The answer to all scientific questions about the universe

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by paul defourneaux, Mar 29, 2000.

  1. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    I have read these comments and theories wich are posted here.I find that there are many different inquisiting minds.The people who post topics here should find the Urantia foundation interesting.The Urantia book was published by the foundation in 1955 and it had many answers to scientific theories not yet posed.Now 45 years has passed and many of the answers have been proven by science.If any of you out there want to learn more contact me at machiaventa@AOL.COM .iWIL ANSWER ALL QUESTIONS.
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  3. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Do they have a website and if so can you paste the link here please.
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  5. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    There are many links to this topic the main adresse is .I would also try You can try and go from there.One more thing use your search engine and look for ubron or urantia or unrantia god art.

    Thanx Machiaventa Speaks
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  7. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Thanks Paul
  8. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    Your welcome Cris

    Please enjoy what you'r about to see and remember to read it with an open mind and it will forever change your life and they way you looked at the world and universe before.

    Machiaventa Speaks
  9. Crisp Gone 4ever Registered Senior Member

    Hi Paul,

    I consider myself to be a quite open-minded person but I have to admit that I have some problems with excerpts from the "book of Urantia" (I discovered this when doing a search for the word "energy"). I quote:

    If we both agree that there are 9 zero's in the first number you see there, then this would mean that the "andronover" (andromeda?) nebula was formed 875 billion years ago (I assume that the Urantians use the same decimal system as mostly used in the western world).

    Don't you think this number is disturbingly deviating from what other members of the scientific community estimate the age of the universe is ? (15 billion years, give or take an additional 10 billion if you like). Am I missing something here or did I just misinterpretted this text ? Also, why is everything expressed so lyrically ? I am sure the writers of the book were very literate persons, but isn't one of the properties of a good "theory" that it is written as clearly as possible ?

    Just my two cents (or two billion if we use other counting systems)...


    [This message has been edited by Crisp (edited April 05, 2000).]
  10. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    Dear Crisp,
    The age that the book states is correct.What science doesn't realize that what we seem to think is the universe is only a system among many systems contained in a universe,which inturn is contained in a superuniverse.We are only able thru modern tech. to see back only 15 to 30 billion years.There are seven universes in the superuniverse of orvonton.We are in the system of Satania which is in the universe of Nebadon.I am sure these names seem strange to you,yet they are the closest english trans. for a universally spoken language.All of the numbers given in the book in regard to our solar system have been proven to be quite accurate.The dates and times are also correct.Any time you wish to ask a serious question about the book and want to hear more than my answer.Log into .They and I will answer any and all inquiries.

    Thanx Machiaventa Speaks
  11. dumb college kid Registered Member

    machiaventa, as you said yourself, we are only able to see so far by the limitations of our technology. How then is it that anyone can know that there is more than one universe. Unless you can base these claims on any postulations, evidence, or observations, mathematical or otherwise, I am going to have to say that I can't find the theory of there being seven "universes" (strangely enough there is not a plural version of the word "universe" in my dictionary!) or a "superuniverse" to be credible.
  12. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    Dear Crisp,
    In answer to your question I will say the following.To begin with all things we do see in life require a certain amount of faith.Even the Urantia book with all it's scientific answers requires some leap of faith.To better help you understand it remember that it was translated into english from a language spoken in the universe.This language is used by all worlds and personalities that have advanced far beyond where we are.When any translation is done there will always be some peculuarities.When the book refers to the system of satania it means the milky way.When they refer to the Nebadon universe they mean the entire universe as we know it.This would include all the other galaxies know to us.The superuniverse of Orvonton contains other universes.At this time man is about to find out that what he thought was the known universes size was off by 17,000,000 percent.This dicovery will come about soon,mark my word.Our solar system contains 12 planets and 3 of them can support life as we know.Which three I do not know.Soon the existance of three more planets will soon be discovered.Please do not discount this book it is the most powerful revelation since Jesus of Nazareth.Almost every date given in the book has been found to be accurate. the rest we have no way of checking.Tanks for your input.


