Star Wars vs Star Trek

We're screwed people, Lucas is on a roll...

The world is screwed, Lucas is on a roll...

This is the way the world ends:

http://theforce.net/latestnews/story...red_127182.asp

ITS IN 3D!!!! NO! The fools! It will leak into the real world!

 

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PoW, it doesn't link right - says it can't be found?

 

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Hm, let me try again: http://theforce.net/latestnews/story...red_127182.asp

And two more I found:

http://marketsaw.blogspot.com/2009/1...p-another.html

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/42788

I really hope it is just a rumor that there is going to be an SW 7 8 in 9. Still, the world is doomed because Jar Jar is going to be in 3D.

 

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Warring amongst the characters of Star Wars has gotten so old to me. I DO like some of the new monsters like that long 4-legged beast thing Kenobi was riding, and that round machine Grievous was driving, and the new sounds... That adds to a story but cannot carry it. Kinda the same way Transformers FX and sounds can't carry a Transformers story.

Well actually Transformers FX carry far better IMO but after 2 or 3 movies, it'll get tired and repetitive as well. Star Wars needs new technology, and I don't mean different ships and weapons... they need some new plot devices, I guess they're called. So far, to me, they have these cool ships and powerful weapons and the most these things do for the movie is go, 'look how fast, and look how powerful!' They should have had some Trek-style 'developing' of cool tech, not just showing the tech in action. Show some modification, configuration, or something other than just ships flying and shooting.

Oh well, pfft... Star Wars can blow me with their stupid over-hyped minimal-use bullshit. I think the best scene ever is Fett vs Kenobi in this space scene but to see such an incredible failure for Fett's rapid-firing effort - its just beyond stupid. It just shows why I started hating Star Wars - because with enjoying the FX, I have to tolerate stupidity.

 

Yeah, no kidding - for being an elite bounty hunter with uber technology and "flack" laser rounds... he was about as accurate as a WW2 Dogfighter without pip-sights... lol...

 

Hyperspace works because we are under the assumption that all technologies work within both galaxies as seen. However, it should be noted that Star Wars is actually very, very dependent upon established Hyperspace routes. One indication of this is the Clone Wars movie, where we see that the mining of hyperspace routes made it nearly impossible for the Republic to warge war in the Outer Rim, so much so that they had to rely upon the Hutts to use their lanes.

Interestingly enough we see that EU is the heaviest supporter of this from the two books Knights of the Old Republic and Starships of the Galaxy:

Originally Posted by Scout
[...]

The second major service is that of the scout's traditional role: exploration of space and new worlds. Despite widespread warfare, this is also an era of rapid colonization [Kotor era]. Many species are seeking suitable planets for new colonies, and corporations are willing to pay for information regarding natural resources. Scouts might be commissioned specifically to discover new worlds for a specific patron.

This is from Starships of the Galaxy:

Special thanks to l33tboli who found this information and posted it that others may know ofit.

1) Could they lower the shields? With enough time. Their chances however, are very low. Most Ion Cannons on ships are designed for damaging other SW capital ships, whose technological capabilities are far more primitive and far different than that of a UFP ship.

2) SW ships rarely if ever us concussion missiles from their capital ships, instead opting for mass turbolaser shots and occasionally ion cannons. Furthermore, there's no reason as to why it would simply punch through ST shielding.

They were fairly fast, that much I'll give you, but most of those trench guns are utterly worthless unless you get really close. ST ships would mantain much larger distances, which would make it nearly impossible for someone to hit from the turret, who would have difficulty adjusting to a starship unless it was sitting still.

TO be honest, I'm not sure as I've never seen it done. However, if we assume that it's a viable threat to an ISD, the Enterprise probably doesn't have much to worry about. Two reasons:

1) The Enterprise is much faster and has long enough ranged to put itself out of danger and respond with a volley of torpedoes.

2) The Enterprise's shielding is low gigatons where as Venators in the Clone Wars are probably in the mid KT ranges and later ISDs in the low MT ranges. Therefore, it's unlikely that the leeching ability will be able to drain the Enterprise's shields before it tears it apart.

There's also the issue that in a fleet battle, it isn't going to do well to have an exotic ship that probably costs a great deal attracting attention from three or five nearby ships its draining an insignificant amount of energy from.

I'm sure there are grounds for it.

Faster than Light. STL means Slower than Light. For example, when a ISD enters hyperspace, it is using its FTL drive, but when it's using its ion engines, it's using its STL drive. For Trek its Warp for FTL and impulse for STL.

