Star Wars vs Star Trek

So was Spock and arguably Spock is much more brilliant than Data ever would be, but even he would need a measurement device.

With perfect memory he would likely not waste resources on calculating the variables. He would just regurgitate the basic model information in interest of saving time.

But he didn't do that. Without puase he hjust regugitate the information as if reading form the owner's manual.

So why would he need time to learn to paint, and learning from Geordi's instruction no less? Why is it he never thinks of the solution himself but has to work with other people? Why was it that Picard would have Wesley helping Geordi and Data when it was something super critical?

It's simple, any idiot can look up the equations, an Engineer has to be creative with them and make them work when they normally wouldn't.

 

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Yet in the scene the lights in the core are moving as quickly as they do when the ship is in higher end warp, but not peddle to the metal. Remeber they are running all the advanced sensors, countless comptuer simulations, replicators, transporters, and countless other things in order to get the ship ready for when they do act. All these systems drain power badly. Most of these systems would be shut down with a Red Alert.

So perhaps we're looking at half or quarter what the warp core can put out. Still means one Heavy Turbolaser puts more firepower than the Warp core

But total power does have to do with the maximum you can get from your shields and phasers.

 

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While Star Wars fans are busy making calculation out of nonsense they are sometimes blind to the fact that it's not about how much power you put into a weapon, which is what I believe you are illuminating.

Star Wars hasn't found efficiency yet and if they have they haven't discovered away to apply it.
Voyager is a great example of high efficiency. Less than half the Galaxies size. More than 300% faster and just as strong in the weapons department. Defiant as well shows that Weapon's power isn't about wattage it's about skill and ability.

The Phaser is a highly efficent weapon using less power to achieve 60 times the work of the Turbo laser. Finding ways to achieve goals while using less power is the conservationist way Star Fleet and the Federation grew into. Even in the 23rd century we saw that 90 percent of the Earth's power comes from the sun.
Star Wars makes the reactor's bigger and bigger every ship they build.
Gargantuan ships that last all but a twinkling as soon as a few fighters get withing range. It litteraly seems they have not other way of generating energy but through fussion and Hypermatter cores.

Of course I don't think they feel anything more efficient is required and I suppose that makes the Empires efforts in NJO futile as the Borg would say.
Meanwhile the Federation has fussion and Antimatter reactors, Romulans has a quantum singularity core, The care taker had a tetrion reactor and there have been many other powersources beyond Federation knowledge...all even more efficient than the warp core.

When you think that a simple nadion particle is capable of disrupting the nuclear bonds between matter it is no wonder why the phaser is more powerful and more efficient than a laser of any wattage.

 

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But the truth of the matter is you CANNOT have more than 100% efficiency. Just not possible.

They have the most efficent FTL system of either galaxy. They have mastered AI manufacture to the point where even street urchins have a chance at owning one. They managed to build a device that can destroy an enitre planet in one shot.

It is not that much faster and it certainlyu is not nearly as well Armed. There is a reason that the Voyager season did not have a Galaxy Class starship as it's vessel: Most of the Quadrant would not have been a Threat to a GCS.

In fact go tell Paramount that you think an Intrepid class Starship has the same power as a Galaxy CLass cruiser. See what they say.

As for the Defiant it is prrof that it Wattage plus skill. The Defiant has weapons comparable to the fire power of Ambassador class starships and it has a Warp core that is identical in capability of a GCS. The little ship is little becuase it is just a combat vessel by design. No real luxuries like garden or bowling alleys on a Defiant.

okay, first of all like explained above you cannot beat thermodynamics. Otherwise the Federation would have no need for antimatter. At best a phaser can do exactly the same ammount of damage as the power you put into it. Nothing more. Second we have never seen a phaser do anything as impressive as we have seen Turbolasers do.

Well you do realize that an Antimatter-matter reaction is a type of Fusion reaction yes?

As for those ships, it takes a great pounding by the main ships for the fighters to start sneaking through the strained shields. It takes thousands of gigatons to strains sheidls that much.

Finally building a larger ship is a mark of technological superiority. It denotes superior engineering skills, superior materials, superior power generation and so on.

 

With the Phaser ability alone combat between the two the GFFA seems alomst doomed. It is unfortunant that Warp maintains such a low speed. I agree this is a major disavantage. Travle in the Federation's terriotry would be a matter of seconds. They could litteral raise Hell with enought ships and that is exactly what I plan on doing in the novel. But how much real damage could they do? I'm not sure. A well planned sneek attack could cripple the Federations construction facilities but they're protected by the same defense systems that blew away the Breen Fleet.