    Also go If you wish to register and post questions and topics to be seen and answered my many book readers and foundation members.
  13. dumb college kid Registered Member

    again machiaventa you have made a string of very incredible assertions. Please back them up with evidence. Unless you do I will have no choice but to diregard not only your "foundation" but also you as a credible source of information. This "Urantia" thing is a spot on your reputation here.
  14. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    To the D.C.K.
    As with all things there is a certain amount of faith.I could not prove with out a doubt that the sun would rise on 4/11/00.Yet you would believe me if I told you it would.And in the end I would be proven correct.Reading just bits here and there of this book will only wet your curiosity or dampen your ability to comprehend it completely.Just try reading the history of Urantia section first then tell where my credibilty stands.Remember I thought you were smart,please reaffirm my suspicion.

    Paul/Machiaventa Speaks
  15. dumb college kid Registered Member

    equating a claim such as "we will soon find that our estimates of the size of the universe are off by 17,000,000%" to "the sun will rise on 4/11/00" does not demonstrate sound logic. One, based on the very basis of the scientific method (the future will resemble the past), the sunrise assertion is correct. One must admit that the other is sadly unbelievable. However, just so that I do not argue from blindness, I will look over more of the Urantia book. Though assuming that the future will resemble the past, from what I see so far, the book will only continue to be filled with rediculous jargon about unproveable and downright absurd assertions.
  16. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    That is all I ask,for doubt will soon be replaced by awe.Remember that the books will give you the true details to many stories in the bible also.Especially the life and teachins of Christ Michael/Jesus of Nazareth.

    Machiaventa Speaks

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  17. Tony H2o Registered Senior Member


    Your stance against the Urantia book is welcome. I have held my tongue but now feel compelled to enter the discussion.

    I have read a fair amount of this so called revelation and answer to all questions. I have found similar to what you are encountering, a cleverly worded document that offers a plausible account of our existence to naive readers.

    Some of the proported facts are based on know science and can therefore be substantiated, however there is also a great amount of pseudo science included and to anyone who is not trained in these areas it can all blur into probability.

    On the spiritual front it offers nothing more or new to what has been on offer in the past by similar although less comprehensive works. It speaks of each soul on each planet or each mortal being able through becoming spiritually aware and having their natures transformed by a "personalised thought adjuster" transcending through spiritual levels to become as one with the ancient of days or the father as did Jesus.

    Of the focal point of the Christian faith which is the cross of Christ, His blood spilt for our sins, His lash's endured for our healing and his physical body resurrection which defeated death and hell it says:

    Let us forever clarify the concept of the resurrection of Jesus by making the following statements:

    1. His material or physical body was not a part of the resurrected personality. When Jesus came forth from the tomb, his body of flesh remained undisturbed in the sepulchre. He emerged from the burial tomb without moving the stones before the entrance and without disturbing the seals of Pilate.

    2. He did not emerge from the tomb as a spirit nor as Michael of Nebadon; he did not appear in the form of the Creator Sovereign, such as he had had before his incarnation in the likeness of mortal flesh on Urantia.

    3. He did come forth from this tomb of Joseph in the very likeness of the morontia personalities of those who, as resurrected morontia ascendant beings, emerge from the resurrection halls of the first mansion world of this local system of Satania. And the presence of the Michael memorial in the center of the vast court of the resurrection halls of mansonia number one leads us to conjecture that the Master's resurrection on Urantia was in some way fostered on this, the first of the system mansion worlds.


    The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the "empty tomb." It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

    The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the "dust to dust," without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

    The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.



    Although preaching a form of Holiness and Christ this book denies the very literal and physical resurection of my Lord and Saviour Jesus and by so doing it seeks to contort the appearance of a physically risen Jesus to Mary and then to the 12 whereby the doubtful Thomas thrusts his hand to Jesus side and feels the scar of His piercing.

    It seeks to place another Gospel before the reader of which the true word of God warns, and by doing so it seeks to lessen the power of the Gospel of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 11:
    3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.
    4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with him.

    Galatians 1:
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
    10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
    11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
    12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Acts 2:
    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 17:
    2 And Paul, as he generally did, went in to them, and on three Sabbath days had discussions with them from the holy Writings,
    3 Saying to them clearly and openly that Christ had to be put to death and come back to life again; and that this Jesus, whom, he said, I am preaching to you, is the Christ.

    Romans 8:
    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    1 Corinthians 15:
    12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Colossians 2:
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    Colossians 3:
    1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

    John 20:
    19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
    21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
    24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
    25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
    26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
    27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    The word risen that is used has the following meanings and infers a physical resurection.

