Star Wars vs Star Trek

First off space marines don;t surrender, and im not saying that as soemthing to boast, it is in all practicalities a fact that they have almost never surrendered.

Plus the fatal assumption kitt and antaran have made is that the ST fleet would even HAVE superiority over the massive fleets of the space marines and imperial guard. Which considering that the federation could only muster 40 ships to defend their planet from the borg is pretty pathetic considering that each chapter out of the atleast 1000 chapters has about 33 ships in their inventory, all of which with enough weaponry to vaparize a planet. so if even 4 chapters attack the federation, (which a campaign like that it would be more like 10) the space marines would have many more ships.

The enterprise D has the maximum capacity of 1012 passengers. A battle barge has room for 1000 space marines, and their vehicles, dreadnaughts, and thunderhawks.

Now imagine, 10 battle barges, 40 cruisers, and 100 frigates (1 battle barge per chapter, 10 cruisers per chapter (one for each company) and 2 frigates for every cruise or battlebarge)

And the fact is that your 40 fed ships wouldnt have a snowballs chance in hell of survival, and if you want to make true to this arguement that it is the full force of these universes, well you can expect around 1,000 battlebarges, 10,000 cruisers, and 22,000 frigates, totalling 33,000 ships, and that is only the space marines, i personally dont even know if there is an exact number for the imperial guard's ships. And this is all for the here and now time period, if you want to include everything from either universe including from the oldest episode of ST as far as timeline goes to the first, and the great crusade of the Space marines, to now. Well, you can expect several million ships, and remember, that the battlebarges, cruisers, and frigates haven't changed much since the great crusade so if you are hoping that the older ones will be less advanced, think again.

And the arguement against the space marine ships is that the weapons are not destructive enough to break through fed shields and so on...

But the fact is that a level 16 setting on the phaser is pretty much the same effect as melta weapons. Which are not even close to the devastating fire power of the lascannon. And even if it takes a melta gun one shot to pierce the infantry man's shield, in ratio to the bolter, it would take the bolter at most two or three shots.

 

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And little things like the fact that even the largest guns available in the game still have on-table ranges...
Compare weapon ranges to move distances.
It helps establish the ground scale.

Um, wargame (oops! 3D role-playing hobby game, my bad) not board game.
Bear in mind that the game is ALL we have to judge it by then it does seem fairly obvious....

 

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No, you have the games based off of the board game like the dawn of war series. the game never specifies how long a turn is, it could be a few milliseconds to a minute to anything in between.

 

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WH40K started as a table top game.
I'll see if I can find my copy of the first edition set (subtitled Rogue Trader) if there's any definitive statement about ground scale.

 

you seriously have a first edition? cool, i joined the gaming from the end of the 4th to the 5th. I thought that the first editions were hard to come by. Back then were the units bronze? i had a guy i played against with full bronze units.

But do remember, a lot has changed in the game since the 1st edition

 

Back then the Space Marines were few and far between...
Bronze?
Official armour colours? Nope.
But the OFFICIAL rule was that you could paint them ANY way you wanted and have ANYTHING you wanted in your army - they even ran articles in White Dwarf on how to converts Zoids to vehicles..
And 1st Edition wasn't hard to come by when it was brand new and you're as old as me

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And the prices, and the attitude...
*sigh* Oh the good old days...

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Now this is the most ridiculous thing in St yet. Why would you take the chance of some getting killed in a Holodeck ?? if you make one tiny miscalculation or forget the smallest thing and .... oeps.....you're dead.
So if Worf didn't use his comunicator to make a forcefield .. bye bye worf. sound very disturbing to me.



I saw a movie once about a man who invented a holoroom. and his kids allways visited africa in this room. because they allways spend time inthe room there father wants to destroy the room but his sun sabotaged it and the father was killed by the lions.

 

Yah, that guy i told you about with the bronze units. Total and complete jack ass. He would play his turn, come to you, practically tell you to do (which i didnt cause most of his moves for me were suicide) hang over your shoulder and speak to you like you have never seen a dice in your life.

And this other guy was such a f*****, if you asked him the simplest question he says "are you retarded?" so many jackasses play the game, probly why ive only played 3 matches. But i collect them for fun.

