Star Wars vs Star Trek

By the way- in Revenge of the Sith, it is stated that DURASTEEL melted when in contact with LAVA...

that's not terribly hot compared to the plasma of a starship... so no plasma based propulsion, power, or weapons for you scott.

 

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Or, of course gas turbines - jet engines, y'know?
Used today in many locations as power sources.

 

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Gas Turbines = Steam Turbines... same idea. Pressure from expanding gases turn the blades.

 

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What is at first thought to be a senseless death becomes the key to destroying the Doomsday Machine. The explosion of the shuttlecraft produces a minute power drop in the device. Kirk has the damage control teams beamed back to the ship, and orders Scotty to rig the impulse engines, now capable of almost one-third impulse, to explode at Kirk's command. His plan is to use the impulse engines, each capable of generating a 97.835 megaton explosion when overloaded, to try to destroy the planet-killer from the inside. Scotty sets the 30-second delay and, per Kirk's order, beams to the Enterprise. Kirk approaches the planet-killer at over 50 kilometers per second relative speed, then within 15 seconds slows his approach to approximately 10km/sec. Kirk thereby pilots the Constellation straight into the maw of the weapon-ship, the half-operable transporter beaming him off at the last moment before the detonation.

Apparently even the old TOS Era IMPULSE engines were damned powerful

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But more compact. And not a bad idea.

 

Mate, that's not what I'm saying.

Scott says that they are powered by some super-fusion/fission thing that can output umpteen billion gigajoules.

Here we have PROOF that they are fired via a simple electric generator tied to a turbine motor.

As Duranium has been proven unable to withstand even the heat of Lava, much less energetic plasma, the only concievable "fuel" would be expanding gasses of some sort. As there is a VERY REAL physical limit to what can be done (tensile strength, blade sheer, etc) as well as a limit to power generation based on size, amount of fuel, etc, I think we can safely say a TurboLaser is NOT the end-all-be-all that Scott thinks they are.

 

At 340-odd meters long and 700,000 metric tonnes, the ship could ruin a person's entire day even with a comparatively-gentle nudge. For instance, a small car might weigh in at 750 kilograms, and if it's travelling at 100 kilometers per hour (about 60 miles per hour) it will have a kinetic energy of almost 300 kilojoules. Voyager achieves this same KE at less than 0.03 meters per second. At 100 km/h, the 700,000 tonnes of Voyager . . . quite a bit heavier than the car . . . result in a KE of just over 27 trillion joules. That's 27 terajoules, or almost 6.5 kilotons.

Now, consider Voyager at not-even-relativistic speeds. For instance, Voyager at just 10 kilometers per second . . . Mach 30 at sea level, or 0.00003334c . . . is going to have a kinetic energy of 35,000 terajoules, or almost 8.4 megatons. At one-tenth lightspeed, we're looking at 75,000 gigatons. At one-half lightspeed, we're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000,000 gigatons . . . about 8E24 joules, or eight quadrillion terajoules.

At faster speeds, relativistic effects come into play in earnest. At .9c, for instance, we're looking at over 8E25J . . . almost 20,000,000 gigatons, instead of the 'mere' 6,000,000 gigatons non-relativistic calculations might indicate.

Obviously, then, a ship moving sufficiently fast can rearrange a hellacious amount of real estate. At .5c, a starship of Voyager size augering straight into an Earth-like planet could blast a hole over 100 miles wide, laying waste to civilization within a 2500 mile radius.


Hmm.. Scott... you know... given this kind of energy output, I think the Feds would just crash a few computer-driven Intrepids into your fleet

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And expanding gases produce (currently) in the megawatts in gas turbines for everyday commercial applications. A specialised military weapons application using sci-fi materials could easily increase that output by orders of magnitude, and maybe even doesn't need to if it's charging capacitors.

 

It couldn't be on an order of magnitude- finite fuel, finite space, finite room for expansion.

Turbines work via distrobution of force over area- the larger area, the less force due to expansion. However, the more area the larger turbine you can use. So it becomes a balancing act. However, there is ALSO the limit of tensile strength of the blades. As Duranium's tensile strength is not known (but can be approximated) there is a finite limit to the size and turning speed of the turbine.

And again, if they charge a capacitor- simply discharge a powerful EMP to short out the whole shebang

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Considering we've gone orders of magnitude in output since the introduction of the first gas turbine with a less than order of magnitude (overall) increase in size I'd say you're reaching here...

 

I'm not saying there can't be some increase, but to generate the kind of power Scott's been babbling on about with the construction materials available? No way.

 

Oh god, so you ignored the other point I had.

Do green wave lasers resemble the weapons used in Star Wars? No.

It's your straw man that i refuted completely.

BTW it is not just dust that makes a Green Wave laser visible in atmosphere.

 

If even Gene referred to it as Trekniobabble it is treknobabble and it was very prevalent, not as Prevalent as TNG, VOY or DS9, but still there.

TNG, VOY and DS9 made treknobabble the answer to almost every situation. I mean at least in TOS it was limited mostly to the problem, but in the other series it was the solution to virtually EVERYTHING.

Actually first season was a great show, if they hadn't been messing up with the continuity of Star Trek. But agree after the first season meh.