    450 anisthmi anistemi an-is'-tay-mee

    from 303 and 2476; TDNT-1:368,60; v

    AV-arise 38, rise 19, rise up 16, rise again 13, raise up 11, stand up 8, raise up again 2, misc 5; 112

    1) to cause to rise up, raise up
    1a) raise up from laying down
    1b) to raise up from the dead
    1c) to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward
    2) to rise, stand up
    2a) of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground
    2b) of persons seated
    2c) of those who leave a place to go elsewhere
    2c1) of those who prepare themselves for a journey
    2d) of the dead
    3) at arise, appear, stand forth
    3a) of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents
    3b) of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others
    3c) to rise up against any one

    1453 egeirw egeiro eg-i'-ro

    probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); TDNT-2:333,195; v

    AV-rise 36, raise 28, arise 27, raise up 23, rise up 8, rise again 5, raise again 4, misc 10; 141

    1) to arouse, cause to rise
    1a) to arouse from sleep, to awake
    1b) to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
    1c) to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
    1d) to raise up, produce, cause to appear
    1d1) to cause to appear, bring before the public
    1d2) to raise up, stir up, against one
    1d3) to raise up i.e. cause to be born
    1d4) of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect

    386 anastasiv anastasis an-as'-tas-is

    from 450; TDNT-1:371,60; n f

    AV-resurrection 39, rising again 1, that should rise 1, raised to life again + 1537 1; 42

    1) a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)
    2) a rising from the dead
    2a) that of Christ
    2b) that of all men at the end of this present age
    2c) the resurrection of certain ones history who were restored to life (#Heb 11:35)

    Resurrection of Christ

    One of the cardinal facts and doctrines of the gospel. If Christ be not risen, our faith is vain #1Co 15:14 The whole of the New Testament revelation rests on this as an historical fact. On the day of Pentecost Peter argued the necessity of Christ's resurrection from the prediction in #Ps 16:1ff. #Ac 2:24-28 In his own discourses, also, our Lord clearly intimates his resurrection #Mt 20:19 Mr 9:9 #Mr 14:28 Lu 18:33 Joh 2:19-22 The evangelists give circumstantial accounts of the facts connected with that event, and the apostles, also, in their public teaching largely insist upon it. Ten different appearances of our risen Lord are recorded in the New Testament. They may be arranged as follows:
    1. To Mary Magdalene at the sepulchre alone. This is recorded at length only by John #Joh 20:11-18 and alluded to by Mark #Mr 16:9-11
    2. To certain women, "the other Mary, " Salome, Joanna, and others, as they returned from the sepulchre. Matthew #Mt 28:1-10 alone gives an account of this. (Comp.) #Mr 16:1-8 Lu 24:1-11
    3. To Simon Peter alone on the day of the resurrection. #Lu 24:34 1Co 15:5
    4. To the two disciples on the way to Emmaus on the day of the resurrection, recorded fully only by Luke #Lu 24:13-35 Comp. #Mr 16:12,13
    5. To the ten disciples (Thomas being absent) and others "with them, " at Jerusalem on the evening of the resurrection day. One of the evangelists gives an account of this appearance, #Joh 20:19-24
    6. To the disciples again (Thomas being present) at Jerusalem #Mr 16:14-18 Lu 24:33-40 Joh 20:26-28 See also #1Co 15:5
    7. To the disciples when fishing at the Sea of Galilee. Of this appearance also John #Joh 21:1-23 alone gives an account.
    8. To the eleven, and above 500 brethren at once, at an appointed place in Galilee #1Co 15:6 comp. #Mt 28:16-20
    9. To James, but under what circumstances we are not informed #1Co 15:7
    10. To the apostles immediately before the ascension. They accompanied him from Jerusalem to Mount Olivet, and there they saw him ascend "till a cloud received him out of their sight" #Mr 16:19 Lu 24:50-52 Ac 1:4-10 It is worthy of note that it is distinctly related that on most of these occasions our Lord afforded his disciples the amplest opportunity of testing the fact of his resurrection. He conversed with them face to face. They touched him #Mt 28:9 Lu 24:39 Joh 20:27 and he ate bread with them #Lu 24:42,43 Joh 21:12,13
    11. In addition to the above, mention might be made of Christ's manifestation of himself to Paul at Damascus, who speaks of it as an appearance of the risen Saviour #Ac 9:3-9,17 1Co 15:8 9:1 It is implied in the words of Luke #Ac 1:3 that there may have been other appearances of which we have no record.

