Star Wars vs Star Trek

Gundam BANZAI!! ( Means long live Gundam in Japanese ). I love Gundam SEED/Destiny too, but Gundam OO is my favorite. Athrun Zala is my favorite anime character of all time.

Well.......Yeah, like I said......You're tying Star Wars' hands behind its back and expecting it to perform normally......Q is NOT a MAJOR factor in Star Trek, while Star Wars revolves around the force and the prophecy.

This is my theory for the planet destroying species ( forgot their designation sorry

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), well since it can deal 1/9th the damage, then why did they bother with formations, why not just fire individual shots instead, same effect. I think its that each ship have a specific role, and it needs ALL 9 ships to deal sufficient damage, so is like 9 different parts to a puzzle. Please correct me if you find evidence that my theory is wrong.

Who said I can't separate them? Concussion missiles......Proton Torpedoes.....Turbolaser batteries.....THE FORCE.......Gravity wells......( Maybe Kamikaze if absolutely necessary ), they would want to get the hell out of the way when they have like 50 ships on EACH of them ( Not counting the fighters and gunships ), that's how vast the Imperial Navy is....

 

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Or the Galaxy Gun, Centerpoint Station, Superlasers on Star Destroyers...and Eclipse-Class ( I think its called that ).........Shall I continue?

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Never heardof the Galaxy Gun or Centerpoint Station.
Superlasers would take out a Trek ship.
Star Destroyers they say wouldn't.
Eclipse could do it.
But you forgot the Executor.

And it's Species 8472 that you were thinking of.

But an Aggressor-class would completely destroy a Trek ship.
I'll try to post a pic of one.

 

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I don't think it worked

 

Galaxy Gun and Centerpoint are superweapons. Galaxy Gun fires a planet destroying projectile at hyperspace. Centerpoint is my favorite

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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Centerpoint_Station
If those is used then good bye Earth, and hello Coruscant ( not that I have anything against out own beautiful planet and NO, I AM NOT EMO! )

Thanks for reminding me the designation

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An ISD can destroy a trek ship, it just depends on when, where and what it is. Hell, superlasers can take out a planet can make it split up into tiny pieces!! Executor is weaker then Eclipse ( Eclipse look a lot cooler too

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)

Problem with trek shields: Ship takes damage even when shield is on. In Star Wars, you have to obliterate the shield BEFORE you can TOUCH the ship. Star Trek shields are like hardened skin, while Star Wars shields are like.....a shield ( I love to use similes and metaphors ).

 

Eclipse does look cool.

 

Federation's starship engineers need to learn how to NOT copy the UFO.

 

Yeah, at least ours look original.

 

And got the vicious feel to it...if you know what I mean....it strikes fear in the enemy's hearts.

 

The grey Star Destroyers, white cold Stormtroopers, and of course Darth Vader do strike fear into enemies.

 

The Imperial Commandos....they look WAY cooler in their new armors

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. I just got the new book in the series. Imperial Commandos: 501st in the Republic Commandos series.

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The series are AWESOME

 

Those are the guys in black right?

 

Yeah, their armor is tough, technologically advanced and cool looking.

 

Delta Squad: RC-1138 ( Boss ) RC-1140 ( Fixer ) RC-1207 ( Sev ) RC-1262 ( Scorch ), they were one of the few complete squads, until Sev went MIA on Kashyyyk. They were trained by Walon Vau

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Omega Squad: RC-1309 ( Niner ) RC-1136 ( Darman, the main character of the Republic Commando series ) RC-3222 ( Atin ) RC-8015 ( Fi ) RC-5108/8843 ( Corr, replacement for Fi ), they are a squad formed after the Battle of Geonosis, where all four members lost their original squads. They were all trained by Kal Skirata, except for Atin, who was trained by Walon Vau. Fi got brain damage during on of their missions, so Corr ( an ordinary trooper that got recruited by Skirata into the Republic Commandos after helping them out during a black ops mission on Coruscant ) replaced him. The series is centered around them.

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Are you talking about Gundam Seed or 00 or the old ones

 

Just read the rest, and I just want to say that I love Gundam aswell, my faviourites are either the original or 00 , Code Geass is really good , it had a sad ending lelouch kinda reminded me of light in death note, cause he wanted to conquer the world etc. Anyway just wanted to say that an ISD could never destroy a ST ship, mainly cause the Trek sheilds are able to deflect 99% of the damage from a turbolaser,mentioned previously by kittamaru. On the subject about 8472 I think it is something to do with the formation and the fact thst there are 8 normal ships and 1 special one that foucuses the blast,but the are very small and we all know how accurste turbolaserd are

 

We all know that. This assumes that if both groups could fight (ie, time wormhole or something), what would happen.

