Star Wars vs Star Trek

No, he stated no such thing. Please refresh my memory if I'm wrong.
The plasma plan was stated to be effectual because it would liquify the Borg organics. Plus the Queen's brain remained active until Picard snapped the metal spinal cord. The Queen was the last to die...all the drones were dead first.

Assumptions. The Borg hive mind controls TRILLIONS of biological beings at once. I'd think that qualifies as a very large force of will.

Very, very contrived wouldn't you say? It suggests however that Trek has technology that would be effective against Jedi. Simply beam them into holodecks and use tractors to hold them

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Really? Who cares?

Well maybe I do a little. Darth Bane is dead. His "effect" on the real world after death was a hologram. Congratulations on a silly technicality

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Yes, Exar Kun has an effect on the physical plane (he killed ONE guy), but he was never recreated as a physical entity, could only do ghostly stuff (like extract souls etc) and his spectral self was destroyed by jedi knights, Luke and his own spectral-form past master.

The Borg Queen has yet to be permanently conquered canonly. Far less for the Borg hive mind.

As far as I am seeing, references online are very confused, but most of them settle between 2 to 3 trillion. I'm not taking your word on this.

Absolute rubbish, you cannot assume that (or else why stop there...maybe only 1 joule hit the shields!). Seven could not make that assumption either - the mission was to the core of the anomaly - or else it could have meant Paris and Chakotay vapour. You have to accept in canon that the energy stated is the energy they have to contend with. Don't blame me TW, you're the one that insisted on canon evidence. I'm providing it.

 

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Just like anyother species they will be filled with joy and happiness

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signing out for the weekend

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peace

 

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Nanite technology is also used by the Federation (as stated on various episodes by Dr. Crusher - TNG and the EMH - VOY). Interestingly enough I don't remember Dr. Bashir ever using them...but that's besides the point. They're proven Trek tech.

 

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There is no evidence that they died. And furthermore, Picard did not retain everything about the Borg. IF he had, his brain would explode from the knowldege of the hive. This is supported by the fact that he only had fading memories of the Borg Queen which only started appearing when the Borg had returned. And Picard had wanted to capture the Engineering section to regain control of the ship. The leak was part of the orginal plan and was so that the borg would easily be killed by it.

They are not weak individuals, they are a strong hive mind.

Wow, Ben and Yoda must really be douch bags...

Good thing the Borg can launch nano-torps and assimilate the planet within seconds...

 

Sorry, midichlorians are not in Star Trek. We would have heard of them by now. The simple fact of the matter is, that Lucas does not override other canons because of his own canon. While in the star wars area, he is right in this regard, but in Star Trek, they do not exist. In fact, if they did, SW would be fucked when they UFP decides to increse their midichlorian accounts to such a high level that their Jedi powers would be much higher than even Vader's. This is proven by the fact that an old TOS episode had this very same ordeal. In fact, the powers used where very much like the force in and of itself...wow, Lucas sure was orginal wasn't he?:m:

 

Correct.
Before the break of interstellar war. Large fleets were considered to be in the 10's and twenties. The Klingon Civil wars showed that star fleet rarely operated in larger than 20 ship fleet sizes...

Yes...Their estimate obviously were exagerated for including a massive attack force, planetary shield or a thicker crust than usual....But Yes...This was obviously and outstanding example of superior fire power...30% in just the first volley...

Well I geuss it was under an hour if they'd been allowed to continue.

Exactly!

 

Jesus was I the only one who paid attention to Dialog in First Contact. yes the plan was considered good becuase it would take care of all the borg in engineering (which they knew would seal up) but they also knew the borg moved beyond engineering. As the Queen was being destroyed Borg OUTSIDE the plasma cloud were being destroyed by feed back. Her implants my still have been slightly functional but the damage of her death DID take out many borg outside the Plasma.

If this was true the Borg would not have fallen for the Sleep command , they could have simply reassimiliated Hugh without loosing even a single Borg, and they could have simply countered One by force of will. No the borg have the opposite of will they have no sense of self except the Queen, and like the Borg she is easy to trick.

Not that anyone in Trek would know all this. In fact they would be at a complete loss as to explain force powers. Thye certainly would have no idea how to contain one, or even have a definative way of recognizing them. Remember Count Dooku was a Jedi and knew of Obi-Wan and knew how to keep him reasonably restrained.

Sure they just choose a new Borg Queen, but for a short time the Collective is in chaos. Any pressure from the outside and it will fall apart.

As for Darth Bane he has had more effect than a mere Dark force spirit, but you would need to read to find out.