Actually the UFP used the Pergrine Bomber class during the Dominion War and they were fairly effective. Just five of them were able to penetrate the shields of a Keldon and cripple it while taking 1-2 losses.

There's also the issue that the TIE fighters are for taking out other fighters and defending bombers, which are much slower (albiet shielded and heavily armored) and are not capable of standing up against a Federation starships quick phaser spam.

Um, they could. In fact, if the UFP was a bunch of cruel bastards they could beam them right up into the upper atmosphere and then let them burn up via re-entry.

Actually the UFP ships have been seen to beam up things as large as shuttles before, so Imperial Walkers and shuttles are all in danger of that. Of course, it's just easier to have a bunch of fighters or war oriented shuttles (or even runabouts) shoot them down via air support.

True, but most of SW is horribly designed WWI combat. We have legions of troopers running into ranks of droids pointing semi-automatic weapons at them. In any modern setting they'd get cut down as fast as they come out. Even with the horrible aim that the B1s have, they still chew away a significant portion of the troopers who would do better to stay behind cover and fire back.

Well, let's look at that.

Clone Wars

In the Clone Wars, the highest canon source indicates that the Clone Army numbered in three million, at least for the opening of the war. We also have other strong indications from the Clone Wars TV show that a medical base on the Outer Rim was treating 60,000 Clones and with the loss of the base, the wounded would have no place to go. Assuming that it's a 10% casuality rate, that's a total of about six million clones fighting out on the frontier and we know from Rookies that the cloners are having to push some of the clones out before their training is complete because they're just that desperate. If we assume that another 50% clones are located within the Inner Rim, we get about 9,000,000 clones.

There are also other methods for determining clones as well. If we assume that there are 10,000 Jedi Knights and Masters (this means we won't be including padawans) and each has three Venerators are their command (as per the usual in CW) and we assume 30,000 per ship (per ICS), that gives us three hundred million clones.

Now, if we take into account the 16,000 on Acclamators and assume that they are a seperate group, we also have to take into account that they are rarely seen in large numbers. Even large assaults have only 3-6 Acclamators or about 96,000 clones at most. Assuming 1/4th of the Jedi have command of 4 of them at one time, we would get 160,000,000 million clones, plus another say 3 million who are on bases and planets of importance doing whatever.

That gives us:

Venerator fleets: 300,000,000 Clones
Acclamator fleets: 160,000,000 Clones
Unknown Detail: 3,000,000 Clones
Total: 463,000,000 Clones

And thus their fleet:

Venerators: 30,000
Acclamator: 10,000
Total: 40,000

Now, this is the Empire, so it would be a safe bet that their forces have doubled, but probably no more than trippled in twenty years and the massive expansions, but this is impart limited by the expenses of the Death Star.

So...

x2:

ISD fleets: 600,000,000 Stormies
Acclamator fleets: 420,000,000 Stormies
Unknown Detail: 6,000,000 Stormies
Total: 1,026,000,000 Stormies

And thus their fleet:

ISDs: 60,000
Acclamator: 20,000
Total: 80,000

and x3:

ISD fleets: 900,000,000 Stormies
Acclamator fleets: 480,000,000 Stormies
Unknown Detail: 9,000,000 Stormies
Total: 1,389,000,000 Stormies

And thus their fleet:

ISDs: 90,000
Acclamator: 30,000
Total: 120,000

Hyperspace: When you bring hyperspace into it, SW has a massive advantage, but only in their own home field. Remember that as posted above, it takes a considerable amount of investment of time and resources to map out hyperlanes and without them the Empire's ability to wage war is next to zip. While in their own territory the Empire is more than capable of outmanuervering the UFP, they're worse off in ST territory.

Ground Forces

Fighters-Bombers

Most fighters and bombers show little more than the firepower capability of modern tanks, which is actually fairly impressive since most fighters actually carry fairly low yields since enemies fighters are lightly armored and rely more upon evasion. As for bombers, the yields are actually in favor of WWII bombers than they are SW.

We have two examples of excellent warefare in the Clone Wars. The first is the campaign on Twilik. We saw that CIS bombers dropping about half a dozen to a dozen bombs on a fairly large village (small town by our standards) and getting a common carpet bombing result, probably killing more than half of the population.

We also saw that in atmosphere, most SW fighters aren't nearly as fast as our own modern ones, but to be fair their shipes are shielded and require tank yields to take down, so they would have a considerable advantage against our own modern fighters.

But in the recent Second Invasion of Geonosis, we saw that even the heavy Y-Wings (which came out early last year for the Clone Wars) were no more than moater yields, though very effective. One wonders how those yields manage to present a threat to most ships.

