Star Wars vs Star Trek

Still, you rapidly deplete your supply of torpedos.

 

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Yeah, but they can make torpedos on the ship and generally they carry a compliment of at least 300 torpedos per launcher. The Ent-E in nemesis was on a diplomatic mission so it wasn't fully fit for battle. It was also refit afterwards with two more photon tubes, a second Rapid Fire Q-Torp turret, Ablative Armor generators, and better shielding - this was partly shown/explained in the extended ending of nemesis.

 

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I grant that most starships will probably not survive a direct hit from any weapons payload capable of destroying planets. Of course, planets don't move at Warp.

 

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The Sovereign and Eclipse classes would likely spell doom for any ST fleet that tries to engage them. Even the Borg would not be able to adapt to that amount of firepower.


Also, you forgot that a replicator needs materiels of the smae kind as what its making to create something( i.e. it needs protein for a steak). Same applys to torpedos. So the question is, how much materiel does a starship have for making torpedos?

And I would ove to see what would happen on the Enterpirse when they beam over Jar Jar.

 

See now this is exactly the kind of assumptions I disagree with. Starfleet vessels have faced more than their share of overweaponed adversaries. You are assuming that a Starfleet armada would stand still and attempt to absorb the firepower. I granted that the weapons are impressive, but even Batman found a way to defeat Darkseid. Starfleet has ingenious strategy and weapons even in canon to hold its own against an adversary that depends completely on the philosophy "bigger is better".

You're correct in stating that a starship will eventually run out of torpedoes. Not only that, who really has the time in the middle of a firefight to replicate torpedoes when they stock runs out?

1. Star Wars does not have matter-energy transporters, they will not "beam over" Jar Jar. Doubtful that Enterprise would do it voluntarily, unless he's a prisoner.
2. Picard would probably out talk him while Riker directed the firefight with a Microsoft Sidewinder, who knows?

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I mean when Enterprise beams them over.

And a Sovereign or Ecilpse likely would defeat any ST fleet, even if you attempt to manuvar around a 18 km long ship. Remember, the Eclipse has very powerful tactical engines, and you would be entering the engine "wash" by going behind it, which would limit you to the sides, front, top, and bottom. And all have loads of guns.

Basically, if your in front of an Eclipse or Sovereign, your screwed. And the Ecipse 1, while taking 8 years to build ( construction started in 0 bby), the Ecipse 2 took only a few months to build. That means that with Kuat possibly producing a good 3 or 4 Eclipses every few months, then ST would have a very, very, very, hard time fighting them. The first Eclipse was a Prototype, and prototypes both in real life and in Sci Fi take a while to compleate. But once the prototype is compleat, the manufacturing process becomes easier, as it is not a first time experience.

I was assuming that in an all out slugfest, apporx. half the St armada in the battle would be destroyed by an Eclipse or Sovereign, the rest being delt with by the fleet of ISDs that accompany those two kinds of ships ( Their usually reserved for adimirals or as the flagship of a fleet. They have been known to carry royality before, however. IF I'm not mistaken, theres quite a few Adimirals in the Imperial Fleet. And such bodies ussually command a great deal of starships.) Their escorted because of their firepower, their cost, and their immense number of support ships.

Now lets make a simulation. What would happen if the Enterprise-E and 6 other Sovereigns warped into real space to the fore and starboard of an Eclipse, which has a small fleet of 30 VSDs and 4 ISDs protecting it? If ST weapons are as powerful as you say, they should be able to take out all the ships. However, remeber that the Eclipse has the equivalent firepower of about half the DS2 ( Add up the total firepower of the Axial Superlaser and the 550 heavy turbolaser batteries, 500 turbolaser batteries, and about 100 tractor beam projectors. Batteries in SW refers to groups of guns.) The Sovereign is the most powerful ship in the Federation arsenal, and the Eclipse is the most powerful in the Empire's. The eclipse can ram ships and not have so much as a scratch on it. Who is likely to win? Also remember that the Axial superlaser equals death with a single hit to anything it hits.

 

Hmmmm, well, you forget how maneuverable ST ships are especially in this case, the Sovereign Class. Quantum torpedoes would most likely be the primary choice of weapons. However, assuming this is post-voyager, they would be equiped with transphasic torps, and that is devistating! It doesn't matter how large your ship is, it is practically a chain reaction weapon of some sort, because when "25th Century" style USS Voyager was goeing through the Borg Transwarp Hub it fired two transphasics at the transwarp ring (as it left for the Earth through it), destroying the entire Transwarp Hub. Just as a note, that ring was an extreamly small part of the entire complex.

 

What do you mean by real space?