I'ts almost like the Unmovable object meeting the unstopable force. The GFFA forces would have to litteraly hit Earth with every thing they could spare. We're talking hundreds of ISD level ships hitting Earth and it's defense installations, Pluto, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and Earth at once. While hundreds more went after DS9 vulcan and the Six dozen Star Bases while avoiding Fleet engage ments at all cost.

What a display that would be.

 

Yes but if the egg can move just a little bit then there is a chance the sledge hammer misses. In this case the Egg is highly nimble like a fly and there is no chance of the hammer making good on it's threats.

However an easily engineered cluster torpedo of Tri-cobalt devices would would demolition the Death Star...and even more simpler a proto matter warhead no longer than 7 feet tall would end the Death Star on impact.

Like I said Trek is just better efficient.
Wanna destroy a Star...Don't need an entire ship for that like the Sun Crusher. Just a few trilithium rich torpedoes to stop the core reations and BOOM. Bye bye birdie. No need for a Death Star Either. All three of which I remind were were huge waste of resources.

 

Really...all thats left is for you guys to come over to the light side and embrace the Federation.... Who roots for the bad guy but....bad guy's henchmen? Agents of Evil.
Come home to Earth.

 

The Eclipse is non-canon, and even if it was, the ship is downright massive and its weapon is mounted on the front. Simply staying behind the main cannon pretty much renders it worthless, save for space to surface attacks.

 

Well how stupid was the Rebel Fleet hanging around the super laser aperture. It's not like it revolves like a top...but for some reason the mon cal lined up to be calimari just to have an exciting sequence. But then again that's just how slow GFFA ships are. Pathetic

All the Death Star need was a couple of Tri Cobalt war heads right on that Aperture and that big bad weapon would be useless.

"Everyone relax the moon has been disarmed. Come on people nothing t see here."

 

Novels are canon (just not as high as movies), and if you check this thread the very beginning includes the EU.

The Eclipse is huge, yes, but the main gun is a strategic weapon, like other super star destroyers it is bristling with Heavy Turbolaser, Turbolasers, and a massive amount of point defense systems.

 

Tri-colbalt devices wouldn't even be able to make the shield glow on a Corellion Corvette let alone a Super Star Destroyer or Death Star. Remeber Tri-Colbalt is relatively worthless against anything shielded.

As for slow GFFA ships. maybe in sublight, but the fleet can hit Earth before federation realizes they were sent. The strike would happen. Earth would either be shattered or a molten planet devoid of anything resembling life. What would the Federation do then?

Star Trek loses in a war, simple as that.

Honestly it would be more fun if they teamed up, the Federation joining the Alliance and Empire in wiping out the Borg and Species 8472. Imagine ships that use Hyperspace for strategic jumps and low speed warp for tactical stuff. Imagine the Eclipse flying with a screen of X-wings, Nebulan Frigates and Federation warships. Imagine the Defiant class Starship upgraded with firelinked Quad Turbolasers cannons and Heavy Concussion missles. Oh the fun we could have.

 

You and Antaran are right on the money here, Saquist.

The power output of a weapon is far less important than the ultimate effects of that weapon.

For instance, which of the following weapons is better for ship-to-ship combat?

Weapon A: A multi-megaton torpedo that must penetrate energy shielding and layers of armor before it can damage a vessel substantially.

Weapon B: A sub-kiloton explosive that can be delivered directly to a ship's reactor, bypassing any shields or armor.

Obviously, the correct answer is Weapon B.

Many Warsies parrot Worf's dialogue from TNG's The Survivors when he states that the Enterprise's shields were overcome by "400 gigawatts of particle energy" from the Husnock's primary weapon.

Of course, these same Warsies completely ignore the Enterprise episode "Fight or Flight," in which the phase cannons of the NX-01 Enterprise demonstrate a maximum output of 2 Terawatts.

Are we really supposed to believe that the NX-01 Enterprise could've bested a Galaxy Class starship in a fight?

400 gigawatts is equivalent to 0.95 tons of TNT. Are we really supposed to believe that the United States Air Force would be capable of bringing down a Galaxy class starship with about about twenty 500 pound bombs? How could the E-D ever hope to last during a firefight with a single Romulan ship, which is capable of charbroiling the surface of a planet in a little over 10 minutes.