As far as space battles go, it should be noted that about a dozen to two dozen fighters swarmed over CIS frigates without capital ship assistance and overwhelmed them with laser and torpedo fire. Given what we just saw with their yields, this doesn't say much for frigates or in fact, SW firepower.

Although, I would be willing to believe they used lower yielded torpedoes for the mission.

Heavy Artillery & Tanks

We see that in the Clone Wars that the Republic makes heavy use of the AT-TE (or whatever that beatle thing is called). For the most part its ranges are about in the hundreds of meters with so-so aim and the kick of a modern tank. It's fairly armored, but its legs make it slow, though the four forward laser cannons is a plus, as are the aft ones.

The Walkers are much better in the Clone War era, though clearly because they are much smaller and less armored, giving them less crap holding them back as opposed to the Imperial version, though also with less firepower. These are actually fairly effective, but wouldn't be all that great in open terrain.

Artillery Cannons are the next ones; incredibly large and bulky, but with far greater ranges than the ATs and with slightly higher firepower. Incredibly useful, but bulky, noisy, and easy targets for anyone with a photon grenade launcher.

Clones:
Clones are so-so trained combatants. They're intelligent enough to think up of alternative strategies and tactics, but in the heat of things they make really stupid choices such as running into the middle of enemy fire and being perfectly content with standing in the open half the time.

This sort of tactics will hurt with the Federation, who despite their poor combat training, know full well that you need cover. That said, the clones are often better armed as far as practicallity goes. They generally carry grenades, are covered in armor (which protects them from shrapnel), and they occasionally carry helmets with zoom in features and in fact have lights built into their helmets (not to mention limited vaccuum capability with some small adjustments).

In hand to hand I would give it to most clones, who appear to use a much better combat style.

Now, let's get into the Imperial versions:

AT-AT
Incredibly large and massive with a great deal of armor. The thing is easily tough enough to be immune to phaser spam, but its easily vulnerable to mine fields and even more so photon grenades, a one or two is all you need to mission kill it. On the plus side, the AT-ATs have amazing levels of firepower compared to most SW weapons and would be a heavy asset on the field so long as the Empire can cover their butts.

Imperial Walker
Imperial Walkers are much slower, but more heavily armored. Probably half a dozen phasers at higher levels can probably damage it well enough, but given how ST rarely uses those settings for power reasons, it's pretty well off, plus with additional firepower.

Unfortunately it is slow as all fuck. That means it makes a great target for photon grenades, rocket launchers, and weapon emplacements on bases.

Fighters and Bombers
Assuming similar yields to the Clone Wars (which is fair, although TIEs seem to actually be weaker...), most of the fighters are the same as their Clone Counterparts. They do decently well enough, but against their UFP counterparts, most fighters and bombers will probably be picked off with ease.

Storm Troopers
Unlike their CW counterparts, most Storm Troopers are inept. They gladly run through narrow choke points and stand in the middle of the hallway while enemies fire at them, winning only because the opposition are worse shots than a 12 year old (I'm not kidding, A New Hope has six guys firing into a doorway and fail to take out a dozen guys running into the room and firing at them in the middle of the hallway).

We've also seen that the quality of their combat armor is now much lower and seems to be desinged to intimidate rather than for actual combat purposes. More so, we see that although they can still move in the vaccum and that they still share comm-links, their helmets are of incredibly poor design and would make it nearly impossible to use in most terrain.

In hand to hand we haven't seen any impressive displays of Storm Trooper capabilities and so I would say it's probably even for the most part.



The Dominion War

During the Dominion War, it was estimated by four genius clones that the UFP would lose the war and that in fact they would suffer a 900 Billion loss in life (note that the Dominion had not displayed any intent upon destroying worlds, so most of that would be from troop loss). It should be noted that Earth's population is 6.8 billion. Rounding that to seven it would mean that the Federation would have lost 128.6x the population of Earth in about a five year war.

Their loss of life for failure is much larger than the entire force of the Imperial Navy.

Furthermore, we have fleet sizes. SW has about 80,000 to 120,000 that range from ships of war to large mass troop ships with little to no weapon capability. The Federation's lowest estimation is 30,000, but it's more reasonable number is actually 60,000 and we saw entire fleet battles ranging in the high hundreds for each side, where as most Clone Wars battles have reached no more than a dozen ships in typical invasion scenarios for both sides.

Ground Battle

In Ground Battles we see that the Federation is less prepared, but for the most part they don't need it since space superiority is more than enough in most cases. Why send an army down when you can simply nuke them from space or beam them into contained areas or the upper atmosphere? There really isn't.