 

Although, you would still have to worry about the torpedo hitting shields or being destroyed by the torrent of fire that would be raining down on you. If the Eclipse can turn around in time (remember that it has very, very, very, powerful sublight engines), you can expect to lose a Sovereign or 3. And thats not including the massive number of of ships escorting it. You would have a litterall wall of ships between you and it. And I shudder to think what would happen if it got a tractor beam lock on each Sovereign. Theres alot of tractor beam projectors on the Eclipse alone, and the fleet would immobilize you very quickly. Now what would happen if the Enterprise-E was hit by a 18 km long ship moving very very fast? Or its Axial Superlaser?

 

I mean the space that we live in, not the ultra strange dimensions of hyperspace and warp. That means they drop out of FTL warp, not disengage the warp field.

 

Actually, the engine-wash from the Eclipse likely won't even bother a Fed Starship - remember, even something as small as the Delta Flyer was able to withstand being inside the intense pressures of a STAR without problem while it's metaphasic shields were up. The ion propulsion system of the Eclipse wouldn't be much of a problem - either they'd be absorbed by the shields or they'd be deflected by the navigational deflector. Remember, they ARE a particle that has mass. Heat is no problem (even without metaphasic shields the USS Defiant was able to skim the corona of a star)

If the Ent-E was hit by the Eclipse 2? Would NEVER happen. The Ent-E has a thousand times the manuverability of the Eclipse 2 by sheer virtue of - what would happen, physically, to an object of such mass and volume that attempted an intense manuver as, say, a 180* turn in two seconds? It would tear itself to pieces... yet the Ent-D could turn on 90* it's axis in a little more than one second and go to warp without even straining the ship. The Ent-E is five times as manuverable as the Ent-D due to better thrusters and a stronger SIF.

Also, to be honest, the Ent-E would PROBABLY plough thru the Eclipse 2's hull... why?

Flat object impacted by an arch.
Arch is, naturally, the stronger object.

Consider the armor plating and reinforced bulkheads, PLUS the SIF and shields, and the Eclipse 2 is looking at withstanding one hell of an impact.

And the Ent-E would NEVER venture in front of the Axial SuperLaser and, even if it did, the pulse would move far too slow to hit it - remember, Star Wars superlasers are
1) pulsed weapons (you can see the pulses move down the beam)
2) Slower than Light (I'd say around Mach 2 at best given the DS vs Aldaraan scene)
3) Need to charge and coerce into a single beam at the point of egress.

The tractor emitters on the Eclipse 2 probably wouldn't affect the Sovereigns - their shields are designed to be immune to tractor beams via auto-rotational frequencies. Even if a tractor SHOULD lock onto it, it could pulse it's own emitter at an inverse frequency to disrupt it, or could simply rip the emitter off the ship by adding the warp engines into their sub-light speed (which HAS been done)

I will give you this- the engine wash would buffet the Ent-E and probably send smaller vessels sliding off course - however, things like the Defiant and BoP's would be INCREIDBLY difficult to hit given their speed and manuverability. Basicly, something ten times faster and more agile than an X-Wing and twenty times the size... but much better shielded and armored. It'd be a hard target to hit, much less bring down. Then, we have the federation fighters (faster and smaller than an X-wing with pulse phasers as their primary weapon) and other small ships (like the delta flyer) that are the size of an X-Wing but far better armed and defended.

 

This is exactly the point Kitt...haloguy assumes that a Starfleet vessel or fleet would sit in front of the superweapon of his Wars ship of choice, and go "ho hum" while they detect said weapon charging up.

Honestly Wars' best chance of defeating Trek is to strike planets, but they'd have to accomplish it before being ripped apart by quantum torpedoes, antimatter spreads, tricobalt torpedoes, deflector charges, and good old 25th century time weapons.

 

Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, but since it isn't an option... I'll go with Star Trek.

 

True... the Heart of Gold's improbability drive would wtfpwn both Trek and Wars by turning them all into potted plants or sommat...

 

