The alpha male

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by birch, Feb 11, 2016.

  1. zgmc Registered Senior Member

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    I have never cheated, and I know that none of my close friends have ever cheated on their wives either. There are plenty of men out there who actually respect their partner.
     
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  3. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    If you want different results, maybe you should try something different. Isn't doing the same thing, expecting different results a mark of insanity?
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. The irony of this thread is palpable.

    I really like Alpha Males because they're hunky and make me feel secure.
    I know Alpha males are surrounded by lots of women who want them.
    I know Alpha males tend to be unfaithful.
    I have recently been heartbroken (see other thread).
    Most of my other friends have the same story.

    The disconnects here are
    "I want something that I know will hurt me"
    and
    "I am not satisfied with something that is actually better for me and less likely to hurt me".
     
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    We all seek a trade-off between that which gives the most pleasure and that which gives the least pain.
    'tis a tricky balance in a strong wind.
     
  8. birch Valued Senior Member

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    What makes you think i havent? Twas fake and unsatisfactory for other reasons.
     
  9. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Now this is more real. Ive learned life really is nothing more than a series of moments in time. There might be truth in that moment, but nothing else is guaranteed. Some are fortunate and some are okay with going through the motions until the next wave hits.

    Even if there are faithful people, what is left for the rest realistically? Its like musical chairs, somebodys going to get the shaft or choose to opt out. Besides, compatibility is so complicated just because one has certain check points on a list of requirements, doesnt mean they are for you or you will even like eachother.

    Ironicly, on the flipside its just as fake and disingenous to pretend you are attracted when you are not. That never works either. The heart has an intelligence of its own. Its not fulfilled just by mind over matter. You can apply logic easily to every other area of your life but in matters of personal relationships, its a whole different ball game. But strangely also beauty of it.
     
  10. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Thank you. I've been waiting for someone to have that epiphany. Humans have always been an extremely social species, because we learned early on that we accomplish a lot more, a lot faster, and a lot better, if we collaborate. Collaboration among a large number of people almost always requires leadership, so somebody ends up being leader. But as often as not, the leader is chosen according to his level of talent for the specific activity in question. The fellow who can read the telltales and lead us to the female mammoth with a lame calf is probably not also the fellow who can find a cave that's relatively easy to defend from predators... or the one who knows how to knap flint to make the best spearpoints.

    Fast-forward to the present. If a woman wants several children, she's going to want a mate who is a good provider and does not recoil from a filthy toddler or a screaming adolescent. But if she wants to serve in Congress, she's going to need a mate who can keep the home fires burning while she's away.
    Are we defining an alpha male as one who would look good in a music video? Or one who can carry his weight in an industrial society? Some women want the one, some the other. The latter is more likely to have a lifelong relationship.
    In the five-level system of "Brave New World," they're called "epsilons." The gammas are only halfway down the chart.
    Like many Americans, I've moved around a lot. So every decade or so, I have a whole new city full of people to charm and impress. I try my best to treat them with respect, cooperation and a healthy component of humor, so I tend to be accepted by most of them and liked by many.
    I'm so sorry for your unfortunate experiences. While almost everyone I know has been divorced and remarried at least once, it's surprisingly rare for the reason to be clandestine infidelity. In a thriving civilization like ours, on the cusp between the twilight of the Industrial Era and the dawn of the Information Age, family units go through a microcosm of the same forces that shape society. Just as some manufacturing-based corporations are struggling to avoid being sold to the Chinese, some families are torn apart by the members' different outlooks on the future.
    You must be young enough to be my granddaughter. Good looks become increasingly irrelevant as we get older and realize that we are not easily recognizable in our high school yearbook photo. As for charisma, it comes in a wide variety of flavors, and everybody prefers a slightly different flavor.
    Homo sapiens has in instinct for monogamy, although it isn't as strong as it is in many other animal species. Have you ever wondered why human females, almost unique among mammals, can copulate when not in estrus? It's because the young of our species have the longest childhood of any mammal: roughly fifteen years, compared to five for elephants and only two for whales. This is not a responsibility that a woman can handle by herself. By being capable of satisfying their father sexually at almost any time, it reduces his compulsion to go out looking for someone else.

    Moreover, because of another near-unique feature, our ability to stay alive long after our childbearing years are behind us, we have a whole second generation of elders ("grandparents") to help both the mother and the father keep up with their exhausting duties. Again, this is not 100% unique in the animal kingdom, but it's damn rare.
    Thank you! Especially now, five Paradigm Shifts from our Paleolithic ancestors (the Agricultural Revolution, the Building of Cities, the Bronze Age, the Iron Age and the dawning Electronic Age), our civilization needs a wide variety of skills, and the people who excel at them are today's "alphas."
    That certainly conforms to my own observations. Of course there are many men who lose their way once or twice in their lives, but when they come back, who's going to call them "polygamous?" As far as I'm concerned, the essence of monogamy is to put your family first. We live a long time so anyone might lose his (or her) way-- briefly and not very often--but if it doesn't cause irreparable damage to the family structure, why should it repudiate his (or her) monogamy credentials?
     