If for some reason, we have to go for actual combat, the UFP has a load of shuttles armed with light weapons that are capable of blasting away most of a semi, putting their yields a bit higher than most fighters. Actual fighters are armed with photon torpedoes and runabouts could also be armed with photon grenades or mini-torps for both mini-bombardment when the enemy is too close or actual nukes for attacks on bases.

The transporter is also a massive advantage. For the Empire, they actually have to land their ships, which probably takes at least an hour, where as the UFP can just beam down hundreds of people in a manner of minutes with a few dozen ships with most of their wargear while shuttles, bombers, and runabouts or hell, even Delta Flyers down to the surface with probably equal or greater speed than the actual landing craft for SW.

And that is a massive problem for the Empire because that means the fighters and bombers are free to harrass them while they're landing their troops while ST troops prepare for anything that manages to land with at least an hour prep time.

Weapons and Defenses

The UFP has numerous defenses and impressive weapons. The first is the phaer and phaser rifle. Easily more powerful than most grenades that the Empire uses, the phasers are capable of one hit kills and capable of wounding even on a glancing blow. Their additional versatile abilities allow for even making them into heavy artillery pieces or adjusting a phaser for a wide spread blast incase a group of enemies have managed to swarm your area. We even see that they're capable of putting phaser turrets in rooms and blanking the entire room with a stun blast.

We also have photon grenades, which can act as long range moatar blasts and with significantly higher yields (ie, Kirk and Spock were kilometers away when they used one to take out a few Gorns. The blast was easily visible from the far off hilltop), making them better than just about anything the Empire has.

There are also personal shields, as mentioned by an Admiral in Paradise Lost, where he mentions that the Federation has been stockpiling them along with phaser rifles and photon grenades for months.

Then we have aircraft:

Shuttles: shielded and lightly armed. Capable of blasting away most of a semi with one shot. As with all phaser armed craft, their incredibly accurate and would be a deathblow to TIEs.

Fighters: Phaser capability at least as high as shuttles and probably higher given their combat oriented purpose. Are armed with Quantum Torpedoes in the Dominion War and were incredibly effective against Keldorn ships. Would make impressive use for taking out landing Acclamators and even dangers to ISDs. Some adjustments could be made for lower yield torpedoes in the high T or low KT ranges.

Runabouts: Capable of taking out Jem'Hadar attack ships, suggesting that their shields are probably going to be more than enough to ward off anything but a warship is going to provide. Armed with micro-photons and thus exceptionally dangeorus to ground forces.

Delta Flyer: Probably going to be fairly rare given how new they are, the Delta Flyer would pretty much rape anything in its path thanks to the borg oriented technology and the fact that its shields are strong enough to repel the gravity of a planet that would crush a unshielded starship flat as a pancake.

Starships in Orbit: We've seen that in A Piece of the Action that the Constitution class Enterprise was able to stun everyone in about a block with a quick blast. Most assuredly modern starships if they retained such a stun capability, would prove to be utterly devistating planetside.

Only .25 the speed of light? C'mon even the sluggish Galaxy Class can reach near light speed with her Impulse Engines.

Um, no. We have seen fighters beamed away in Nemesis. Of course, it's just easier to blast the thing than it is to beam it up.

Hey Scott, when are you going to get to those eight or so posts of mine where I spank your arguments and leave them bloody and withered in the ground?

Okay.

Which is shot down from orbit by either a) a starship or b) Peregrine Fighters, Runabouts, or a Delta Flyer.

An Intrepid class starship has never been seen once in Deep Space Nine save as a transport ship for diplomats. Given that it's a tactical long range scout ship, it is highly unlikely that it would around defending a planet.

But even so, we've seen that Intrepids have a much higher firing range than that of ISDs, who prefer to get into a few kilometers of the other before firing. Given this, they would probably stop at about a dozen or so kilometers to unload their other ships before entering within combat range--right inside of an Intrepid's firing range. The result is the Intrepid firing off two torpedoes and a few phaser shots. Given that the highest yield for SW ships are about a megaton, two high yield 100 MT warheads hitting it is probably going to blast through the shields and cripple the ship. The confusion sends the ship reeling and the Intrepid finishes it off before turning to its friend, whose captain is probably very much confused and confounded and before he can order for an immediate withdrawl or full speed for combat range, is hit with a volley and takes heavy damage before a fourth finishes it off.

The last captain, promptly shitting on the deck of his bridge, orders for immediate hyperspace jump and manages to escape.

Again, not going to do much. It doesn't take very long for a starship to fire at them and that's not even considering orbital defenese systems.