Population
One of the most notable inconsistencies concerns the planet's population. Most recent Expanded Universe sources, such as the novel Traitor and the sourcebooks Inside the Worlds of The Phantom Menace and Coruscant and the Core Worlds, have stated a population of one trillion for Coruscant; other canon sources have given widely divergent, but typically much lower, figures, such as five billion, 10 billion, 100 billion, 176 billion and 650 billion: quite apart from the discrepancy between them, all these figures have been criticized by some fans as vastly underestimating the population-density of a planet-wide city. The Star Wars Technical Commentaries website, for instance, argues for a population "at least of the order of several quadrillion (>1,000,000,000,000,000), and certainly no less than several hundred trillion". [1]

One possible solution would be to read the statements of "one trillion" as referring to the traditional meaning of trillion instead of the more common American way. This would make one trillion equal 10^18 instead of 10^12, reconciling both canon statements and canon observations.

Considering that even if we multply Earth's current population by a thousand and we would still not be anywhere near the density we see in TPM, AOTC, or ROTS..... I have to say movie trumps literature.

Excuse me moron, but if you can't understand how energy actually radiates from an object that is your fault. NO ONE in their right mind thinks that when and unshaped un tamped kilo of TNT goes up that 4,180,000 joules goes to one specific pinpoint spot or in a specific direction. To give another example

Luminosity of Sol : 386 Yotta Watts (10^24)
Power Earth derives from the Sun : 174 petawatts (10^15)

This means that .00000000045% of Sol's power affect Earth.

Hell even your measley 30,000 million Terajoules is only 3x10^19 watts per second radiated in every direction. A Heavy Turbolaser is 7.8375X10^20 in one direction affecting a 400cm^2 area on impact. Your trying to compare a Warming light to an acetylene cutting torch

 

That's correct.
My first figures were for a blast radius of 5 ly.
My second set of figures were for a blast radius of Earth's solar system. 100,000 AU's.
My Third set of figures only accounted for a blast radius that could endager most of the planets in our solar system. That was a distance of 49 AU...

As that comes out an Isoton is 129.85 Mega tons.
That's based on the fact that the Hiroshima bomb at 77 Kilotons had blast radius of a mile. Thus a One Megaton explosion would have the blast radius of 7 miles.

I did not realize ...300 kilometers. I wonder what the Isotonage would be from a 300 km blast?

Well...lets see. 300 km would equal about 186.41 miles.
-Divide 186.41 by 7 a seven miles blast radius would bring that explosion to...

26.63 Megatons

 

Yeah. I no what you mean.

correct.

I believe that, yes, this is in comparision to TNT as that is what Megatons is based off of.

According to history the Hiroshima bomb was 77 kilotons.

I agree with you here. Star Trek has shown major destructive potential in the numbers department. And then in the scripts they tell us there are limitations to that same technology.

Trek fans hate this most of all...the inconsistency in story and plot devices that can occur.

 

If only you were as half as smart as the sites you cut and paste from....You're the moron, TWScrotum. You've proved it time an time again. If you had figured all this out...

1. You wouldn't be Lying half as much as you do.
2. You wouldn't be insulting others inteligence when yours is in obvious dire straits
3. You'd been listening at some points to the contradictions the fans have brought up, instead of ignoring them.

Your credibility has been shot from the time I arrived.

 

Scott, what about this:

Starship = BIG FUCKING LIGHTNING ROD

Soon as it enters the self contained storm, a large portion of it's energy would try to escape thru and into it.

Think of it like a lightning strike... it's a single, basicly incoherent bolt of electricity generated by a positive and negative charge (static).

yet it's force impacts a relatively small area with nearly it's ENTIRE energy.

 

Ah, alright then. Thank you very much.=)

Ah, thank you very much. So we have a low estimation of about 26.63 megatons in the TNG era, given that we are told they can modify their torp yields, this isn't a contradiction.

 

Fun fact actually, in Star Trek, the writers where choice on being obscure on fleet sizes just in case they ever decided to do something like Deep Space Nine.

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Yes, and the fact that we don't know what their calculations included could have means there where other reasons as well. But again, 30% of the crust was destroyed, so its hardly a problem either way.

True.

 

Agreed. However, I would like to point out that Riker was pretty much on edge here. I think he may have said that so as to hope that it would convince the Captain to fire a mass of photons and thus leave no trace of the ship or the Phase Cloak. We also know that Riker didn't want to find the Phase Cloak because he felt guilty about the experiments.