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  11. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Right. Like going through life making decisions or choices based on not getting hurt is living. I actually have been with someone before once where it was just a bland friendship that was just safe basically. Quality is sure not measured in time together or longevity, thats for sure. People who have endured loveless marriages and tepid relationships is not what i would consider living either. No romance, no love, no passion and nothing but just existing together. Even if passion lasts shorter i will go for that. Never again will i sell out or settle like that. Its like being dead.
     
  12. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Please dont make me laugh. If there is any excruciatingly obvious reason why apparently 'pillars of society' have lasting relationships is because the image, reputation and especially business aspect of their relationship takes precedence. Actually just as sorry for them. Selling out for different reasons.


    Was clinton faithful? How many wives of politicians have stuck by their man? How many wives of religious leaders never divorce even helping their spouse cover shit up or forgive? How many wives of corporate heads put up with the philandering, prostitutes etc just for status and money? Kids? Image? I could just go on and on with the reality because its just the tip of the iceberg. They are not better or stronger women and successful, educated men arent either. It has zero relation to monogamy or the reasons why people stay together which may have nothing to do with still being in love either. They are just as guilty if putting up a front if not moreso.

    Einstein has been heralded the most ingenious in the last century and he was a lousy husband, father and womanizer. Just because you are excellent in one area, you can just be crap in another.

    My family is very successful and has family friends who are millionaires with successful businesses. Observing their interaction and relationship, nothing to write home about either. Dull to say the least but orderly. Very orderly. Different strokes for different folks.
     
  13. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    After reading this thread and your other one, I'm not surprised.
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Beatcha to it!
    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/the-alpha-male.155307/#post-3359570

    birch: not deliberately trying to give you a hard time, but I too saw the other post first, which sounds like you were surprised and heart-broken, evoking sympathy. Then this thread came along and now it seems like you went into the situation eyes open, and would likely do so again.
     
  15. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Why do they call it the 'one'? Because it is very difficult to find or meet the one for you. Some are lucky and fortunate and do but many dont.

    Why do the say 'every rose has its thorns'? Because every person or relationship has its problems, compromises and differences, some irreconcilable.

    Its hard to find or maintain that balance between security and love. Life is just very complicated. You can love someone and not be compatible, you can be with someone and not love them. You can force any situation, but that doesnt make it genuine either. Its just what you are willing to sacrifice or can deal with which is different for every person.

    For me, at the end of the day, i can be alone by myself. I dont need another to be alone with me just to have someone.

    Also, romantic relationships are the most challenging because it requires the physical attraction factor plus the default compatibility requirements and that is the full platter which is rare. "The one."
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  16. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Its very enlightening when you penetrate beyond the 'veil' which we perceive as mundane reality or truth.

    I can recall two, including the last 'badboy' whispering to me at the end to keep on 'fighting' and having that hidden deep understanding, love and even respect that people need to live their own truth even if you cant take the journey together anymore.

    And another significant one, when i felt the most excruciating pain and felt alone. he called with one important message at the moment i was about to lose hope and that message was, 'you will never be alone..' we both knowing we will never be together physically again or choose to.

    The intimacy and 'knowing' with those you really connect with has no real physical barriers. Love has no barriers. Thats the illusion.

    The so-called friend, just basically associate; nothing, because never that deep of a connection.

    No one is truly alone though we have our pain and we all need someone that we can connect with.

    The random person you pass by on a street or even a person sitting in prison believing they are alone. We are all connected to someone even if not physically present or connected on some level. Reality has many layers and its deeper than we can see.

    What attracted you to someone or what caused the connection could have been precious and true, even if it cannot endure on a physical plane or the obstacles make it impossible, both external and because of other aspects within our nature. It does not detract from or void that love that was true.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  17. birch Valued Senior Member

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    There is a price to pay for every decision or not we make whether we realize it or not.

    Like i said earlier, everyone has different priorities and what they are willing to sacrifice. But make no mistake there is one, even the seemingly right choices.

    They are also all playing the 'game' whether its intellectually processed or recognized from the lowest to the highest on the totem pole. Risk/reward and sacrifice/benefit.

    Sometimes, these sacrifices are very conscious such as a monk who decides to forego a regular life accepting celibacy for a higher calling, for example.