Except that the Intrepid has already been blasting away at your ISDs because they're well within combat range. As such, already your plans have been put on a spin and the lack of shielding capability means they won't last long.

Or more likely the Intrepid would have danced around them like a mouse around beached whales, tearing large gaping lines through them with her phase arrays while torpedoes blow hundred meter holes through them.

Or more likely, one ground base building with the help of local sensor relays around the planet locate the stormies and beam them into the ocean or just above the planet.

Yes, the unshielded, poorly armored TIE fighters are going to do jack shit against an enemy capable of taking and giving firepower roughly twice as powerful as they can give with one shot.

Done masturbating yet?

Really? Star Wars the Clone Wars movie says otherwise. We also see that in the Second Invasion of Geonosis that the Republic forces walk right through the shield to set up their long range artillery and we also see it in an episode with a bunch of monkey people who are basically pacifists. Both cases are of Republic and CIS shielding technology. We also know that the shield that covered Hoth Base were able to pass through physically otherwise the entire plan would have been fucked from the get go.

Unfortunately, sensor and communications technologies have always been much better for the UFP which uses subspace for such things, meaning that SW probably isn't going to know what the fuck to do in order to jam them. Also, the Dominion tried using that. It lasted about five or ten minutes until the UFP was able to counter it.

What? That's not true. We saw the old NX class do it, we saw the Abrams Enterprise do it (despite being vastly inferior to 24th century technology), and we saw the old Connie do it. Your claims are entirely baseless.

Oh I love how you're gloating of how TIE fighters can make re-entry, but apparently if an ST shuttle or runabout can't, then suddenly their ships can't despite numerous examples of they can.

No, that's mostly officers defending against boarding or one poorly stocked outpost. We're told that the UFP had been stockpiling personal shields, phaser rifles, and photon grenades for months when the tensions with the Dominion went on the rise.

Yeah, not really. More like cheap semi-automatic blasters.

Which mostly suck.

Which are 1/100th the yield of a full powered photon grenade that can be launched from a kilometer away with near perfect accuracy thanks to tricorders.

The UFP can beam them into the ground from orbit.

Which are slow and have horrible aim.

Not really.

Um, no. Not even close. First off, your average phaser is capable of higher yields than your average SW blaster. And furthermore, the US military of today is equiped with better stuff. For one, our tanks are slow moving dreadnoughts with poorly designed legs that allow for easy use of landmines and moatars that woud fuck it six ways to sunday. To top it off, Imperial tactics are horrid; they run across open terrain at choke points without any regard for personal safety and would be mowed down by any modern machine gun.

Your argument is simple masturbation with no actual evidence to back it up.

No it doesn't. Star Wars has consistatently shown a small army, a small population, poor weapon designs, and poor yields as a result.

That's not true. We saw that even Starships carry about half that compliment and during war there's no reason for the UFP not to slap some on to normal shuttles and use them as emergency defense ships. And more so, even if we concede that there will only be half a dozen or less, they more often than not have at least one runabout which is capable of fighting with Jem'Hadar attack ships and fire torpedoes in the low megaton range and easily outrun the blast where as most TIEs won't. That's not even mentioning the superior phaser power will tear through them.

 

Unlike later editions of Star Trek the Star Wars saga is not about the technology. Hell the technology is part of the backdrop of the true story. The six movies made were a mix of human stories from the Tragedy of Dark Vader to the Rise and Fall of Emperor Palpatine, to the Titanic struggle of the noble Rebels against the oppressive government of the Empire. to the Romace of Han and Liea, to Luke Sky Wlaker's rise to Jedi Knighthood, from the death Throes of the Old Republic to the Death Throes of the Empire. All of these stories and many more were the major stories present in the Star Wars Saga.

 

Okay, I will admit it akes estabklished cleared route of travel through space to use hyperspace travel. This clearing is done in real space as all you need do is clear out any objects with significant gravity fields or map ways around them. This is pretty well already done in ST thanks in part to the constant travel of ships iin that universe. Anything that could harm a SW vessel in Hyperspace is a real danger to ST vessels as well and is cleared from traffic lanes. Thus a good stellar cartogrphy map obtained from some ferengi, or even some armed scout ships would rapidly find routes through the Milky Way.

Point of fact in ST:TMP the cruising speed of the Enterrpise is over warp five. yet it would take four days to cover the 100 hundred light year difference from Earth to Vulcan. Vector Prime Kyp Durron had to use microjumps to the edge of his sensor range in a damaged X-wing and it took him less than a week to cover 1000 light years. This without a nav puter so he had to work out his own jump cordinates. I'sd say scouting would be much easier than you think.