Or a rubber ducky. Anyway, I can tell you that it wasn't moving at Mach 2. Even modern space probes are moving faster then that. Mach 2 is about a mile every seven seconds.
That thing reached from moon orbit to the planet in about 3 seconds. Its a hell of a lot faster then Mach 2. The eclipse beam doesn't charge or coerce, its a single beam. There is no meeting of any beams. You saw the picture i showed you of the Eclipse. Its shaped like a triangle. ISDs have 4 slopes on them. The Eclipse has three: a flat top and a quite clearly severly sloping bottom. Also remeber that this is a fleet of ships they have never encountered before. That means that data is likely to scan the ships. Now we know that takes about three seconds to do, about the same time it takes for a superlaser to travel the millions of miles between a planet and its moon. This is a considerably shorter distance were talking about. And knowing that a ship or two is liable to accidently slip in front of it, what would happen. Remember, a single tractor beam might not effect the Enterprise, but what about 100? If the Eclipse did that, then you could expect to lose ships very fast. Alos, ships the size of the Millenium Falcon have been known to survive inside the corona of a sun as well. They are not the exreamly frail ships you think they are. The Eclipse 2 rammed the Galaxy Gun, cutting a station the size of the Federation HQ in half, and didn't take any real damage, only being destroyed when the Galaxy Gun's last projectile detoneted on Byss, destroying the Eclipse in the resulting explosion. And remember, the Ion engines are a much more powerful and effiecent versions of what we have today. That means that the engines of the Eclipse can get something the size of one of Mar's moons (Phobos or Deimos, forget which), which is heavier then the moons (denser metals, tremedous amount of armor, and huges amounts of equipment), to thousands of km an hour in seconds. Modern engines take weeks just to get something up to about half a km per second. That means we're talking about particles moving pretty damn close to the speed of light. Now my question is, since Newton's Third Law describes that everything has a counter force, why do you keep insisting they have weak hulls? The ship has to put up with same amount of stress per square inch that it exerts in thrust(i.e. 4800 pounds of thrust means that the jet has to put up with 4800 pounds of pressure per square inch). Now with an Eclipse or ISD, you have a much greater amount of pressure all over the ship (Something on the order of 500,000,000 kilotons of pressure per square inch. SW ships thrust are measurd in kilotons. This implys that the metal their made of can withstand acceleration stresses.)Also, the ship is still in realspace when it is in Hyperspace. It is just the version of space you would see if you could move millions of times faster then light. Now think of the acceleration streeses from that. We know that ST ships would get ripped to shreads by the dust that hits thm were it not for the shields. There is no acceleration in warp however. And I am aware that SW has shields that are designed for hyperspace travel. BUT SW ships don't nullify acceleration.

 

Do remember, an energy surge like that will be IMEDIATELY picked up and tactics will be taken to avoid being hit.

Also, I was talking about the Death Star's superlaser, my mistake.

By Weak Hull, I mean WEAK IN COMPARISON- obviously both have very strong hulls, though a ship in Star Trek has survived going to warp without even a SIF with litle damage.

Hyperspace is not Realspace per say, but I know what you mean.

And there is acceleration in Warp - hence why there is a maximum normal acceleration - the Ent-D went to Warp 9.95 in VERY short order, but it resulted in severe stress to the hull.

 

Ah, but does the Empire attack everything it sees?

 

Mostly. If you are an unidentified intruder, they will immediately hail you, giving you warnings to leave the system or area. If you do not comply, you are fired upon. Pretty much what happens over restricted air space. If you don't know what it is, and you want it out of the system, and it does not comply with your orders, its either an enemy or its abandoned.

I forgot about the energy surge thing. However, as Ent-D said, SW could cut a very large and bloody swath through ST with Eclipses and Sovereigns. The spped and firepower of the ships would allow for quite a few Federation worlds to end up as very big fireballs in a very short time. Also, I shudder to think what would happen if an Eclipse was fired at the sun. And rememer, SW has proven to have extreamly durable ships, as well as nigh-invincible torpedos ( Tey have missles and torpedos that are made out of the same kind of stuff as the Suncrushers armor. I don't think the Federation would be able to stop those.). The Suncrusher had to be thrown into a black hole to be destroyed. Nothing else worked. Also, we do know that the Empire was mass-producing Sovereigns, as for were in construction over Byss when it was destroyed. Apparently, they were the lead ships of the group, and were intended to escort the Eclipse series ( 2 Eclipse's, 4 Sovereigns) If such a tiny battlegroup were to hit a Federation planet, then you would have tremendous casualties on the ST side. Also, bare in mind that ST likely would not learn of the Eclipse or Sovereign until a fleet engagement. If a single ship runs across them, the scans it makes will be destroyed with it. The same with a group of 5 or so ships. You would need a massive fleet of about 20-25 ships before the Eclipse and Sovereign were discovered because any smaller and they would be destroyed too quickly for the information to be transmitted to HQ.

 

I understand why the empire would kill ewoks,

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but not a race they'd never seen before.

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Basically, if ST were to make first contact with SW, the ship ST sent would be blasted into its componet atoms long before it can send a signal back to HQ. Remember, warp is a bending of space-time. The Yuuzhan Vong drives used gravity strong enough to warp space time as propulsion. The Imperial sensors could pick up the gravitic distortions made by the ships. Now even if warp doesn't emit a gravitic signature, the energy requiered to sustain said field would be tremendous, hence the need for antimatter reactors. Said energy signature would be a very large "kill me" beacon to the imperials. Now, I know ST can sense another ship's energy signature when its at warp. That means that they would give off the same signature to the Imperials. Now, combined with the relatively slow speed of warp, this means you would have a very large welcoming party at any attack. The large the energy signature, the larger the ship or fleet.

Correct me if I'm wrong.