Obviously, we must delve a little further into the dialogue of TNG's The Survivors. Worf states that the Husnock's primary weapon consists of "jacketed streams of antimatter." It's very possible that the antimatter was contained (or jacketed) in an electromagnetic containment field laced with matter. Upon reaching the target, perhaps the containment field was lifted, allowing the matter and antimatter to interact.

Remember, Worf says "400 gigawatts of particle energy." Particle is the key word as it probably only referred to the antimatter. When the electromagnetic jackt was finally dropped, allowing the antimatter to interact with the matter, the resultant energy expulsion was probably far greater than 400 gigawatts.

Also, let's not overlook the obvious. The Husnock vessel was NOT real. It was an illusion created by Kevin Uxbridge. He could've fooled the Enterprise's sensor into reading anything he desired.

 

What if the threat is to boil San Francisco? The Earth is not known for dodging nimbly.

To the first: No, even if you had a hundred of them. the shielding on a Death Star would simply be too powerful.

To the second: One two existed and there are no more.

The sun crusher uses meter long torpedoes to destroy a star. The ship itself is smaller than a B-Wing. As for the trilithium torpedoes, again only two and the person is not around any more.

As for the resorce cost, Palpaltine hid the construction of the second Death Star so well only his leaks revealed that it was being done. The materials shiped to Endor moon were handled by a private shiping compnay and accounted for less than 1% of their shipping for that six month period. there was no evidence of the construction anywhere in the budget and the troops stationed were not enough to trip any alarms. meaning a Death Star is nothing more than a minor write off in the Imperial Economy.

 

Too bad that Star trek relies on the former and has none of the latter. Even transphasic torpedoes were being adapted to by the Borg and they are thousands of years behind Star Wars.

Well we just note that low levels of power can fry the Enterprise D shields. It is supported by other episodes and incidents.

As for the NX-01 Enterprise that series is so completely noncanon it isn't even funny. That entire series rewrites the Roddenberry's Star Trek history. They aren't even similiar universes.

Okay, Worf made the comment after the blast hit and he checked the shields. Meaning he was reproting how much energy the shields were being depleted. It's rather simple to understand.

Also the Romulan warbird used the planets atmosphere to charbroild the planet. It mearely was the spark.

gigawatts is a very specific term as any physicist will tell you. It applies ONLY to electrical power. Meaning what Worf was talking about was clearly they were cuasing damage that needed 400 gigawatts to counter.

Actually it was real, just like the house, the garden, his wife. Picard makes specific mention that in everyway they are real. Kevin Uxbridge was manipulating matter and energy into real construct. Constructs I must note that were affectable by transporters even though Kevin did not know the Enterprise was still there.

Also the "Husnock" vessel did real harm to the Enterprise D and her crew.

Finally EVERYONE expected 400 gigawatts to tear down the shield, though Worf expected to raise it again quickly.

all in all this gives a great low end sheidling number for the Galaxy CLass Star Ship.

 

Oh yeah the "survivor" dialogue has been worked through by the must desprate of Star Wars Fans...It's not just the ignorance of ignoring the rest of canon, the confirmation from Voyager that one torpedo doesen't breach a Federation starship's shields and the apparent destructability of the weapon itself.

No let's assume 400 gigs is all it takes....Yes, desprate is what I called it.

The fantastical figures they throw up for Star War weapons are the most inept. They figure through their calulatioins as though it's just about a couple of numbers but it's also the effect you see on screen. That effect doesn't gibe with the pure wattage they calculate. Even if it did then that would mean the TL really is just a laser like George Lucas said it was and that's canon...

Yet they want it both ways...Laser calculations, but hey....it's not a laser.

The feature Star Wars Star Trek story on stardestroyer.net "Conquest" highjacked the whole terminology of Star Trek The Next Generation "Survivors" in order give his story a technical sound.

I have to say it worked...The Trek side was believable and as usual the Star War's side was ridiculously uninspiring. It's like George Lucas made another Trilogy.

 

Small details? SMALL DETAILS?

There's nothing small or trivial about the details you've gotten wrong, Scott. In fact, when we're able to correct you on the many points you fudge, we normally discover that your argument is exactly the opposite of what you think it is.