Incorrect. SW shields are designed to repulse multiple 200 gigatons equivalent weapon blasts every second. ST Warp reactors barely produce the equivalnet of 3 gigatons per second. There just isn't a comparison.

Actually given ST shields fragility a single Heavy Concussion missles, which ranges again in the multi gigatons of output easily out powering the main warp reactors of said ships.

Really?

A. In every episode of ST I have ever seen they really like to get close as phasers are more effective at close range.

B. The point defense weapons are used to shooting at craft from 3 to 10 meters in length. The target also jink often to avoid fire. Something a 100 meter craft is not gonna do as well

So why does it always try to close with enemy ships?

Okay so you are assuming that a vessel that produces 12.5 billion gigawatts (~3 gigatons) a second has better shields than a ship that has 8 cannons that each produce a 200 gigaton equivalnet blast?

Past this your arguments have little meaning. It is clear you think flashy is better than performance and have little understanding of tactics or strategy.

 

Excpet they're near UFP space, not Ferengi space and the Ferengi have much more of a reason to stay away from people the UFP is at war with. Hell, that's more incentive for them to lie and give them false data. Besides, what the hell does a scout have to bribe a Ferengi? Assuming they could find a Ferengi with the sort of information they want. And you're assuming the required quality needed for these routes, as well as assuming they'll give you insight to defeating the UFP.

On top of that, it's also requiring that these things aren't intercepted by the UFP and other allies and taken prisoner.

Finally, the fact that the Republic basically considers itself fucked without the Hutt lanes pretty much proves that them suddenly building thousands of lanes that will allow them to win the war is not going to happen.

...And? That's 25 LY a day. Actually pretty good considering that Warp 3 is 1.33 LY a day.

Not really. Chances are the pilot knew the area fairly well and was making estimated gusses based on his knowledge of the area, hoping that nothing would go wrong. In fact, it is simply explained with this:

As long as he knew the general information of the area he should be fine. Space, while it can change, isn't often subject to massive changes that are lethal. If he picked a wide open area, he would be safe.

You don't get that with an unknown territory.

Yeah, Saxton's bullshit can walk. Downfall of a Droid pretty much fucked that claim in the ass when Grievous said that the asteroids would protect them from Venerator fire--who as per ICS have 200 gigatons. Unfortunately, the rocks were not made of a material nor were they large enough to repel such fire for more than ten seconds from one Venator, let alone three firing at full power.

You mean the concussion missiles that have never been seen in anything but EU?

It's easier to ensure the opponent doesn't dodge.

Phaser arrays and banks are known for their ability to fire at nearly any angle. They should be fine provided their own body isn't in the way.

See above for 1 and for 2 they don't always close in to visible range.

No, because 12.5 billion gigawatts a second is silly and for two, no. 200 gigatons is better than 3 gigatons. However, ISDs don't have gigatons, as been proven multiple times. I still have the pictures, if you do recall. I will be more than happy to post the Old Republic ships taking a beating from clearly sub-nuclear firepower.

Is this way, when pressed in most of our exchanges, you leave for several pages and never, ever actually address the issues that caused you to run off? Clearly, I think you're in denial.

 

Why are you arguing with him when you KNOW he'll simply hide when he can't win and then come back when he thinks the coast is clear... he reminds me a lot of a Hyena actually... a good scavenger, but no backbone

 

First of all. Feregi are notorious for selling to both side of a war. They are nuetral in the extreme and their merchants often travel in even the most isolationist sectors (Tholian space) In fact the free trade and light taxes of the Empire would be very appealing to the Feregi rather than having to deal with the vastly repressive Federation (tradewise) Not to mention Ferengi traders would see the Empire as just another customer. So selling stellar cartogrpahy maps would be simple. Not to mention point out to whoever bought them the home secotrs of each race. Your argument is based on your assumption that the Feregi would act against their cannon nature. It also relies on the fact that you think the Empire is technologically backwards.

You're assuming that someone sends out a light scout craft in time of war. An ISD would be a wonder advance unit and constantly sending back data to the strike fleet who could hyperspace in in a matter of seconds.

Well becuase in the case of the Clone Wars the enemy has the same tech capabilities as they do. This puts the vessels in danger unlike the situation of scouting the Milky Way

In the case of SW scouting the Milky Way it would be like sending the modern USS Enterprise Aircraft Carrier out to scout the British defenses in 1776.

So, a surplus CLass 2 Hyperdrive can manage to cross 120,000 LY in 4 days. Thats 30,000 LY a day or 1,250 light years an hour 28.33 LY a minute....Well you get the idea. Even without lanes and depending on sensors and using microjumps they could easily surprise any ST fleet.