 

Not the same. At all. Ion Storms require a certain intensity before they threaten a starship and are phenomenons that move throughout the galaxy. Ion cannons are designed to mess with the hardwar of ships of far inferior technoloy.

Nor are Ion Cannons designed as one shot weapons for ISDs and the like. They're there to hamper ships, not immediately disable them (unless they want to capture them and are blasting the hell out of them with just the Ion Cannons).

It's the debate that never ends!
It goes on and on my friend.
Some people, started debating it not knowing what its.
And they'll keep debating it because...
It's the debate that never ends!
It goes on and on my friend.
Some people, started debating it not knowing what its.
And they'll keep debating it because...
It's the debate that never ends!
It goes on and on my friend.
Some people, started debating it not knowing what its.
And they'll keep debating it because...
It's the debate that never ends!
It goes on and on my friend.
Some people, started debating it not knowing what its.
And they'll keep debating it because...

ect.

Unfortunately, many Imperial Officers agree with you.

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Okay, first let's try and get something straight.

First off, the invasion of the Federation by the Borg involved a total of 40 ships (including the Enterprise D), with 39 of the Starships being at Wolf 359. This itself wasn't the entirety of the Federation Fleet. This is what they managed to get to their system in a matter of days. The Federation fleet numbers in the 30,000s to possibly the 45,000s.

And second, while the Empire does have a large amount of manpower (billions of soldiers and at least 1.6 million ships), most of those forces are tied down to their sector fleets in order to keep the Empire in control of their territories.

Actually the Vong might disagree with that. In any case, I really don't mind the Force working.

It can be, but it can't be used as a plot device to make an instant win.

He may be not too far off. While an Imperial is a powerful ship, its weapons aren't really that powerful compared to what the Federation can field. The highest known firepower doesn't exceede fifteen megatons and the lowest can easily range at one megaton the Venator class, the forerunner of the Imperial. And while this is no doubt a formidable display when an ISD is in full volley, the Federation has far more advanced ships.

However, looking at A Time to Stand, we learn that a 90 Isoton (Trek's basic replacement for megaton and kiloton) will create an explosion range of 800 kilometers. Now, assuming a subspace shockwave (basically, a shockwave that can occure in space and atmosphere, where as a normal shockwave from a nuke requires an atmosphere) we get about 30,000 megatons or 30 gigatons.

Now, going with the claim of 25 isotons is equal to a photon torpedo, we get 8.3 gigatons. Going with a friend of mine's claim that the 200 isoton yield for Class VI torpedoes were for the entire 38 torpedoes Voyager had, it's 1.6 gigatons.

Another method is to look at it would be Apocalypse Rising's quote where Damar claims that a few photon torpedoes aimed at Chancellor Gowron's High Command will take care of him and everyone else within a few hundred kilometers. At the very least that's 1,025 megatons and could easily jump to as high as the 30,000 megaton figure.

On the other hand, this would require 1,000 kilograms of matter and another 1,000 kilograms of antimatter and while technically possible for the Federation to wield, probably isn't what they typically use for ship to ship battle, but rather surface bombardment.

I prefer to take the DITL's view on torpedoes personally; that most torpedoes have a theoretical yield of 25 isotons (62 megatons) and an average yield of 45.88 megatons. The Federation also has higher torpedoes designed for orbital bombardment which can range in the tens of thousands (Daystrom Institute calculates the lowest result of the TDiC bombardment is 24,484 megatons--which fits into the calculations of Apocalypse Rising and A Time to Stand). Other torpedoes such as the Class VI would have a yield of 500 megatons and Quantum Torpedoes a yield of 50-71.8 Isotons (124 - 178 megatons).

With enough numbers you can, but these aren't all going to be in the same place at once. Take the average results of a small town (as per the RotS's quote of a Venator's weapon being capable of vaporizing a small town) as 5 megatons, the total output of an ISD's eight heavy guns is 80 megatons--worth two photon torpedoes and not even one Quantum. And this requires for the ISD to barrage the enemy ship when in all likelyhood (especially within fleet operations) they're going to be targeting multiple ships which are used to getting over nine times the energy from a photon torpedo.

No. It prevents hyperspace jumps. Federation starships aren't troubled by gravity wells at all. Their starships work by bending space around them so that they're lighter and a Galaxy class starship is so effective at it that they can encompass enough of a 7km moon to push it back with just their impulse engines and their tractor beam. All it would do is slow the warp speed of a starship and the drag will cease as soon as the ship is out of range.