For instance, you erroneously asserted that trees soften the impact of a crash landing. However, the reality is that trees actually increase the likelihood of sustaining damage and injury during a crash. Consequently, your entire argument about the Invisible Hand performing better than the E-D during their respective plummets from high-orbit is not only debunked; it's exactly the oppositive of what you think it is.

You also confused a trilithium device with tri-cobalt device.

Furthermore, do you know what would happen if the scientific community suddenly discovered that the Doppler effect worked in matter exactly opposite to currently held notions? Everything we know about the cosmos would be completely overturned.

There's nothing small about those errors.

Then why did you argue against me when I stated as much?

My father-in-law is an electrician--a darn good one who owns his own business. However, he has no advanced understand of physics, chemistry, or engineering, certainly not the kind of physical and scientific principles we're discussing here.

I congratulate you on being an electrician. However, it has no more bearing on this conversation than my Master's degree in Technical Communication or my 12 collegiate hours of Astronomy.

Where, pray tell, is this figure quoted or evident in any of the movies? This figure means nothing to me without onscreen evidence.

 

Actually, Star Trek uses both.

In the DS9 episode "The Die is Cast," a handful of Romulan and Cardassian ships are able to destroy 30 percent of a planet's crust in single volley lasting mere seconds.

Really?

Would care to cite these other episodes?

Taken in its entirety, Trek history completely rebuffs the notion that such low levels of power would have an affect on a Federation starship.

Enterprise is far more "canon" than the 200 gigaton figure quoted by so many Warsies.

Actually, a gigawatt is simply one billion joules per second, and a joule can measure heat, mechanical work, or electricity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt

You just contradicted yourself. You stated that gigawatts only measure electrical power yet Federation shields do not consist of electrical energy. They work by creating a localized spatial distortion field using energetic gravitons. And, as we've already established, Worf specifically states "particle energy"; ergo, he's not referring to the shields.

Consequently, no matter which definition of gigawatt we use (yours or the real one), gigawatts cannot be used to measure shield depletion in the manner your suggesting. Gigawatts could only possibly be used to measure the shield's electromagnetic or heat dissapation rate.

Proof?

Are you talking about the DS9 episode "The Die is Cast?"

 

Actually, Uxbridge describes himself as a being of "disguise and false surroundings."

Once again, you've completely missed the point.

Uxbridge was virtually omnipotent. If he had wanted, he could've sent Rosie O'Donnell and Barbara Walters after the Enterprise, and destroyed it with a heated interview.

The Husnock ship, the 400 gigawatts, the jacketed streams of antimatter, and everything else are completely irrelevant because they occured at Uxbridge's volition. They were his constructs, and he was telling the ship's sensors what to report...just as he did with Beverly's tricorder.

In fact, he could've completely disabled the Enterprise with an energy reading that measured no greater than a stick of dynamite because he and he alone was dictating sensor readings.

Only because Uxbridge wanted it to. Uxbridge could've sent a Commodore 64 against the Enterprise.

[/quote]Finally EVERYONE expected 400 gigawatts to tear down the shield, though Worf expected to raise it again quickly.

all in all this gives a great low end sheidling number for the Galaxy CLass Star Ship.[/QUOTE]

Only if we dismiss common sense and the the entirety of Trek history.

 

Are you on crack? The Ventors are the Star Destoryers seen in Revenge of the Sith, and Clone Wars.

 

Republic ships can pown. Watch Clone Wars. Turbolasers can destory huge astroids, the astroid look small to the ISD's is because of the 1.6 KM size of the ISD ( source: Star Wars Insider October, 2007 issue ). The Hoth astroid field is huge, they stayed in there for days and no casuties, and they are all 1.6KM ISDs. ISDs have 60 turbolaser batteries, and Turbolaser is better then primitive phasers. Keep in mind that ISDs are weaker then Ventors. Their best Warp Drive is very sad compared to a back-up hyperdrive. Lets see Federation personnel fight a groud battle with ARCs and LATT/i. Star Wars don't waste resources, their Death Star is used as a base and a Superweapon, it is a nessercary weapon. Star Wars's people don't spend money on useless stuff. The UFP need to update their ships. They can attack the exploritory ships, it would take a long time for reinforcements to arrive, so they don't have to worry about the whole Starfleet arrive and outnumber the Open Circle 5th fleet. The UFP don't even have an infantry, so they can go and overwhelme the sercuity with ARCs and RC ( Republic Commandoes ), and Galactic Marines.