    The resurrection is spoken of as the act
    1. of God the Father #Ps 16:10 Ac 2:24 3:15 Ro 8:11 Eph 1:20 #Col 2:12 Heb 13:20
    2. of Christ himself #Joh 2:19 10:18
    3. of the Holy Spirit #1Pe 3:18

    The resurrection is a public testimony of Christ's release from his undertaking as surety, and an evidence of the Father's acceptance of his work of redemption. It is a victory over death and the grave for all his followers. The importance of Christ's resurrection will be seen when we consider that if he rose the gospel is true, and if he rose not it is false. His resurrection from the dead makes it manifest that his sacrifice was accepted. Our justification was secured by his obedience to the death, and therefore he was raised from the dead #Ro 4:25 His resurrection is a proof that he made a full atonement for our sins, that his sacrifice was accepted as a satisfaction to divine justice, and his blood a ransom for sinners. It is also a pledge and an earnest of the resurrection of all believers #Ro 8:11 #1Co 6:14 15:47-49 Php 3:21 1Jo 3:2 As he lives, they shall live also. It proved him to be the Son of God, inasmuch as it authenticated all his claims #Joh 2:19 10:17 "If Christ did not rise, the whole scheme of redemption is a failure, and all the predictions and anticipations of its glorious results for time and for eternity, for men and for angels of every rank and order, are proved to be chimeras. 'But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept.' Therefore the Bible is true from Genesis to Revelation. The kingdom of darkness has been overthrown, Satan has fallen as lightning from heaven, and the triumph of truth over error, of good over evil, of happiness over misery is for ever secured." Hodge. With reference to the report which the Roman soldiers were bribed #Mt 28:12-14 to circulate concerning Christ's resurrection, "his disciples came by night and stole him away while we slept, " Matthew Henry in his "Commentary, " under #Joh 20:1-10 fittingly remarks, "The grave-clothes in which Christ had been buried were found in very good order, which serves for an evidence that his body was not 'stolen away while men slept.' Robbers of tombs have been known to take away 'the clothes' and leave the body; but none ever took away 'the body' and left the clothes, especially when they were 'fine linen' and new #Mr 15:46 Any one would rather choose to carry a dead body in its clothes than naked. Or if they that were supposed to have stolen it would have left the grave-clothes behind, yet it cannot be supposed they would find leisure to 'fold up the linen.' "

    Resurrection of the Dead

    1. Will be simultaneous both of the just and the unjust #Da 12:2 #Joh 5:28,29 Ro 2:6-16 2Th 1:6-10
    2. The qualities of the resurrection body will be different from those of the body laid in the grave #1Co 15:53,54 Php 3:21
    3. but its identity will nevertheless be preserved. It will still be the same body #1Co 15:42-44 which rises again.
    4. As to the nature of the resurrection body,
    a. it will be spiritual #1Co 15:44 i.e., a body adapted to the use of the soul in its glorified state, and to all the conditions of the heavenly state;
    b. glorious, incorruptible, and powerful #1Co 15:54
    c. like unto the glorified body of Christ #Php 3:21
    d. immortal #Re 21:4
    5. Christ's resurrection secures and illustrates that of his people."
    a. Because his resurrection seals and consummates his redemptive power; and the redemption of our persons involves the redemption of our bodies #Ro 8:23
    b. Because of our federal and vital union with Christ #1Co 15:21,22 1Th 4:14
    c. Because of his Spirit which dwells in us making our bodies his members #1Co 6:15 Ro 8:11
    d. Because Christ by covenant is Lord both of the living and the dead #Ro 14:9
    e. This same federal and vital union of the Christian with Christ likewise causes the resurrection of the believer to be similar to as well as consequent upon that of Christ" #1Co 15:49 #Php 3:21 1Jo 3:2
  18. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    Dear H2o,
    When I started to read your replie I was giving the benifit I give all people,that is I presume them to be intelligent until they show me otherwise.Well mr. water the more I read your comment the more I came to the conclusion that your not as smart as you think.Too believe in a loving God and in the same breath speak of a hell which you attribute to his creation is absurd.To say there is a devil is anthropomorphic.The invention of hell and a devil might have been neccessary at one time,it is certainly not needed now.You seem to exhibit the same fault as most of mankind,the inability to change or cope with change.The DCK is probaly smart enough to see through your ranting and ravings.What where you afraid of?That he might find the Urantia book interesting enough to read it all the way through.It is obvious that you did not,or you would not have made such absurd statements.People like you probably believe that stigmata is the work of God.