    But sadly, often its not. The catch-22 is just forced on us by the realities of life.

    Some people live their whole lives with a bunch of 'shoulds' while being unaware on some level they have cut off their own circulation or part of themselves never knowing really what they really want or who they are. Sometimes this is a conscious choice. Some people never know passion, even if its not something they think they care about, its still a reality of life they are missing out on. Again, there are pros and cons to every choice and to every experience. Nature determines where the experience of heaven/hell lies and often in the most unexpected or wild of places which artificial society has no real power over because nature is the only true power.

    Just like there are two sides to every coin and the duality in life is inescapable, even if you ignore what you are missing for something else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  18. Edont Knoff Registered Senior Member

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    There is a number of social studies how females chose partners. There is a hirarchy of males, but different than the above mentioned wolves. Males are rather rated by their ability to bring social status, safety and some wealth. Women almost always look for partners who are higher in social rank, wealthier or able to establish safety for the family.

    Humans also group, if there is no pressure from the outside, and these groups are often a size of about 12 members. This size has a number of reasons, briefly, a day has only so much time, and with 12 people, there can be good and frequent contact, if groups grow bigger, they tend to split because people aren't able to bond equally well with all group members and two cliques begin to form ... it still can happen that the group stays as a group, but it's then a meta-group, consisting of two cliques, working together. The number 12 is debatable. 10? 15? Might work as well. No more than 20 probablay, that is somewhat certain and definitely more than 5.

    Inside the group there uses to be a hierarchy - or several. There might be different leaders for different questions. But group members have a good sense of "who has the say" in certain aspects, and many are willing to follow, because at times it is better to keep peace in the group, even if the leader is not a particularly liked person - just the fact that they are willing to lead and take the blame for mistakes, is often enough to make others follow.

    We humans sure have more complicated group structures than wolves do. And it seems, there are several options of well working group structures, they are not all the same. But most come with a hierarchy, or several hierarchies, and "people know their places".

    We still have a sense of an alpha - that just doesn't have to be the most violent. Sometimes it's an old person who is very experienced and wise. Sometimes it is a goood manager, who is accepted as leader, because he can run the group better than others. Sometimes it is a caretaker or diplomat who can resolve social tensions in the group very well.

    And a group can easily have all three, being "alpha" depending on the situation when their skill set is needed, and be a common member in other situations.
     
  19. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Yes and no. In the lower animal kingdom, its all about survival.

    Since human consciousness is much more developed, the requirements become more broadened and sophisticated. Referring back to maslows heirarchy of needs, humans desire to self-actualize beyond this experience as our basic needs have been satisfied. So an alpha in society must have more desirable qualities than just an ability to protect, feed, or provide status. Because our emotional development is also much more sophisticated, the alpha must be able to arouse and provide the most heightened pleasure and experiences to keep a female truly interested. Humans in industrialized societies are past basic needs and protection. This is why the concept of love is so developed and profound among homo sapiens versus lower animals and also why a female may not be 'in love' with a provider with status just for its own sake. The benchmark is much higher.
     
  20. Edont Knoff Registered Senior Member

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    I was talking about humans.
     
  21. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

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    So, where are these studies? And were they, like most psychological studies, performed almost exclusively on white undergraduate students from the USA?
     
  22. Edont Knoff Registered Senior Member

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    I can't give sources, so far I didn't care enough to keep the references. The only thing I know are statistics derived from dating websites.

    But google finds things ...

    Source: http://jcc.sagepub.com/content/26/6/728.short

    So the keywords that I mentioned, social status, and wealth are backed by this, safety was not mentioned.

    And, these studies are not totally obscure, one can find them through google.
     
  23. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Let me put it this way, how things may have been defined before can slowly change right before our eyes.

    Humans do not define what is an alpha. Nature does just as you cant stop a line of people going to a particular restaurant because the food is better versus yours. Well, you may if you have the power but that doesnt negate the truth. Brute force and power is not enough to be an alpha male.

    As humans are complicated, you would have to define in what area or sphere are they an alpha.

    A wolf or lion pack may be straightforward as the leader may be able to determine mating and provision of resources but humans are more diversified as we are more complicated.

    We also can discern wants vs needs clearly and what is of use vs what is desired. This is why a man can be used for money by a woman while she loves another just as a man can. Scenario: young girl using an old man as a sugar daddy for money and gives it to her boyfriend, do you think the one shes using is an alpha or still? No, because alphas have control even with influence and if one cannot influence anymore, they are no longer an alpha.

    Alphas are both in control and desired at the same time, however long their run is.

    So who is the alpha? Thats why in general terms it would be status, money, intelligence along with characteristics women would be attracted to.
     

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