But yeah, that was pretty annoying on how they just seem to contradict firepower at times. Don't even get me started on that Warp Core.:bawl:

 

...No, you where the only one who wasn't paying any attention. The crew wanted to take Main Engineering because that's where the Borg had routed all of the controles. Notice how data was able to fire the weapons from there? Its because the Borg routed the controls to that area. Thus, Picard had data lock out the main computer and their goal was then to head to Main Engineering to take the area. They planned on puncturing one of the plasma exhaust pipes (or whatever) to kill the borg before they might decide to raise a shield. The crew would then pump it out while outside of the area (sorta like what Data did), then head in and re-take the ship and beam the borg into space, or just de-materilize them and delete the pattern.

Now, the Borg Queen was constructed to maximize the permformance of the collective. The Queen serves as the combined mind of the drones. In the 21st century, there was the Borg Collective, but their technology likely wasn't as large as they where able to have their collective network reach the Borg near Earth. The sphere, the only thing that could possibly reach that far, was destroyed by the Enterprise E. Thus, they built a Queen (or perhaps she came with them, apparently she can be built on any Borg ship) to act as their center for a hive mind. Basicly, the poor man's processer. This is further proven by the fact that the Borg where trying to contact the Borg of their time. Had they managed to pull it off, its very likely that they would have connected with the hive mind and thus managed to rejoin with the large borg network. While its true that the Borg would no longer be able to assimilate 24th century Earth, the Borg had already gained most of the knowledge from their battle with the UFP fleet on the way to Sector 001 (its a proven fact that they assimilate some of the people as shown in Voyager where a freed Borg claimed to be at the battle of Wolf 359), and to top it all off, they would have 24th Borg technology, thus vastly boosting Borg power of the time.

However, when the Borg Queen died, the damage to the collective caused a feedback, causing damage to the Borg hive mind. However, given by evidence from Voyager where 7 of 9 could still opperate in the Borg Collective's interests by re-joining them. Also, an experience as a drone where she and three other Borg drones where seperated from the collective, they built a small network and it took a while for it to break down. Granted, the crash likely damaged the drones given that in Enterprise the two drones they found acted just like normal dones. They even partially assimilated others and quickly began to Borgify assimilated ships. These drones where destroyed when Reed increased the firepower of his phase gun, but this is expected as the drones had fallen from space after their sphere was blown up by four Quantum Torps and hit the ground, where frozen for years in Antarctica, and upon revival, their nanoproves regenerated.

As fucked up as those Borg drones where, they where pretty efficient.

You fail at basic science. Lacutas was part of a network, the Borg Network to be exact. In fact, his access was very limited and was only able to exploit a small loophole. The Borg even turned and headed back to stop them, but it was far too late. Furthermore, as with the example with Hugh, they had purged all of his memories out of the collective, or at least thought they had. He apparently managed to hide it in a way he was sure they wouldn't check. Upon doing so, as his independant thought entered the Hive Mind, through the Borg Probe ship that he had been networked into, the Collective felt the harming presence and locked the probe out so as to save the rest of the collective from falling apart. The borg who where with him on the ship apparently had problems, crashed and became individuals.

And to sum it all up, you have little understanding of the Borg. You see, you claim that the individual drone is a weak minded zombie...but this is not true. You see, the Queen isn't bossing around mindless zombies, she is the collective. She is made up of the thoughts of the entire collective. However, this is also true for each drone, each drone is part of the greater hive mind, so they are never actually alone, hence why they aren't individuals. The Borg Queen is different as she is what chooses what to do over all the trillions of possible choices. Her role is to bring order to the chaos of voices. She is basicly the avatar of what the collective is, given a physical form.

A borg drone is not a weak minded zombie who Vader can mind fuck, for instead of an empty or single mind, he is facing well over trillions of minds over the area of an entire galaxy. If he attempted to try to mind control them, he would literally be driven insane from the experience.

Except that the UFP has shown to be able to detect telepathic abilties before (I recall Bashir being able to do so in DS9). And not only that, these people have come to see Q, and in fact a telepath so strong that he can read your mind without even meaning to. They have dealt with thins much more dangerous than a Jedi with a few hand tricks. And furthermore, their typical manuver for locking down an invader is to cut him off with a containment field, which Ben and Anakin seemed unable to get out of without the help of a droid. Not to mention that they could then easily lock onto the Jedi, de-materilize them, and then delete their pattern.

Wait, you mean the Queen who wouldn't be on board, the Queen who, even if she was, would be in a secure chamber surronded by force fields and drones armed with disruptors? The drones that rival Data in strength, and can assimilate technological and biological beings? Not to mention that Vader's otufit doesn't have a chance of warding off the assimilation tubes as the tubes can puncture most known ST armor and even shields? And this is in a Borg cube which has demonstrated the ability to use containment fields? And this is assuming that Vader knows about the Queen and where exactly seh's located in an exceptionally confusing maze of a ship that is miles long with no clear indication of what is what? And assuming that he does manage to know where he's going, that the Borg drones just ignore him walking around and cutting them down without pause?

