Star Wars vs Star Trek

Just a quick point...ablative armor itself is not future tech. The Defiant is all ablative armor (as referenced by Jadzia Dax in a Dominion firefight).

What is future tech is the ability to install it as a retractable defense (like a shield, rather than hull plating).

 

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Yah.

The idea behind ablative armor is that it spreads the destructive power over a broad area instead of absorbing it in an area the size of a square foot.

But if it were to face off against the firepower of a battlebarge it can spread the damage all it likes, but when that amount of weaponry hits it, it will still fail after a while.

 

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One more quick point...if we discuss Universal conflict, Species 8472 indeed do count, since Kathryn Janeway successfully opened diplomatic relations with them, and somewhat mollified their natural xenophobia, especially where the Federation is concerned.

 

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That may be so, but it would take unbelievable and unrelenting power...see the DS9 episode Valiant...where the Valiant (Defiant Class), commandeered as it were by cadets, STILL took constant hammering from a Dominion dreadnaught for an rarely seen amount of Trek battle screentime, and still survived long enough for an evacuation of the surviving crew.

At any rate, the only reason I pointed it out is because some contributors incorrectly attempted to invalidate its use in the debate.

 

Good point.

But how would they communicate with them between te distances? Maybe try and open a tear to form an alliance. That would be cool.

 

But is it used in anything other thjan the defiant?

I think there is some referance of Picard's soverign class enterprise having it, but was the only ship outside of the defiant class to have it.

 

Voyager staff know how to open a path to fluidic space. Communication with 8472 is easy.

Indeed, the Enterprise E is ablatively armored (to coin a term lol). And this is a more correct argument to make it difficult to use ablative armor (at least for widespread fleet use) in a UFP vs Empire debate.

 

If anything, I'd say an AI like that would be a disadvantage... but that's neither here nor there.

I still contend - your ships are so big and ungainly that there's no possible way they'd be able to track, engage, and destroy the much smaller and tactically quicker Trek ships... I mean hell... when I read aboutWH40K battles, they're mostly broadside or formation fights where neither side really moves because there's no point in trying to evade incoming fire... their ships are just too slow to maneuver. Conversely, a ship like the Defiant or Akira or even the Sovereign class Battlecruiser can turn on a dime and make half-second microwarp "hops" at warp 1 to avoid incoming fire, subvert around to the rear of your ships, and attack you from behind with pinpoint accuracy and weapons that don't really care what your armor is made of because they cause the material to detonate at the sub-atomic level.

Again, a phaser is just as potent vs adamantium as it is vs human flesh. The reason certain materials give them trouble is A) They are SUPER dense (like Neutronium, from a Neutron Star) B) they are highly ablative, and the "cloud" sheath formed by ablation of the material and the boiling of thin, large-area portions of the material helps disperse the phaser beam, or C) the material is in some alien way energy absorbing (think black hole). Other than that, it's just a matter of time till the phaser penetrates your armor.

Also - don't confuse Ablative Armor with Ablative Armor Generators... Voyagers Ablative Armor was in PLACE of shields, and was almost like a holographic projection armor

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What the Defiant and the Sovereign class's have doesn't even begin to compare

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Remember E-D, the Ablative Armor Voyager used =/- the same armor the Defiant and Sovereign have. Theirs is a layer of armor applied directly to the hull. What Voyager has was, literally, holographic armor.

Voyagers armor actually deploys around the hull and continually regenerates, leading me to believe it's "applied" much like the holodeck makes the physical objects people can interact with. This makes the most sense as otherwise the armor would have no way to deploy past the opening of the generators

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In essence, it's a hologram given phyiscal form using ablative material that is highly resistant to weapons fire, easily doable using large-scale micro-teleportation, photonic-holographic technology, and large-scale replication of the weapons-resistant material via replicators.

 

Indeed...I'd said so..that what made Voyager's ablative armor future tech is it's ability to form over the existing standard hull. Enterprise-E and Defiant use ablative armor as hull plating.

I venture that it could be nanotechnology rather than hard-light hologram though. Possibly a concept borrowed from the Borg themselves

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You'd think that. But actually the targeting systems are incredibly accurate.

They can from around 500 kilometers away from a planet, hit within a meter of where they are supposed to.

You see, boarding torpedos are very prevelant in the wh40k universe, and of course to shoot down something that tiny you need an incredible targeting system.

Actually many of the targetting systems on the ground are able to detect cloaked infantry and ships very reliably.

The targetting systems are very accurate.

 

And on top of that the ftl drives on the wh40k ships are far, far superior to those that the feds have.

The ships move from one side of the galaxy to the other in a few weeks in comparison to the 70 years it would have taken Voyager.

When you have hundreds of heavy weapons batteries on a battleship, you can fly the defiant as fast as you like and dodge, but something tells me you wont have a chance in hell of dodging more than a dozen or so batteries.

By then the other batteries would have ripped you apart.

And lets remember how on top of the near inpentrable adamentium armor, is a shield system that can rip holes through shields on entire planets.

Literally, a 40k battlebarge rammed a battlestation the size of a planet and between the armor and the shields the thing actually penetrated the station's shields.

Now that is incredible.

 

500km is hardly a range to be boastful of

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when you can hit with a weapon large enough to rip holes through the ground and devestate a planet in minutes. and still hit a target reliably a square foot. Yah that is something to be boastful of.

 

Yes, they are accurate against the slower WH40K ships - I doubt they can effectively track the high-relativistic speeds of Trek

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Yes, that's all great and such.

Except remember, you're not shooting at WH40K shields, armor, or speeds. WH40K ships don't maneuver at near-light speeds... their size prevents it. And remember, space is 3D, not 2D - so there is an infinite number of ways to evade incoming fire.

Also, remember, it doesn't matter how dense your armor is unless at the sub-atomic level it is able to avoid being demolecuarlized...

 

A phaser can do that from 24,000km away... and a photon torpedo can do that from almost 3 million km away... without special modification.

 

Think about it fedr... if your ship is almost 10km long... and they can "accurately" fire on a target ONLY 500km away... that's a problem...

 

don't quote me on this, but i think that unlike the Defiant that utilises ablative armor on a large scale, the Sovereign is "ablated" only at some key locations. i just can't remember the source. it might not even be canon material.

 

theyre not psionic, most races dont use that otherwise they would be blatently obvious to psykers. They actually use some much more sophisticated equipment.

Kitt, it doesnt matter how fast trek goes, all 40k needs to do is shoot so many rounds in your general direction and your screwed and im pretty sure we can get 75 batteries per battlebarge firing in your general direction and if this were a massive battle there could be up to 1,000 battlebarges, several thousand cruisers and uncountable frigates.

Theres no way you can dodge that much firepower.

Anyways, the computers and ai are way more than powerful enough to track a ship going that fast, they just dont frequently need too. But it has been done, especially with some of the eldar that do use high speed maneuvers.