those HUMAN writers of Qu'ran knew modernday English ...... So before we get to the authors , we meet the translators first dont we ? So who should I whine about ? Pickthal ? Yusuf ? Who ? Also , what exactly do you think 3.19] Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. has to do with your space-baboon ? Tell me Surely it DOESNT say . "Surely the true religion with space-baboon is Islam , and those whom the Book had been given (but cant read it nor understand it nor apply it ) etc etc etc . Your insults were well taken coming from uneducated incompetent fool on the internet . mother always knows how to handle a smelly lump like yourself, I have changed and disposed of plenty of diapers before. Yet you need to hand me $200 dollars, and a license to practice phsyciatry ? You're such a laugh moms , lets not question my education thats the last thing you want to worry about . Also , you are obviously superwoman for being able to read what I post after ignoring me . At least then one potential meaning of the infamous Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! has been revealed . Stop whining about insults , you are the highly insultive one here while I have always treated you with respect and apollogized when necesarry , while you only shit on peoples philosophical understanding of things ........ things you even have openly admitted you know nothing off , and then call me damn names and whine whine whine . How sad ......
You mean no you do not. Read what you wrote: 'arabic copy'. A copy is a copy. It is not the original. And while you are reading what you wrote, try reading what I wrote. You now the part about, the way a text is written? And quoting Quran with memory skills alone is now o.k. with you? You trust all those different minds out there to remember the same message? To hear someone 'say' the Quran, is not the same message as to read it for yourself. Subtleties, especially in religion can have huge affects on the message. Even if you really did read from the original, you are reading it in a different context. Words and the meanings attached to them, constantly evolve. Centuries latter are you still cool with that? Would the author of the Quran be 'cool' with it? Or would he say he does not need a blanket, no he is not cool. You do not know what the intended message precisely was. You are, like it or not, out of context from 'when' and 'where' the Quran was written. Just as you are taking the 'rape' words out of context.
Rape meant stoning. The story of Daniel 13 shows this. 1 1 In Babylon there lived a man named Joakim, 2 who married a very beautiful and God-fearing woman, Susanna, the daughter of Hilkiah; 3 her pious parents had trained their daughter according to the law of Moses. 4 Joakim was very rich; he had a garden near his house, and the Jews had recourse to him often because he was the most respected of them all. 5 That year, two elders of the people were appointed judges, of whom the Lord said, "Wickedness has come out of Babylon: from the elders who were to govern the people as judges." 6 These men, to whom all brought their cases, frequented the house of Joakim. 7 When the people left at noon, Susanna used to enter her husband's garden for a walk. 8 When the old men saw her enter every day for her walk, they began to lust for her. 9 They suppressed their consciences; they would not allow their eyes to look to heaven, and did not keep in mind just judgments. 10 Though both were enamored of her, they did not tell each other their trouble, 11 for they were ashamed to reveal their lustful desire to have her. 12 Day by day they watched eagerly for her. 13 One day they said to each other, "Let us be off for home, it is time for lunch." So they went out and parted; 14 but both turned back, and when they met again, they asked each other the reason. They admitted their lust, and then they agreed to look for an occasion when they could meet her alone. 15 One day, while they were waiting for the right moment, she entered the garden as usual, with two maids only. She decided to bathe, for the weather was warm. 16 Nobody else was there except the two elders, who had hidden themselves and were watching her. 17 "Bring me oil and soap," she said to the maids, "and shut the garden doors while I bathe." 18 They did as she said; they shut the garden doors and left by the side gate to fetch what she had ordered, unaware that the elders were hidden inside. 19 As soon as the maids had left, the two old men got up and hurried to her. 20 "Look," they said, "the garden doors are shut, and no one can see us; give in to our desire, and lie with us. 21 If you refuse, we will testify against you that you dismissed your maids because a young man was here with you." 22 "I am completely trapped," Susanna groaned. "If I yield, it will be my death; if I refuse, I cannot escape your power. 23 Yet it is better for me to fall into your power without guilt than to sin before the Lord." 24 Then Susanna shrieked, and the old men also shouted at her, 25 as one of them ran to open the garden doors. 26 When the people in the house heard the cries from the garden, they rushed in by the side gate to see what had happened to her. 27 At the accusations by the old men, the servants felt very much ashamed, for never had any such thing been said about Susanna. 28 When the people came to her husband Joakim the next day, the two wicked elders also came, fully determined to put Susanna to death. Before all the people they ordered: 29 "Send for Susanna, the daughter of Hilkiah, the wife of Joakim." When she was sent for, 30 she came with her parents, children and all her relatives. 