He had gone out into unknown territory at the edge of the galaxy that was rarely travelled to respond to a Distress beacon from a Terraforming team. 12 of his thirteen craft were lost against the Vong and his artoo unit was damaged. Kyp didn't know that area of space at all, and had to rely of information he got from sesors. So unknow territory rules apply.


Yeah, Saxton's bullshit can walk. Downfall of a Droid pretty much fucked that claim in the ass when Grievous said that the asteroids would protect them from Venerator fire--who as per ICS have 200 gigatons. Unfortunately, the rocks were not made of a material nor were they large enough to repel such fire for more than ten seconds from one Venator, let alone three firing at full power.

They're still valid and they have been seen two cocussion missles were seen used in ROTJ and one small one use in AOTC.

Actually 12.5 billion gigawats is canon "True Q". So get over it.

Second you can't make that claim that is disproven by the shots you claim. And here is the reason: The vessels ins SW are designed to inflict and withstand the energy levels we are talking about. So those supposed sub kiloton explosion are obviously by canon multi gigaton explosions. Until you can show something we KNOW can be sdestoryed by a kiloton weapon and the Turbolaser failes to destroy it, you are obviously wrong.

Well, you can believe whatever you want. But here is some truths.

A: You have never disproven the firepower of the Turbolaser.
B: You have never disproven the power of SW Shields
C: You have never, ever given a single argument on how guys in lycra and carrying simple energy weapons can complete to a fully functiona army that includes armor, artillery and airsupport

so obviously you are the one in denial

 

Hey, Kittamaru

I've already won. You guys have provides absolutely no solid evidnce to back your claims. You have provided accurate diproofs to the SW claims of firepower.

I tend not to respond that often becuase there are more important things in my life than convincing a buch of people of the cold hard truth.

 

*wipes away tears from his eyes*

Aha, whoo... thanks man. I needed a good laugh to start off my day. Always good to start out happy!

You haven't won anything. Even the other pro-wars debaters have conceded and many of them eye you with suspicion at best, disdain and hatred at worst. You have taken the beautiful space opera that is Star Wars and turned it upside down, raped it in the ass and eyes, gussied it up in street-ho makeup, and tried to sell it as something entirely different.

Give

Up

You lost. It's been proven time and again that your only advantage lies within your OWN SPACE. Your weapons and shields are PATHETIC. Your sublight engines and fighters are worthless. Even the "mighty" death star would get obliterated before getting NEAR firing range.

We have provided you with everything from video excerpts to screenshots to quotes from the script. We have analyzed these items, pulled data from them, and, just to be nice, assumed at times up to a 500% variance and thus cut the numbers DOWN, and they STILL trump your best.

Game over man... game over.

 

Which is why they did it during the Dominion War--oh wait, they never did such a thing. The most we saw the Ferengi Government come into this is when the Grand Negus sent Quark and a bunch of misfits (rather than trained officers) to trade prisoners.

And at the very least the Dominion pretends to be friendly. And of course, if the Ferengi give the Empire starcharts, that means they can get more things by themselves. If they can't get their own stuff, it means the Ferengi makes more of a profit from them being stuck in one place.

Sort of how a class full of college students have to pay the higher prices on text books because they need them to pass the course. It's called a captive audience.

Which is why they did absolutely nothing for the Dominion right? And is that why the Federation allowed Ferengi on one of their stations? And the Ferengi are a free nation, WHY would they think that being taxed by them is a good idea? Hint: they wouldn't.

No, my assumption is that the Ferengi probably wouldn't want to backstab one of the greater powers, especially what happened after the Breen and the Cardassians. And unlike the Empire, the Dominion was actually as technologically advanced as the Federation, rather than being light years behind.

This is of course all assuming that they find a Ferengi near Federation space and in the exact area where the Empire's wormhole is. Which probably isn't going to be likely.

Again, we saw that the Republic was basically out of luck without established hyperlanes. So even if you did manage to get a map of the local area, you're still going to need to secure lanes and as we saw, that seems to be pretty much a long and slow task given that the Republic wasn't willing to wait for it.

Yes, where the ships are hundreds of times stronger, gee what was I thinking?

Oh yes, because we've all seen how advanced SW is:

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Perhaps you'll be so kind to show where the planet is so massively devistated by the gigatons of energy that you claim to have. Because that's a rather clean atmosphere and a massive lack of humongeous fireballs.

We've had this discussion before remember? Oh, but there's more:

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It's very amusing to note how dozens of AT-ATs firing their cannons at a frigate is only slightly less devistating than that of a full blown supership firing at powerless Venerators.