 

And PS - Holographic bullets killed 2 Borg drones in Star Trek: First Contact. Holograms, without safeties, are as lethal as anything else... they're as SOLID as anything else.

 

Holographic bullets can kill... Star Trek First Contact is a great example.

And no, ST Marines would laugh at modern Navy Seals... then stun them all and go about their merry way...

 

Great point mate - WH40K Dawn of War 2 - infecting one tyranid infected the entire invasion and killed them all...

 

Negative - they are not force fields. It's actual manipulation of real matter and photons. That's why you can, for example, go rock climbing, fall, and break your arm

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Again - the bullet was as real as any 30-06 round I could fire at you today...

 

NO, it isn't. IT REMOVES YOU FROM THIS UNIVERSE AT THE SUB-FUCKING-ATOMIC LEVEL. That's a bit different than making you EXTRA CRISPY, which is all a MELTA can do. A LasCannon is like a peashooter by comparison...

HEY! I have two weapons... one is a massive, heavy ass las cannon able to punch a hole clean thru you and the other is a handheld, easily concealable phaser able to vaporize matter at the sub atomic level. Hmm... which is more powerful?

A, DUH?

 

WRONG.

A turn is described as a period of time taking no less than 4 but no more than 10 seconds. The average accepted period is 8 seconds.

 

And you're point is...? Lol, not sure what you're getting at

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And Normally holodecks have safeties... but lets face it. Where's the thrill in, say, Rock Climbing if you KNOW you can NOT get hurt no matter what happens?

 

Kitt, now you are the one making things up. Here i'll have a turn.

Chaos demons were so massive worlds split in two when they tread, and theres even a vague referance to that in the space marine codex.

The fact is that if everything you said were true, than why is it that they dont just teleport out of every sticky situation they find thmeselves in. Why the fuck is any race a threat to the feds if what you descried is true.

And what in the fucking world gives you the fucking right to judge MY weapon potentiol when you dont even fucking admit just how pathetic your lame ass starships are. A borg ship got detsoyed by a solar fucking flare. What a pathetic excuse for a shield that turned out to be.

Who cares about going through a black hole? Space marine cruisers go through the warp all the time.

Meltagun erase you from existance, with a phaser u may turn into atomic dust, with a multi melta, you are gone, END OF STORY.

So you are saying that a gun that can level a shielded building, take down a planet, bring armaggedon to a world is a fucking pea shooter?

The fact is that if you could do everythign you said than you would.

Also, the tyranids produce some of the most dangerous poisons and viruses in existance. Do you really think there is any sort of poison or viruse you could ever hope to use? They fire acids that eat through tank armor in nanoseconds.

you have no right whatsoever to insult MY weaponry, and yet i actually have some right to insult yours because i am in fact a ST fan.

Lets take your warp fields, the tiniest disturbance can rip your fragile little ship apart.

you are argueing that at the most 100 federation ships can stand against 33,000 space marine vessels and come out on top. Oh yeah i misinterpreted the numbers it is 3 battle barges per chapter, making it 39,000 space marine vessels.

You have no sort of proof whatsoever that a lascannon is useless. The best shielding in warhammer 40,000 only gives a slightly higher chance of survival, not because they suck, but because these weapons routinely cut down titans and starships, and a shield the size of a man is so much more miniscule.

And if lasers are weak against shields, than that must mean that these lasers are the most deadly lethal weapon you can imagine short of the death star, they are so fucking deadly that even with a shield that is strong against lasers, the laser still has a very large chance of piercing it out right.

So how dare you insult these weapons. Because if the federation was as all mighty as you claim, why is it that they were obliterated by the borg on one occasion and through a total miracle they survived another attack?

And if site to site transport were so good, than why is it that your away teams don't just transport away when they get the chance? Here's my theory, for several seconds as their transporting not only must they stay in place, but for 3 seconds they are vulnerable to getting shot and killed. What other explanation is there?

 

1) Teleporters can be blocked by other races in Trek... plus quite often there is a reason why in the episode. Give me specific examples and I'll tell you why - thing is, it was an example of a possible tactic.