Unfortuantely, it's rather easy for Federation ships to locate those sort of weaknesses and they're easily targeted by torpedoes. Not to mention that fleet operations includes large numbers of bombers and fighters. So it's not like the Federation's going to be puzzled over it.

I think it was all of Trek vs Wars, but it's sorta changed to the Federation & Allies to the Empire--since it's the only reasonable debate.

Again, the same problem is that a Trek ship =/ a Wars ship. And while an Ion Cannon that powerful may be a problem to some extent, the Aggressor class is much weaker than the Imperial class Star Destroyer. It wouldn't live past one torpedo.

Don't worry, you'll do better than TW Scott.

Not really. The Force, despite the spiritual aspects associating it with guidence and a higher power--doesn't really do much. The Jedi just don't easily crush the enemy because the Force says they can. Thus, while it's fine to have Jedi and Sith using their abilities, it's also unfair to say that the Force will decide who wins. It's more of a plot device than anything that has an actual meaning to a debate. Hence why that aspect is often ignored.

Actually the Empire is struggling to keep up. The fact that the Mon Calamari--who were building one frigate/light cruiser a month and a heavy cruiser every six months and managed to keep the Empire at bay is a testament to that. A great deal of their money and resources were spent on the Death Star.

You are correct.

And while this is true, the Empire requires established hyperspace lanes. Take note of the Clone Wars movie that came out around last year. Without the Hutt lanes, the Republic's ability to fight in the Outer Rim went to zip. Now granted, this is the same thing with the Federation. Without well explored space, their FTL falls to about 1.5 LY a day, when within their known space they're able to travel at far greater speeds.

Without established lanes, the Empire will have to spend time trying to map the area out.

Granted.

'Strategic brilliance' and 'Galactic Empire' are more divorced than you might think...

For most debates, people use the second pillar of Star Wars (ie, the first pillar is just the movies, the novels of the movies, the audio plays, and the Clone Wars cartoons) which includes mostly of G Canon (movies, audio plays, the novels of the movies), T Canon (Star Wars: Clone Wars Movie, Clone Wars CGI series, and the 2012 Star Wars Live Action TV series), and C canon (books, RPG books, tech manuels, and the fluff of video games).

First off, precognition isn't pin point accurate. It gives you glimpses and foggy images of the future. Sure, Yoda was able to pick up Bane trying to break into the Jedi Temple, but it's also limited--like Palpatine not seeing his own apprentice tossing him down a few hundred mile shaft to the main reactor of the Death Star.

No. The majority of stormtroopers are clones. The first were the Jango template as you saw in the Clone Wars, but as outlined by Battle Front II, they were later filled out with hundreds of templates after the Kamino Revolt was put down. Only the 501st Legion was kept pure.

Now, the are normal soldiers who do make up the Imperial Army, but they're not conscripts. They're actually people who joined the Imperial Military. Of course, given that Stormtroopers are the 'elite warriors' of the Empire and their combat tactics suck, you can imagine what the grunt of the Imperial Army is going to look like.

Battle meditation?

Actually, I can. While it's true that the Empire is technically much larger, it can't bring all of its forces to bear. Most of the Empire's forces are tied up trying to keep order in the Empire, which is why you don't see thousands of ships engaging the puny Calamari defense force that's about 20-40 ships.

And what goodies are those?

Correct, but they're also the ones that engage Borg ships and win in one or two shots. Borg ships by the way, have gigaton level shielding.

The Empire would be fucked on countless levels if they tried to take on 8472. The guys who fly those ships can tear their way through the hull of a starship--whose exposed hulls have taken 54.88 megaton nuclear weapons without going boom. To put that into perspective, pitting an 8472 pilot against thirty Wookiees would be like pitting thirty newborn chicks against a steamroller.

I really don't mind either. They're both insulted based names.

True, but not as fast as you're thinking. UFP ships can cross tens of thousands of light years within days in known territory, as proved by The Chase, Where No Man Has Gone Before, and Final Frontier.

That may be a bad example. Movies typically cut away to later points. However, the Malevolence --a fast starship in Hyperspace-- can cross 12 parsecs or 39 LY in what seemed to be easily less than a day. Of course, given that a Venator can travel to the Outer Rim in 30 hours of hyperspace travel--they are very fast.

That's hyperbole, so that's a poor example. It'd be like me claiming that Vader can literally crush the entire Rebellion and their fleet with his fist.

