Terrorism as "collateral damages"

Yeah cutting off the toe hasn't done anything to change the serial killing has it?
 
I'm trying to communicate here. I think the imagery of a killer howling about his cut off toe as he continues to push broken bottles into vaginas and slice off breasts with wires, effectively communicates how I feel. A bit graphic, but nowadays people want imagery over reality.

I wanted to avoid this discussion, in fact, I tried to, because it will just be another excuse to ban me. So I guess I have only myself to blame for feeding the trolls.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah cutting off the toe hasn't done anything to change the serial killing has it?
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I'll repeat:

I'm trying to point out that if you look upon US civilians as collateral damage don't be surprised when people in the West do the same and vice verse.

When you speak of the twin towers as mere 'buildings' you speak with the same desensitized tone as the americans you think of as monsters...or toes.

If you don't want others to think all muslims as terrorists then why do you think of all americans as serial killers? Surely the toe of a serial killer is just as guilty as the rest of the man? Or do you consider the toe of a serial killer an innocent 'member'? No pun intended:p

So by your equation the toe is a part of the whole the way every muslim is part of Islam. Since there is an ideological and actual war with Islam then I am to assume what exactly?

That all muslims are terrorists, condone it even if they don't act on it?:shrug:

I mean does this guy speak for you too?

"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims," he wrote in the London-based Arab daily newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat."
 
Do I consider American citizens to be separate from their country? No they produce the people, train, fund, arm and support them. If the nation is a killer and its a democratic nation ruled by law and representation, who is accountable for its acts if not its people?

Like a broken toe, maybe there are parts of it which don't support or condone the acts. But they are small enough to be largely impotent and entirely irrelevant. Americans are not under dictatorship, unlike Israelis they don't even have compulsory military service. They volunteer for this and are considered heroes by their country for doing so.
 
S.A.M. said:
I'm trying to communicate here. I think the imagery of a killer howling about his cut off toe as he continues to push broken bottles into vaginas and slice off breasts with wires, effectively communicates how I feel. A bit graphic, but nowadays people want imagery over reality.

I wanted to avoid this discussion, in fact, I tried to, because it will just be another excuse to ban me. So I guess I have only myself to blame for feeding the trolls.
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Since when have you feared bans?

Anyway you referring to americans as the 'toes of a of a serial killer' really doesn't touch the heart of the matter which is whether you would include the deaths of innocent civilians as just as horrific as the deaths of those in cross fire. They are not the same and both are unfortunate I'm sure you agree.

Who pray you are the trolls? Last I heard it was you:shrug:
 
S.A.M. said:
Do I consider American citizens to be separate from their country? No they produce the people, train, fund, arm and support them. If the nation is a killer and its a democratic nation ruled by law and representation, who is accountable for its acts if not its people?

Like a broken toe, maybe there are parts of it which don't support or condone the acts. But they are small enough to be largely impotent and entirely irrelevant.
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Ah so the Taliban who harbored suicide bombers and allowed for training camps in their country are as guilty as those innocent ones you call victims in Afghanistan? I mean are they not also 'toes' are they not?

You mean as irrelevant a broken toe as muslims who denounce terrorism?

Should I consider moderate muslims as 'Like a broken toe, maybe there are parts of it which don't support or condone the acts. But they are small enough to be largely impotent and entirely irrelevant.'?

Can you see the error in your reasoning?
 
I'm saying they are all collateral damages. The broken toe as much as the cut off breasts and the shredded vaginas and arseholes. Even though the broken toe is less likely to be fatal.

Lucysnow said:
Since when have you feared bans?
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Since they obstruct my ability to post. I also have to consider the possibility that you, like James, would try to precipitate such an event
 
S.A.M. said:
I'm saying they are all collateral damages. The broken toe as much as the cut off breasts and the shredded vaginas and arseholes.
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And so both guilty? I mean the Afghan people are the toes of the Taliban who harbored terrorists and should be held responsible for their government and the actions of their government which allowed terrorist camps to find haven in their country?

And so should it follow that one should consider moderate muslims who speak out against terrorism as 'Like a broken toe, maybe there are parts of it which don't support or condone the acts. But they are small enough to be largely impotent and entirely irrelevant.'? :bugeye:

I think you may be confused.
 