2) Yes, the borg WERE destroyed by a solar flare - they don't use shields... period. Their armor and EM field (not a shield as per Federation standards) adapts to incoming energy after a few hits. That solar flare was a MASSIVE discharge... no time for them to adapt. However, we have seen a klingon Bird of Prey (an OLD ass ship) dogfight meters above the liquid core of a star similar to Earths own sun... we have seen the Ent-D hide for hours on end in the corona of a high-output star... Voyager survived flying blindly into a black hole (sensors were damaged) and simply turned around and flew back out... that says something...

Las Cannon - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lascannon - Able to pierce most vehicle armor... that doesn't sound like leveling a shielded building mate... you are confusing your own damn guns...

Tyranid poisons would be NOTHING to a transport buffer... 99.9999999% of foreign material is REMOVED via the pattern buffer by using previous transports as a comparison to re-structure your body...

Acid vs armor is one thing... how can ACID eat thru an ENERGY SHIELD? Think about that a moment... yeah. That's what I THOUGHT...

Warp fields... are you fucking joking? VOYAGER jumped to warp WITHOUT ONE... yes, she was shedding hull plating left and right... but I would hardly consider a 0 to light speed jump "a tiny disturbance in the warp field"...

The federation has far more than 100 ships... I would wager good money that a Defiant Class destroyer could stand toe to toe to ANYTHING the Space Marines could throw at it... for three reasons:

1) They'd never HIT the Defiant... too agile, too quick. It'll dart in an out faster than your weapons can track, much less move... remember, any weapon with mass can only move so fast... thus bolters/meltas/ion cannons/et al can only move so quick.

2) Shields in Star Trek work far different from "shields" and armor in WH40K... it's not about raw power. It's about how you use it. That's why the Defiant could easily fly across the corona of a star and not sweat about it.

3) Warp Strafing - 'nuff said...

As for the "weakness" of your weapons - I never said they were weak... just that compared to how Federation shield tech works... they don't stand a chance. You can NOT MELT a non-physical shield... and if the shield can withstand the heat and radiation from a STAR, I doubt anything your ships put out has enough raw HEAT to melt thru it... make sense? So Meltas are out right there. Bolters... at best, tthey'd be ineffective due to the high speeds of Trek ships during tactical manuvers... in fact, looking thru the wiki, I don't see a SINGLE weapon that'd pose a significant threat to a Defiant class warship...

So yes, I dare insult your weapons...

As far as being Obliterated by the Borg... let me ask you this:

If you are a peaceful, diplomatic entity that has what it needs to defend itself more than adequately from known threats... what happens when the threat of a much, much more massive, single, powerful, ship approaches? You get curb stomped for a while until you finally manage to find a weakness... that's how it went vs the borg. And that makes sense... the Ent-D wasn't exactly a battleship... so yeah. They got pwnt four ways to sunday.

Now, though, with the Sabre, Norway, Defiant, Prometheus, Sovereign, and Titan classes, they can stand toe to toe with a borg Cube and do fairly well... add in Transphasic torps and there goes the neighborhood.

The thing with the Borg is they dont' become "resistant" to a weapon... they become 99.999999999999999999999% IMMUNE to it. Meaning it's worthless... the Federation can become probably around 80% resistant to a weapon after studying it more in the field, maybe 95% after extensive research. How long do you think it'd take for them to adapt to, say, a las cannon? I don't think it'd take long...

And as I said before - site to site transport has issues... like the fact that some things DO block teleportation (or makes it unsafe) et al... but that mostly atmospheric and from an orbiting starship. And no - once you dematerialize (takes less than 1/10th of a second) you are fine as the pattern is held in the buffer any incoming weapons at the time, you can disarm / remove at reassembly

Other explanations - generally, it's easier to subdue the enemy than retreat

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Kryptman from the Third Tyrannic War on Tarsis Ultra caught a lictor (possible with Star Trek shields and transport) and created a venom from the lictor's genetics. With this, it was implanted into the Norn-Queen, thus killing her and sending the Tyranid broods into a cannibalistic frenzy, not relay the orders previously given.

You can state whatever you want with Warhammer 40k ships to be more powerful than Star Trek ships, but you actually can't. No canon actually details the exact nature of the strength of Warhammer 40k starships, except they have the ability to gloss over a planet. However, if you read through this thread, the denizens have already proven both Star Wars and Star Trek to have that ability as well.