 

Cut and paste? I gleaned informtaion and made calculation on my own. As for my credibility, all you've done is improved mine and proven yourself incapable of performing any sort of rebuttal except a ad hominem attack.

Since this is the only responce you had to my valid post, I'm guessing you have retreated to your usual tactic of throwing a temper tantrum.

 

First of all Lightning actually does very little damage to what it strikes, remember the lightning goes up to the clouds. Lightning however can do a lot of damage to the objects it passes through skyward. Then again it can also leave them relatively unharmed as well.

Second for an effect like you are expressing you have to PROVE that is the way it happened, or the defualt assumption is that energy is released in every direction at once, which quickly whittles away at your 30,000 terawatts.

 

Again, you miss the point. Chakotay stated what should have happened, and then he asked Harry Kim. However, as we know that photons have variable yields that the crew can modify and we know they where using them against what they had thought to be astroids, its logical to that Chakotay gave the expected results and that Kim further confirmed something was amiss when he said that they shouldn't have been larger than a centimeter. So, Chakotay said what they had expected, but Kim gave the max paramiteres as to what should have happened to the astroid.

So, at best it should have been vaporised, and at worst it shouldn't have been larger than a centimeter. And then in another episode, Kirk struggles with the idea that he may have to destroy a colony of millions of people on a planet in order to stop the spread of a parasite.

Really? Because we just saw the small piece that after being blown apart, fell to the planet and broke up. There wouldn't be much left to see likely. And again, its very apparent that they where somehow shielded or armored given how tough they where. To deny this is to ignore what is said in the episode.

Are you really that much of an idiot?:bugeye:

Sensors being fooled doesn't depend upon how tough, or even what size something is, but rather the density and the materials used. Some ships use materials (such as Cardassian transport ships and smugglers) to make it hard or nearly impossible for sensors to penetrate. The weapon in question was disguised as a rock, and by some method, either gave back false sensor readings, or had some sort of exotic materials below what the sensors picked up.

Oh, and as per more levels of firepower, we have in A Taste of Armageddon where Kirk gives General Order 24, which is the order given when a planet is to be destroyed. Commander Scotty then calls in to warn the planet that if Kirk and the others are not released, the Enterprise will fire upon the planet. He says:

"This is the Commander of the USS Enterprise. All cities and instalations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and feed into our fire control system. In one hour and forty five minutes, the entire inhabitabed surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."

That means the surface of the planet will be destroyed in one hour and forty-five minutes...against a planet that has been dedicated to war for 500 years and has already attempted to destroy the ship several times. This is one ship doing this.

 

Oh, and I would also like to clear up that information on the Doom's Day Device. The USS Constellation was badly damaged and when Kirk managed to get it running, all it had where sensors, engines, and one charge phaser bank. Both the Constellation and the Enterprise tried to blast at the outer hull, which was impossible to break through. After Decker commited suicide by running his ship into the mouth and causing minor damage to the ship, Kirk decided to use the Constellations Impule Engines, which are fused base, as a means of self-destructing, causing around 98 megatons.

Now, as to why they didn't blast it with photons, the Doomsday Device seemed to be able to neturalize Antimatter for a short time at least, as this is what caused both of the ships to lose their warp drive. Thus, launching photons a the ship would be no more effective than throwing rocks at it. What Kirk did with the Constellation was causing overtaxed and damaged engines to self-destruct and deal a blow from the inside, where neither ships could have hoped to achive with anti-matter due to the enemies ability to counter it. Thus, it wasn't a matter of lacking firepower to hit it in the mouth, but rather a matter of lacking the right kind of firepower to hit it in the mouth.

 

Ah! is that the Asteroid we're talking about? Well technically I feel either there was some exageration or a degree of inforbidity in that comment.

First in the case of the Asteroid the Pegasus was incased in, It really was huge. Planet scale or moon scale. However to take out the asteriod you'd need to vaporize it...and the Enterprises torpedo load couldn't do that in the time necessary. That's what should have been said. We know in Voyager that Kim insisted just the opposite.

So it really is a contradiction. In this case I tend to lead away from "in story plot devices that haven't been proven before." In this case there's proof that Trek has easily done it before.

We know Trek has contradictions. It's a matter of whether this was a moment where we have to suspend belief in light of opposing contradictions.