31 Susanna, very delicate and beautiful, 32 was veiled; but those wicked men ordered her to uncover her face so as to sate themselves with her beauty. 33 All her relatives and the onlookers were weeping. 34 In the midst of the people the two elders rose up and laid their hands on her head. 35 Through her tears she looked up to heaven, for she trusted in the Lord wholeheartedly. 36 The elders made this accusation: "As we were walking in the garden alone, this woman entered with two girls and shut the doors of the garden, dismissing the girls. 37 A young man, who was hidden there, came and lay with her. 38 When we, in a corner of the garden, saw this crime, we ran toward them. 39 We saw them lying together, but the man we could not hold, because he was stronger than we; he opened the doors and ran off. 40 Then we seized this one and asked who the young man was, 41 but she refused to tell us. We testify to this." The assembly believed them, since they were elders and judges of the people, and they condemned her to death. 42 But Susanna cried aloud: "O eternal God, you know what is hidden and are aware of all things before they come to be: 43 you know that they have testified falsely against me. Here I am about to die, though I have done none of the things with which these wicked men have charged me." 44 The Lord heard her prayer. 45 As she was being led to execution, God stirred up the holy spirit of a young boy named Daniel, 46 and he cried aloud: "I will have no part in the death of this woman." 47 All the people turned and asked him, "What is this you are saying?" 48 He stood in their midst and continued, "Are you such fools, O Israelites! To condemn a woman of Israel without examination and without clear evidence? 49 Return to court, for they have testified falsely against her." 50 Then all the people returned in haste. To Daniel the elders said, "Come, sit with us and inform us, since God has given you the prestige of old age." 51 But he replied, "Separate these two far from one another that I may examine them." 52 After they were separated one from the other, he called one of them and said: "How you have grown evil with age! Now have your past sins come to term: 53 passing unjust sentences, condemning the innocent, and freeing the guilty, although the Lord says, "The innocent and the just you shall not put to death.' 54 Now, then, if you were a witness, tell me under what tree you saw them together." 55 2 "Under a mastic tree," he answered. "Your fine lie has cost you your head," said Daniel; "for the angel of God shall receive the sentence from him and split you in two." 56 Putting him to one side, he ordered the other one to be brought. "Offspring of Canaan, not of Judah," Daniel said to him, "beauty has seduced you, lust has subverted your conscience. 57 3 This is how you acted with the daughters of Israel, and in their fear they yielded to you; but a daughter of Judah did not tolerate your wickedness. 58 Now, then, tell me under what tree you surprised them together." 59 "Under an oak," he said. "Your fine lie has cost you also your head," said Daniel; "for the angel of God waits with a sword to cut you in two so as to make an end of you both." 60 The whole assembly cried aloud, blessing God who saves those that hope in him. 61 They rose up against the two elders, for by their own words Daniel had convicted them of perjury. According to the law of Moses, they inflicted on them the penalty they had plotted to impose on their neighbor: 62 they put them to death. Thus was innocent blood spared that day. 63 Hilkiah and his wife praised God for their daughter Susanna, as did Joakim her husband and all her relatives, because she was found innocent of any shameful deed. 64 And from that day onward Daniel was greatly esteemed by the people. Jesus fullfilled the old testament law. We should go the extra mile. Also the old law was created to keep social order and show what God wants. 3 Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, 4 saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?" 4 5 He said in reply, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate." 7 6 They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?" 8 He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 I say to you, 7 whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery." 10 [His] disciples said to him, "If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry." 11 He answered, "Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted. 12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."
Rape means stoning? Bullshit! This longwinded passage you copied just goes to show what lecherous old men are capable of in Biblical times AND now. Please okinrus, spare us the long, boring Bible quotes. If you must, just make reference to the chapter and verse. If any of us want to look it up, the Bible is wasted paper that any of us could get our hands on--if we wanted to or if we cared what you had to say.
And "the woman shall encompass a man with devotion". Why are you assuming that in bibical times woman were looked bad upon? It was a woman whom Jesus said had faith greater than all of Isreal. Besides rape has always meant stoning.
holy sis? Eek, Flores! Are you implying that the bible has a disrespectful attitude towards women? Pshaw.. Don't you realize that Mary was a VIRGIN. Yes, a pregnant virgin. You see how much the bible loves women! The mother of our savior would never disgrace herself by enjoying sex, wanting sex, or even considering sex. No, she was a good woman: a sexless woman. Why, after she delivered Jesus, any man finding her on deserted road would be proud to.... um, marry her. It's how any man would want it.
