Star Wars vs Star Trek

I'm afraid that SW is Distopian, which is the more realistic one. Utopia means everything is perfect, everyone gets along. Now realistically, that could never happen. You can never get people to stop murder or rape. You can never stop greed and poverty.

 

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Actually SW is more like reality that even TOS was. There is several different economic classes, a real sense of commerce, Effective Organized crime (Hutts and Black Sun), and everything we have today and number of things we want. Hell, Bacta alone would change medical care.

 

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As for you thinking that I was lying about the cloak thing, in Undiscovered Country, a BoP is hit by a Photon Torpedo while cloaked. There was no shield. Now SW ships with cloaks have been known to withstand bombardment for hours when there is a surprise attack.

 

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Yes, but a BoP is a small ship... and Klingon cloaks kind of suck.

Look at the Scimitar (Nemesis) for an example - primary and secondary shielding, thalaron cloak, and the ability to fire thru the cloak- all without taxing the reactor at all.

And yes, Star Wars is more Distopian than Utopian. However, I believe Trek's vision can, and will, happen. It will be but a short step...

How many people here have read Ray Kurzweil's The Singularity Is Near? If you haven't look up what it means to be a Singularitarian and what Singularity is. Trek is but a stepping stone of Human progress towards that. It won't be true Utopian (yes, people will always disagree) BUT the hope is we can get people to the point where such things can be done safely. A founding principal of it is the idea of Universal Reality... but that's another discussion that could go on for weeks.

If anyone is interested in this sort of thing, shoot me a PM and we'll discuss it further- one of my good friends who understands it a LOT better than I do showed me the ideas behind it and I have to say that, if the general public were to understand this idea fully, it would already be implemented.

 

The cloaking device used by the Klingons denies them the use of conventional (anti)weapons shielding. Likely because the cloak itself uses the same shield emitter system. Take a look at Generations, where Riker gives the Duras' BoP a two(?) second switch time between Data's forced decloak and the automatic raising of the BoP's conventional shield.

Before 'The Undiscovered Country' Klingons also could not fire while cloaked (which is also a limitation of the Romulan cloak, until 'Nemesis').

 

Though that does suggest that larger ships don't have shields with their cloaks.

 

How so? I think I misunderstood what you said Halo - large ships don't USE shields with their cloaks engaged right? That would be true- the larger the ship, the more power it takes to cover it with the shields and the more power the cloaking device requires to fully mask the ship.

Thing like the Defiant, which has an incredibly overpowered warp core (if I remember right, the Defiant's warp core output is 1/2 that of a galaxy class starship according to Sisko) which is why it has a relatively short theater of operations (fuel storage is limited) but this allows for an incredibly powerful shielding array and weapons arrays as well as a very high maximum warp and the ability to cloak and travel full warp without stressing the core. They can do both shields and cloak, but it creates disturbances in the cloak that make it possible to detect the ship. That's why most ships with high-power warp cores still don't do both.

 

Klingon ships, all of them, cannot use conventional shields while the cloak is engaged. I only speculated that it is because the cloak is a shield in and of itself attuned to reflect sensors and other detection systems that use the same emmission system as the (anti)weapons shields.

Kitt may be right in that it's a power limitation or a feasibility limitation (why use a cloak simultaneously with shields when the regular shields would give the ship away). I will have to look this up.

Suffice it to say, that Klingon ships are not shielded against conventional weapons if their cloak is up.

Romulan ships appear to be affected such that they cannot fire weapons under cloak(with the exception of the blown-to-bits Scimitar). They however do not appear hindered by the Klingon limitation, as seen in STTNG: Redemption (part II) where Data orders weapons fire on three cloaked Warbirds which are revealed to the sensors but largely unharmed by the torpedos (albeit Data did order the torpedo yield lowered). Or by the Scimitar in 'Nemesis' although strictly this is Reman property.

 

Why do people keep ignoring my point against SW sheilds? Honestly, when the Rep Cruiser engaged the Hand the Rep Cruiser looked reletivily undamaged yet when ships exchanged fire, the Rep Cruiser had been delt heavy damage to the hull. So, if the Cruiser did have shields, did they buckle under earlier because of heavy fire from CIS ships? If true, why would they stop firing afterwards? Remember the Rep Cruiser looked undamaged. So does SW not really have shields or are their commanding officers complete idiots? Either way it isn't a good day for SW.

:itold:​

 

Star Wars is far from realistic. It says so in the begining of EVERY movie: "Long long time ago, in a galaxy far away." There are supposedly one trilion people on courescant, how could there possibly not be any crime. The average crime rate is about 17 murders per 100,000 inhabitants, 500+ cases of theft, and probably hundreds of more crimes. I'm surprised that a planet that populated hasn't dresroyed itself.

It's just a movie, i guess.

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uke:

 

And yet again your selective memory fails you.

A: The Republic Venerator was damaged, but not heavily. Possible considering the Republic was calling in cruisers from nearby systems to fight the Seperatists. The vessel did have to fight it's way to the Invisible Hand and obviously suffer some damage, which meant it had lost it's shields in the process.

B: The Hand was still carrying the Supreme Chancellor. The Star Destroyers goal was to keep Invisible Hand form escaping, not destroy it. So after taking light damage, but inflicting far more damage on Invisible Hand the cammonds followed orders and ceased fire.

 

Didn't you notice the man selling Deathsticks(much like PCP and Cocaine mixed together) in the bar? Did you see anyone batt an eye when Obi-Wan sliced off the shapechangers arm? Yes a world that crowded would have crime, but crime is not the cornerstone of the story so it is pushed to the background.

However your assertation that"Long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far way" is somehow less realistic than only a few hundred years in the future, is just illogical at the very least.

 

We are not that close to the center of the Universe. Galaxys closer to it would be older and would have life in them before ours. The farther away you get from the center, the younger the galaxy. Now ours is about the age of the Universe, but there are closer galaxy's. Given that the newest era for the SW's galaxy puts it at 2.2 billion years after the Big Bang, it is considerably closer to the center. Their galaxy would be one of the first 10-15 galaxys ever made. And then theres the problem for ST of tech progressing for another billion years (Our galaxy was formed about 3.2 billion years after, and then you add how long it took for the various factions in ST to advance to their current levels). Granted, ST could go back in time, but what about crossing the distances between Galaxies? Given that warp is slow, it would take centuries, even millenia, for ST to cross the void. Basically, it ends in a stalemate.

 

Hey grandpa

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We all know that Warsie ships in the movies demonstrate either no shields or useless shields. The most they got are safety forcefields like the docking bay and engineering ones, inside the ships.

We do not care about TW's insistence that he sees flashes in the movies that are shield impacts. I also give very little credence to shields mentioned in the EU since I consider some of it written specifically to attempt to bring SW up to speed with all the other scifi titles, esp Star Trek.

 

So they seem useless becuase you can't see them? I am reminded of a qoute from a movie: "Just becuase you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there". And TW is not the only one that sees the flash. Look for it on google.

 

They are useless because they are not there! In all SW movies every shot that doesn't miss - which in and of itself is a miracle - hits hull baby.

 

Really, then how come the shots hit the hull, and eventully injured the crew (Clones:runaway

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? And there are no sheild impacts!

:crazy:​

 

Aren't there, huh? Then explain this picture.

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Or this picture, in which you can clearly see the shields:

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Guys, Wars has shields... period. Maybe they aren't effective at all times, but they DO exist.