    Machiaventa Speaks/

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  19. Crisp Gone 4ever Registered Senior Member

    Hi Paul,

    Now this is an interesting reply... One member of a religious sect (and lets not forget that the book of Urantia gives its own religious interpretation of reality) accusing that a member of another religious sect (Christianity - or whatever you wanna call it) is wrong... Hello kettel ? You're black.

    As a member of yet another religious sect (let's call this one "scientific community") I suggest dropping the "I'm right and you're wrong" discussion before it even develops since fundamental paradigmatic differences as shown here cannot be debated with common sense (suggested reading: Kuhn, Thomas Samuel "Structure of Scientific Revolutions", 1968, New York).

    This is not to prevent the undoubtably very educating and entertaining discussion, but hopefully to make everybody realize the truth: nobody is right! (including the christian, urantian, scientific or any other community). Perhaps this would be a more interesting point to debate about: the final goal, and the achieving of this goal, of any form of science.



    [This message has been edited by Crisp (edited April 12, 2000).]
  20. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    Dear Crisp,
    You are so right.I only wish to state that maybe we both might be right about the same things.What I should have said is that I believe the Bible is written for people who never question things or ask for details.For most people to understand the Urantia book,they must have an excellent education.To understand the bible you only have to believe in one's own particular secular ideology.Insn't strange that both books have almost the same set of commandments.Any way I never intened to argue just to point out there is another source of information out there .

    Machiaventa Speaks

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  21. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member


    Think again! Kuhn is old news. Suggested reading: Logic of Scientific Discovery by Karl R. Popper, <a href="">here's a link to the page for it.</a>

    Easy: a complete theory of everything is the final goal. Achievability is a matter of assymptotic approximation (see the book above for details.)

    PS: Popper's self-proclaimed destruction of inductivism doesn't stand, and I can have him for lunch on that issue any day; however, his analysis of falsificationism is pretty good, which is what's relevant here.

    I am; therefore I think.

    [This message has been edited by Boris (edited April 13, 2000).]
  22. Tony H2o Registered Senior Member

    Dear Paul,

    Thankyou for taking the time to read my post, I am not surprised in the least by the conclusion you reached regarding it and in actual fact I was expecting something along these lines. Your presumption about my lack of intelligence is taking the argument away from the topic and trying to place it at a personal and individual level of insult. I will not stoop to name calling or attack of an individuals character or level of intelligence, I will however address specifics of what you have said regarding my Lord and God and regarding the stance of the Urantia book. If you are going to take this as a personal attack then I suggest you stop reading NOW as what I have to say may upset your views.

    Too believe in a loving God and in the same breath speak of a hell which you attribute to his creation is absurd.To say there is a devil is anthropomorphic.The invention of hell and a devil might have been neccessary at one time,it is certainly not needed now.

    Sorry Paul but the place called Hell is real and the person of the devil, satan, lucifer or what ever title you wish to give him is also real. The Urantia book is quick to use all the nice stuff that Jesus said about heaven and how to have a relationship with God but it ignores the whole counsel of God. Jesus himself spoke of hell as a literal place, He gave many parables of its reality, He taught that the way to avoid it was through obedience of God the Father in love and believing in Him as the lamb of God sent to die for the sins of mankind, "If you love me you will obey my commands". The urantia book shy's away from the truth and reality of this place just as it does from the truth of who Jesus really is and what He really achieved through His death and resurrection. Its quick to attempt to place itself as an authority on these matters through plagiarising quotes and Scriptures and distorting their original context and authority from the Word of God but it fail miserably to show the whole counsel of God the Father by dancing around eternal issues. The same Jesus it claims to have in depth knowledge of is the one who spoke strongly on the topics of death, hell and the devil in an effort to show people that the wages of their sins would be death. Sound to harsh? I would suggest that people try looking it up in the Bible themselves and find the reality of what Jesus taught and not just some fictitious story wrapped up in marshmallow words to aplease the conscious of fallen mankind.