You have some sick perverted fantasies. Even if we assume that you are an atheist, you are still sick because you want to have relations with a dead woman. http://www.catholic-center.rutgers.edu/FrAlCaprio/Apparitions.html
The Quran was not compiled during the Prophet's lifetime. The seven different reading might not vary significantly, but it means that the Quran is no more immune to changes than the Bible, even after it was 'approved'. The Bible underwent similar meticulous checks and likewise only the most accurate accounts were adopted. The difference is that Jesus used the Old Testament as it was available to the Jews of that time (called the Septuagint, or LXX which we still have today), and that the New Testament testifies about Jesus himself. The OT testifies about the messiah, and the NT testifies about Jesus as the messiah. The fact is, neither Mohammed nor Jesus wrote anything themselves, but trusted scribes and witnesses. Just which books do you consider to be corrupt? The oldest complete New Testament (about Jesus) dates to 400AD, while the most important books of the OT date from 200 BC - 70 AD (the rest were preserved with great care by the whole of Judaism). You can check which books were found among the Qumran scrolls. What is left, I presume, are those you consider 'corrupted'. This is not based on any facts. I challenge you to substantiate these claims. I have shown you that we have complete manuscripts of all the books of the New Testament (Injil) dating to before 400AD, long before Muhammed testified to their truth in 600AD. The language of the Quran, or "divine language" happens to be the same dialect spoken by Muhammed's tribe? It only says that the Scripture is "God-breathed". I also claim that the Bible is sufficient for the purpose it was intended for by God, but I don't have to show disrespect to the Quran to do it. I might not trust the scribes, but I do trust God. You do not agree - that is different than seeing an inconsistency. We both testify to one God alone, but I understand that God sent a part of himself to a become part of us. We worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who has become our saviour through Jesus. If their are any specific inconsistencies that bother you, feel free to ask.
Thanks Jenyar Agreed, yet it was compiled shortly after by a man named Othman who was alive and a deciple during the time of Prophet Muhammed. Neverthless, as you repeately stated, our true faith is in god and not the scribes, and the holly books are guidelines and not the object of the worship. To be honest with you, I'd like to go straight to the elements of the bible that discomfort me. I agree with most of the bible with expception of few things that I feel had to be corrupt. The reason I feel so is because I compared them with the Quran, and I was ready to announce that Quran was wrong in those subject, but after study, I realized that the Quran presented the better seemingly correct view. Issues that I have are: The story of Abraham, Parts of Genesis, misrepresentations of Jesus, and defammation of some prophets by exposing their sex life. Like I said, I can't totally proof corruption beside the logic that I outlined before. The books were written and compiled during a long time. The church that handeled the books was extremely troubeled during the most part and should not be trusted, the language the bible has been written with is lost and all is availalbe to us is second, third, and fourth hand translations. I agree that Muhammed testified to the truth in the Torah and Injil, and that's why I read them, yet the Quran mentions that christians at the time exceeded the limits given to them. Meaning Christians added a lot to the divine message, beefed it up. It's that extra beef that I have trouble with. It was impossible during those times to find enough papers to write and store the entire bible as we see it today, that was an unheard of practice. We can go and research the biggest book during the time to understand the capability of publishing at the time. And where are these original scribes? Arabic is a cousin of Hebrew. Actually it's pronounce AAraby, with the A being AA, real hard to pronounce by a westerner. Hebrew is AAbry. Both languages have almost identical letters, similar words, both right from right to left, ect......The best poetry written in those times where written by the those tribes. Those guys were so good in literature that they started modifying their language and making it richer to accomadate their complicated writings. God wished to silent a bunch of pagan arrogant poets using their same tool which is writing. I consider that a miracle within itself. They with all their might could not produce one Sura like in the Quran. Yet, It doesn't say that this is the bible is the only and last book. It doesn't even say the injil as mentioned in the Quran. So the Quran gave the bible more credit than the bible gave itself. Amen to that, and trust me I'm not disrespecting the bible, the bible complete many voids in my knowledge and my god tells me that not only that I have to believe what is given to me, but what was sent before me. The Torah and the bible came before me and without learning them properly, I have no basis to understand the Quran. Please explain to me your view of the trinity, Jesus as the son of god, and Jesus as god himself. Then we'll compare notes. This is the most ouch subject for me, but what the hell, let's try again.