Hyperdrive is jumping into an alternate dimension of sorts and moving at FTL speeds. Hyperdrive works by using established, mapped out hyperlanes that are constantly being updated (ie, navigation computers--or navicomps link up to a massive network to download up-to-date info about hyperlanes). Large objects like planets, moons, and stars project a sort of gravity shadow into hyperspace, hence why creating a gravity well will pull a SW ship out of hyperspace or prevent them from going into it.

Star Trek warp drive works by surrounding the starship in a subspace field. What this does is reduce the mass of the ship to the point that you no longer require vast amounts of energy to push it at light speed. To put it this way, our sun and our planet's gravity doesn't 'pull'. Instead, our planet bends time and space around it to 'push' objects down. You aren't being pulled down to the ground, you're being pushed down by the Earth. Everytime you jump, gavity pushes you back down. Warp works in a similar way of bending space, but instead it reduces the mass of a ship. Hence why a gravity well may slow a starship, but it will not stop it from moving through warp or to warp.

Strategically actually. And if we assume that both sides start out with no knowledge of the others, the Empire is in a worse position than the Federation, since at least the Federation doesn't require extensive mapping and research for hyperlanes.

See above.

What is this based on? Imperial communications take hours and only last a certain distance without the holonet. The Federation works with subspace amplifiers to boost their signal distance.

I don't think you really understand what sort of expectations your putting on them.

Better than being dead in space without established hyperlanes. SW ships would rather sit in the middle of an enemy fleet pounding at them then risk an uncharted hyperspace jump.

A vast misunderstanding of SW and ST communications. Both require established networks to get the sort of communication distances that we see. The Federation uses subspace amplifiers and the Empire uses the holonet network.

...Okay.

That's been determined for some time.

No. In order Force Suggestion to work, it needs to be on someone with a weak mind. It works on Stormtroopers because they're clones designed to be obedient to their masters. Aside from that, it works on low minded thugs and criminals. Hell, even three Jedi Masters were unable to force Bane to give up his secret on the first get go--though it took considerable energy for him to do so.

Unfortuantely, Palpatine has only two and the order he'd be giving would not carry all the way back to the Federation, even with hyperspace. It would last for maybe a few seconds or minutes at best.

 

Again, trying to put in that aspect of the Force is pretty much someone just saying 'I WIN!' and thinking it will fly. It would be no different than me saying that the Federation would win because at the end of the episode they perform a technobabble involving the main deflector dish and neutrinos to instantly vaporize the Imperial fleet.

They channel more energy into the planet buster beam.

The Imperial Navy has about 1.6 million ships of which only 25,000 are ISDs, 4 of which are SSDs, and the rest are composed of Victory I, Victory IIs, a mixture of heavy and light cruisers, frigates, and torpedo spheres.

They're typical battle squadron--which is the indication that the Empire is meaning serious business, such as putting down an enemy fleet or planet-- is composed of 19 ships, including an Imperial Star Destroyer. In fact, as far as relative firepower is concerned, the other ships are mostly there to keep the enemy ships off the Imperial while it blows the enemy apart.

What do you think will happen when an enemy Defiant class starship vaporizes the ISD with a a volly of Quantum Torpedoes in the first five seconds?

Oh, might as well get out the old Star Trek list of super weapons...

Obsession: Bomb blew half the atmosphere off a planet and left a crater the size of a small continent.

Star Trek II-III: Genesis device capable of destroying all matter on a planet. A technology based off of this was used by Federation Terraformer in the 24th century and in DS9 he used the underlining protomatter technology to reignite a star.

New Ground: The soliton wave is capable of tearing apart most of a planet when it grows too strong.

Generations: A Federation scientist is able to create a superweapon capable of causing a star to go nova and destroying every planet within the system. Note that this weapon was later used by the Dominion and was easily identifiable.

For the Uniform: Sisko poisons an entire planet in order to counter-act a rogue Starfleet Officer tying to shake up the balance in the Demiliterized Zone.

No, not really.

Which is located on a grand total of one ships and two stations.

Not true. SW ships were seen to suffer damage even with shield still on, such as in Downfall of a Droid, when a Clone is sent flying over the rail when a consol explodes after the first hit is stopped by the deflector shields.

Not really--no. And it should be mentioned that Venators and CIS Banking Frigates have thus far shown to have shielding life spans that last a few minutes at best.

Dude, George made a space-based version of a World War II warship. That's plainly obvious via the large WWII style docking bays and the bridge tower, not to mention the large, bulky heavy guns. The designs aren't that original.