S.A.M. said:
Am I? I tend to weigh all things equally.
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Well if all things are equal then both victims from both camps are simply the 'toes' of a larger unit. This being the case I wonder why you would consider the victims of US bombings as such a big deal? I mean they are all just toes:rolleyes:
 
S.A.M. said:
Are they? I suppose one could remotely see the same amount of investment by Afghans in 9/11 as there has been by Americans in their foreign policy, government and troops.
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Well yes based on your own equation they are. They invested themselves when they help train the terrorists of 9/11 on their soil. How do you know the investment of the average american in foreign policy (they don't vote on foreign policy), or government (they didn't get to vote on the war) or the troops (they go where they are sent)?

I would say that if the average american is a toe then the Afghans must be a toe with a hang nail:D
 
How many Taliban come and speak out against terrorism?
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Is that a serious question? Do you realise that the Taliban still operates under a system of jirga law for all its decisions?

That they subordinate their acts to legal opinions? How do you think they maintain control over 80% of Afghanistan after 8 years of war with the Americans?

Anyway, see this:

n May, Darul Uloom Deoband Madrasah, located north of New Dehli, issued an unprecedented fatwa, or religious decree, against terrorism. Earlier this month, 4,000 senior Indian ulema and muftis -- Muslim clerics with the authority to interpret Islamic law -- backed the fatwa in a mass gathering in the city of Hyderabad.

Now, the Deobandi political leader in India has told RFE/RL that the next step is to gather Muslim leaders from across South Asia, including the Taliban, to discuss endorsing the antiterror decree.


It looks set to be a hot debate.

“The killing of innocents or atrocities against them is terrorism,” Maulana Mahmood Madani, general-secretary of Jamiat Ulama-i Hind (JUH), the conservative political party founded by Darul Uloom Deoband, told RFE/RL in explaining the May 31 fatwa. “That is how terrorism is defined.”
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http://www.rferl.org/content/Taliba...nce_Terror_Could_Taliban_Be_Next/1350341.html
 
Lucysnow said:
Well yes based on your own equation they are. They invested themselves when they help train the terrorists of 9/11 on their soil. How do you know the investment of the average american in foreign policy (they don't vote on foreign policy), or government (they didn't get to vote on the war) or the troops (they go where they are sent)?

I would say that if the average american is a toe then the Afghans must be a toe with a hang nail:D
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The Taliban did not train anyone. They banned all terror related activities and forbid Osama from conducting any as well


From the lips of Osama bin Laden:

USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for our guidance. I am thankful to the Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel. There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti-Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. Its friendship with the Muslim countries is just a show, rather deceit. By enticing or intimidating these countries, the United States is forcing them to play a role of its choice. Put a glance all around and you will see that the slaves of the United States are either rulers or enemies of Muslims.

The U.S. has no friends, nor does it want to keep any because the prerequisite of friendship is to come to the level of the friend or consider him at par with you. America does not want to see anyone equal to it. It expects slavery from others. Therefore, other countries are either its slaves or subordinates. However, our case is different. We have pledged slavery to God Almighty alone and after this pledge there is no possibility to become the slave of someone else. If we do that it will be disregardful to both our Sustainer and his fellow beings. Most of the world nations upholding their freedom are the religious ones, which are the enemies of the United States, or the U.S. itself considers them as its enemies.

The countries which do not agree to become the U.S. slaves are China, Iran, Libya, Cuba, Syria [Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iraq, Sudan, Indonesia, Malaysia] and Russia. Whoever committed the act of 11 September are not the friends of the American people. I have already said that we are against the American system, not against its people, whereas in these attacks, the common American people have been killed. According to my information, the death toll is much higher than what the U.S. Government has stated. But the Bush Administration does not want the panic to spread. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the U.S. system, but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive. They can be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the U.S. itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups, which are capable of causing a large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American-Jews, who are annoyed with President Bush ever since the elections in Florida and want to avenge him.

Then there are intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat. In the same way, whether it is President Bush or any other U.S. President, they cannot bring Israel to justice for its human rights abuses or to hold it accountable for such crimes. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks.

http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html
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This was an interview he gave to Ummat, a Pakistani newspaper immediately after 9/11

Investment of the average American? They vote for the representatives, pay taxes to enable them to carry out their activities and volunteer as soldiers to perpetrate the acts. They also support their troops and their government.
 