    If this book is going to make reference to the works and deeds of my saviour and misrepresent them then I will stand against it and speak the truth of what God the Father has shown. It can not claim to be an authority or the "answer to all" when it fails to address specifics of what Jesus said. So to help you and others out a bit with some more ranting and ravings please read some things that Jesus said about these topics.

    But before I do if you want to know how Love fits into this its because the Lord corrects those He Loves, and if we are obedient to Him we accept that correction. So why does he correct? What does he correct us for? He corrects us because we all have sinned and fallen short of His glory, He corrects us in love so that we can be brought back to a place of restoration with Him through the life of Christ, the death of Christ and the resurrection of Christ. He corrects because He knows what the consequences of our sins will be, eternal separation from Him. The wages of our sin of our lack of obedience, of our arrogance is eternal death and no one knows this more than God. Hell was not created for man it was created for satan and his demons, and we by our transgressions have placed ourselves into the camp of satan. We have transgressed Gods set laws, we are the transgressors because we have chosen to go our own ways and not to follow or live within the laws that have been laid down by God the Father. We have chosen the enemy as our master and the only way out is through faith in the cross of Christ and His resurrection. You know us irrational Christians always harp on about Gods love but there are few who really understand what price was paid and why. God so loved the world, He so loves each and every person that He gave His Son as a ransom for our sins. His son in obedience paid the price for our transgressions and by doing so released those who choose to receive from the bondage of sin and death, from the wages of our sinfulness which are eternal damnation. Hard pill to swallow isn't it? Hard to admit that we have blown it hey? Hard to say that we as mankind with all our technology and inventions don't got all the answers for the worlds problems..... God knew this would happen way before He created us yet He being true to His creative nature still made man as well as satan. And knowing that we would blow it He even provided a way out if we only but receive it. JESUS, the real reason He came and the real victory He won.

    Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
    Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
    Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
    Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
    Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
    Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
    Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
    Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
    Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
    Mark 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
    Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
    Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
    Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
    Mark 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
    Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
    Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
    Luke 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
    Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
    Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
    Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
    John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
    Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
    1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    1 Corinthians 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
    2 Corinthians 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
    2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
    1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
    2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
    1 Timothy 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
    Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
    Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
    Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
    Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
    Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    What where you afraid of?That he might find the Urantia book interesting enough to read it all the way through.It is obvious that you did not,or you would not have made such absurd statements.People like you probably believe that stigmata is the work of God.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    I hope that answers your question as to who I fear and revere.

    People like me........mmmmmm, I assume by what followed you mean narrow minded, bigoted, religious, unintelligent so and so's. Well people like me are not to worried by the name calling or inferences made towards us, we do however stand up and shout when someone or something claims to represent God the Father but fails to teach the whole counsel of God. That is it fails to show to a lost and dying world the truth of the character and nature of God the great I AM.

    Paul I would suggest that if you really want to make comments about me as a person then you read some of the history on me in this place, it will give you more ammo to work with.

    I pray that my Lord will cause you to see the truth rather than to just hear what Machiaventa Speaks.


    Tony H2o
  23. paul defourneaux Registered Senior Member

    Boiling H2o,
    I certainly did get you going din't I?Tell me this,do you type all of that stuff or do you attach it from some file?All that you have shown me is nothing but parables and euphanisms.Tell me one place where Jesus spoke of hell in the bible.Not where some disciple said he did.The devil you speak of was cast into the prison world on Jerusem and at this time is being judged or awaiting judgement.There is no Hell,there never was.There is however a place called earth which one could pretty much aproximate hell,as the judeo-christian version states it to be.Have you noticed that the American prison system is the archetype of the judeo-christian version of what hell out to be like.My God loves his children as a father loves his,God would never stop loving us no matter what sins we seem to commit.All he asks is faith in his love to enjoy all that he has planned for us,and to do his divine will.Christ Michael/Jesus could have left this world in what ever way he chose.He did not have to die for our sins.If he did as you say then all of those who had sinned are dead and long gone,have you ever thought about that.Thankyou for your input though.


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    [This message has been edited by paul defourneaux (edited April 12, 2000).]

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