Because battle barges can survive encounters with Tyranid fleets, it can be assumed Tyranid ships are merely only on equal footing. Thus, it is practical to assume that since Federation starships are shown to a vague scale to be as powerful as Warhammer 40k ships, orbital support is indeed likely. And for each hive fleet, it is merely as simple as swooping a lictor up with a transporter into a strongly shield area for genetic extraction. From there, each Norn-Queen would fall simply.

It's harder for the Imperium of Man to do it, because it's not practical to catch a lictor, as they required Deathwatch Space Marines. Star Trek universe can swoop them off using the transporter, without the need to risk an army.

 

True Transporters are bloocked by virtually any disturbance. An ion storm that would barely add static to TV broadcasts would obliterate a Transporter lock. There are THOUSANDS of known material that make transporters faile regularly, all of them are dense metals. MIld radiation can disrupt transporters and in more than one case a Transporter lockon was broken by sheer acts of strength and will.

Borg do indeed use shields as described in endless canon. To say they do not is idiocy of the highest degree. In fact it is these shields that adpat to enemy fire, usually by polling thousands of weapon and shield experts for ideas and taking the best ones. As for hiding in the corona of a star it was taking all of the Enterprise D warp energy to keep shields online and even then the ship was taking superficial damage and would soon start taking more serious damage, and this wa s dying star. No the solar flare that took out the Borg was an artificial one cuase by a tractor beam effect. It was by no means a massive solar flare and in fact would be considered a miniscule one by celestial standards. As for the Bird of Prey dog fighting just meters above the liquid surface of a star? I call bullshit. First off all an entire star is gaseous, despite having a density of several times lead. No one would ever describe that as liquid unless thye had no understanding of celestial bodies. The Eneterprise D was several hundred Kilomets fromt he surface and dared no go closer.

As for the Voyager, it did not fly into a black hole it flew into a time distortion cuase by a nearby black hole. The Event Horizon created a small temporal anomlay that was repairing itself. The Voyager was never subjected to the stresses of what the black hole could do.

Actually as LandRaider as described as tough as shielded fortress and a Las Cannon has a chance at knocking it out then I guess it qualifies.

Hey if they can't filter out a symbiote or the disease form Naked Now you cannot make this claim

Well actually considering that most energy shields would just let the low speed low mass and soft material right through the shields would it matter. We've seen shields bounce high speed and high mass stuff, but would it even notice a globule of acid? Probably not as most fields seems to be set to let air.

However if a ship was traveling say any faster than warp one and it's field failed just how far would their atoms be spread.

Sure if you could frieghters and runabouts Star FLeet has thousands of ships. Realistically hower we are looking at perhaps two thousand vessels of frigate size and larger. Perhaps anoth thousand if you allow some mothballed ships back online.

You're basing this on conjecture and widely inaccurate conjecture at that. W40K ships are known for delivering pinpoint fire from orbit. If they can detect and drop a melta torpedo on a man sized target then they can surely hit a 100meter long hunk of tin that does at best in combat of km a second.

But the problem is that in many things brute force carries the day. Using a rapier to parry a bastard sword and in one or two blows your defense is shattered.

Warp straffing has it inherent problems first you must position yourself via Impulse as you charge your weapons. Then you warp in after practically broadcasting your lintended you so as your warping in you are adding your speed to the projectiles launched into your path.

Okay, so weapons that are known for ripping apart nuetronium hard substance s is weak? You do realize that ST best weapons are worthless vs nuetronium.

But you forget that the Enterprise D is a WARSHIP. It was the BEST starfleet had to offer. When the crew lost their memories the technical readouts told them that the Enterprise was a vessel of war. You also forget that sometimes there is no weakness. If the Enterpiase had met a ISD or Battle Barge there would be naught left of the Enterpsie D than a video clip on on a blog site about how pathetic some ships are.

However it takes dozens of fed ships to face one cube without transpahasics and due to temporal prime directive the federation will not use them,

No, Kitt as shown cannonically the borg doubel their defense abilities vers weapons when they attune themselve's through analysing the weapon and a formulating better defenses

We have seen on the show how it take much longer than a second, so just live with it.