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The Taliban protected them, they allowed al-quaeda to operate and train from Afghan soil and protected Bin Laden. The US gave them the chance to hand over Bin laden and threatened to invade if they didn't. Well....
 
No they did not:

WASHINGTON — Evidence now available from various sources, including recently declassified U.S. State Department documents, shows that the Taliban regime led by Mullah Mohammad Omar imposed strict isolation on Osama bin Laden after 1998 to prevent him from carrying out any plots against the United States.

The evidence contradicts the claims by top officials of the Barack Obama administration that Mullah Omar was complicit in Osama bin Laden's involvement in the al Qaeda plot to carry out the terrorist attacks in the United States on Sep. 11, 2001. It also bolsters the credibility of Taliban statements in recent months asserting that it has no interest in al Qaeda's global jihadist aims.

http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/in...ationship-between-taliban-and-osama-bin-laden
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They also agreed to hand over Osama, even before 9/11, it was Bush who rejected them

Taliban agreed Bin Laden handover in 1998

Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over
 
S.A.M. said:
No they did not:
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Since when is 'strict isolation' the same as giving him up? The men of 9/11 were trained in Afghanistan and Pakistan but Pakistan didn't have the golden cow called bin laden.

"Al-Masri had a unique knowledge of the subject, because he worked closely with both bin Laden and the Taliban during the period. He was a member of bin Laden's Arab entourage in Afghanistan, but became much more sympathetic to the Afghan cause than bin Laden and other al Qaeda officials from 1998 through 2001."

"Mullah Omar's willingness to allow bin Laden to remain in Afghanistan was conditioned from the beginning, according to al-Masri's account, on two prohibitions on his activities: bin Laden was forbidden to talk to the media without the consent of the Taliban regime or to make plans to attack U.S. targets."

But he bin laden did anyway though 'strictly isolated'.:rolleyes:

So why didn't they just give him up when asked? I mean he did break their terms and conditions?

Interesting that its always this Omar, who was so close to bin Laden that you keep bringing up. Is it corroborated? I mean why should I believe it?

Also the article claims this:

"The Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar agreed three years ago to hand over Osama bin Laden, but changed his mind after US cruise missile attacks, the former head of Saudi Arabian intelligence said yesterday."

It says he changed his mind it didn't say that Bush wouldn't let him. Be honest.

Your second article says this:

"Returning to the White House after a weekend at Camp David, the president said the bombing would not stop, unless the ruling Taliban "turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over."

Well they didn't.
 
Since when is strict isolation training in terrorism? By that standard, the US is training Gitmo detainees in terrorism.

See my edit.
 
S.A.M. said:
Since when is strict isolation training in terrorism? By that standard, the US is training Gitmo detainees in terrorism.

See my edit.
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Because the training camps were there and the Afghans allowed them to be there

Ironically its India who identifies them:

September 19, 2001

NEW DELHI, India (CNN) -- India has been working with the United States in the days following last week's hijacking attacks by sharing the locations of what it said are terrorist training camps.

Indian intelligence officials said that for more than a decade Islamic militants have been training in Afghanistan and Pakistan for a jihad, or holy war.

Sources told CNN that more than 120 camps are operating in the two countries. The camps are small, they are easy to move, and they can be difficult to track by satellite because of the region's rough terrain.

Some Indian defense officials predicted it could take a decade for the United States to root them all out.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/19/inv.afghanistan.camp/

Since India are also complicit in US actions would you say that the citizens are also 'toes' to be cut off? Well the Pakistani militants who bombed mumbai probably would agree with you.
 
Oh please, you believe RAW information? They are as bad as the CIA. If anything, the camps were conducted by the ISI if at all, the jirga system in Afghanistan is more effective, being local, than the useless government in Pakistan The Taliban are hardly equipped to train Saudis to fly airplanes into towers. Have you seen where and how they live? What did they do? Run their horses into caves as simulation?

Its too ludicrous to take seriously

As for the toes analogy, Rajiv Gandhis assassination is probably closer to the mark. He paid for Indian intervention in Sri Lanka with his life.
 
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