No, they still need lanes. This was pretty well established in the Clone Wars. Try as you might, it's made effectively clear that they need those lanes.

And again, there is a massive difference from something as small as a fighter to something as large as a starship. We know for one that gravity greatly affects the speed of a starship and the larger they are, the more difficult it is to maneuver. Grievous for example, had to chart a course around a nebula that was 12 parsecs.

To just go into random jumping with something that massive is incredibly dangerous and the danger increases with more ships you add. Sure, you might be lucky to make a few safe jumps and close calls with one ship, but add three and the complications grow. Add twelve and it gets much, much larger. The more numbers you add, the higher the issue becomes.

Cocussion missiles? Really? Mind posting them? I would be very interested to see how they act. Of course, anything less than instant vaporization would be suspect.

Oh, I have no problem with accepting 12.5 billion gigawatts a second. You see, that helps me, but it's absurdly silly. Allow me to explain; 12.5 billion gigawatts on its own, ignoring the per seconds part means: 12.5 billion gigajoules per second. In other words, 'per second' is already said via watts, as it's a measure of joules a second.

So by saying '12.5 billion gigawatts per second' (which is not what he said by the way, he was cut off) we would in fact be saying that the Enterprise was generating 12.5 billion gigajoules per second per second or in laymen's terms, for every second that passed, the Enterprise would be increasing its output by that amount. So if five seconds had passed, the Enterprise would have increased its output to 62.5 billion gigawatts or roughly 15 gigatons.

I think we can both agree that this sort of discussion would lead one to ask what they're doing with all that energy.

So we're supposed to believe that the ships can magically make multi-gigaton blasts go away in atmosphere because you say so? Don't you see how stupid that sounds? I have proven that there are no gigaton explosions. What you need to do is prove that there's a reason why there aren't any gigaton explosions, not make excuses, which is what you're doing.

Well, you can believe whatever you want. But here is some truths.

I have. You have simply refused to accept it. I've talked about how Dowfall of a Droid, Grievous claims that simple asteroids can protect them from three Venerators, despite the fact that an enemy with such firepower would easily blast through them. Grievous, as the fucking General of the fleet, should know what his ships can and cannot do.

I have shown you images of ships fighting in atmosphere and you have done nothing to dispute them, rather make some sort of bullshit excuse that because we know from a lower canon source that they can do that sort of damage, then obviously the higher canon source must be wrong. And that isn't the way it works in Star Wars. Clone Wars is higher canon and has consistantly shown that they do not use gigaton level firepower as proven by Downfall of a Droid, Jedi Crash, Storm Over Ryloth, Innocents of Ryloth, and several others. None of their fighters or bombers carry the sort of firepower needed to damage a ship capable of such a thing and we have seen them still perform effectively against capital ships.

I have by already proving that their shielding capacity is not capable of taking weapon yields much, much lower than GT firepower. See above.

What? Where the hell is this coming from?

Yes, despite evidence posted form higher canon source of two warships duking it out in the atmosphere and displaying no gigaton capabilities, I am obviously the one who is delusional instead of the guy using one source of lower canon for everything.

Do you realize how fucking retarded you sound right now?

 

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Edited for typos

 

"I tend not to respond that often becuase there are more important things in my life than convincing a bunch of people of the cold hard truth."

Apparently nothing more important than coming back to remind us that you lose many arguments.

"Already won"
And also to make us laugh our asses off. I whooped that ass with hardly even knowing that much about SW, firepower advantage or not. Shield advantage or not. Force advantage or not. Resource advantage or not. FTL advantage or not. All of that together gives you enough to sustain your side of the argument for awhile... but those are only the most obvious things you'd want for your 'wars' which against the Federation policies, yeah. By the book, yeah. But against every form of attack from every species in ST history, not a frickin' chance.

I said before - the hardest part about conquering the SW universe is deciding what method to use.

 

I still vote for having Q simply shrinking the SW universe down to the size of a baseball and putting inside a nice snowglobe.

 

Power is often very misleading when talking about laser pulses anyway. People have already made lasers with power outputs of over a million gigawatts - but since the pulse only lasts on the order femtoseconds, so there isn't actually that much energy. The relevant question is how much energy each "shot" delivers.

 

True, but I highly doubt this would be the same case. Of course, I don't think they were just generating that energy just randomly. They were probably doing some sort of high energy experiments that required the massive energy to begin with.

Your example I believe is a bit strange in that while it is true, it doesn't exactly work with what most people know as watts or joules. Given that this was not written by scientists, we can assume a typical result of x gigawatts or