 

But proof that the weapons cannot be Plasma based is.....?

Really? Are you really going to take this route? 400 gigawatts is taken directly from "The Survivors" TNG Third Season. It has NEVER been succesfully contested at all. So There is your first lie.

Second lie, the energy needed to heat a mass is a simple equation. Mass*Specific Heat*Temperature change=Energry needed. Of course there is also more energy needed to effect stat changes (solid-liquid-gas-plasma) as well as energy loss due to photon emission and condustion/convection, but even such a simple equation gives us a lower end for the weaponry.

Are you really that ignorant? Damn, I should take up a collection and send you to shool. FIrst of all we know from what we see and what can be calculated by science the absolute bare minimum that the ships are capable of. As for your limestone reference, limestone is a sedimentary rock formed in the bottoms of seas over millions of years from the exoskeletons of mollusks. SO HOW CAN A PLANET BE BASED OFF THA?

Why can't you believe what you see from the movies? We seen in ESB Star Destroyers destroying massive asteroids. Hell the Executor just ploughed through them with her shields with out even a hiccup. The Death Star blew up a shielded planet with terrifying ease. I am using the movies. BTW if I deign to use the books the ICS is allowed as it was given equal footing with the novels.

Okay, here is your probelm you wrote snippets of passages from the show, you did not include the entire context, at all. Like your lasers line, you never explained they were facing a tiny ship from an emerging civilization and that the lasers were kilo or mega watt. You completely left that out as it hurt your case.

I am not on a high horse, I have the high ground, fortification and the big guns. You are sitting in a field 25 miles away and on your donkey with a stick.

 

Oh god, this argument again. First of all a Galaxy class is still considered an extremely powerful ship even after the introduction of the Sovereign. Only you disputes this. Second that technology is only a few years old by the end of Voyager. Are you still basically driving an ICE vehicle like people have for almost a hundred years now? Is the military still using the same basic M-16 from 40 years ago? how old is the M1? Yes there have been incremental upgrades, but nothing revolutionary, nothing 500% as I had very generously given the federation.

Also the ship did destroy the old couples home as assuredly as it did real damage to the Enterprise and injured real people. Uxbridge simply recreated the homestead from memory. he was a being who could manipulate matter and energy at will. If he was capable of mind manipulation the planet would never have been attacked in the first place.

 

The day you can break anything down other than cheap furniture is a momentus day.

Resistant to EMP at best, we have no idea the power of the Nuke in question.

No, immune to the lasers of said race and ship.

Yes, if they have time (eighteen to thirty seconds) to get a full lock, even then they have missed targets moving in a straight line half the time.

Warp powered turns can stress and even severely damage the ship. They can jump to warp quickly provided they take the time to plot the course.

Stated by a individual known for exageration.

Provided that the ST commanders think of this (none ever have), the shields are down, both ships are reasonably still, there is no radiation present, no ion storms, no super dense metals, no EW/ECM/ECCM, no strange material, no sensor masks, and so on.

Hell, every SW ship is combat capable if you are using this logic.

Yet, can be taken out by nearly any natural phenomena from small asteroids. to lightning strikes to ion storms,.... Not to mention a Shuttle has NEVER beaten anything larger than itself.

And this differs form SW how exactly?

Actually, 12 billion gigawatts per second is impressive, and you are right nuclear fusion may not be able to match this, but fusion means joining. a M/AM engine is a Fusion engine by defination

And you're saying noting in Star Wars does? Yeah, I think you missed your medication.

The Death Star and Death Star 2 fire weapons that exceed any shielding we have seen in SW or ST. The destruction of Alderaan confirms this. And yes the weapon fires in one direction, but it is a strategic weapon, much like a long range nuclear missile is today.

This preplanning takes mere seconds, much like the course plotting for Warp.

Huh, proof that you haven't got a clue to what you are talking about,. I said they have a KINETIC ASPECT. Only natural when a coherent mass of particles hits you at C. They are foremost an energyu weapon but there is a kinetic effect as well. So quit being intentionally stupid.

Your own?

Provided you recognize what you are looking for, or that they aren;t just another term for mitochondria

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First of all by your reasoning they should have done this to V'ger, the Borg, the Dominion and so on, but they didn't. However to refute you I will handle these.

A) How? You can't guarantee insertion to the target by conventional means. You can't start a espionage operation as you have no cultureal intermingling. You have no assets inside the SW at all. It's the same reason the SW side would not be able to use a espionage network against the federation or klingons
B) SubSpace weaonry is used by ONE race and they gave up their weaponry and space craft to live on the planet again. Even if it were somehow used, it is atracted to WARP CORES, something SW does not have.
C) Trillithiyum and Tricobalt devices are simply explosives and if they were so powerful why weren't they used against other threats?
D) I assume you mean Multikinetic mines, which everyone with a working forebrain recognized was not an explosive, but rather a nanite spreading device.

Actually they were at least six planetary widths from Alderaan when the DS destroyed Alderaan. Besides how do you use any of these devices when you have a five second window.

Oh god. Are you dumb. Planetary bombardment would have included proton torpedoes, concussion missles and so on. They said "...strong enough to deflect any bombardment." Meaning for that area you could drop asteroids all day and not strain the shield.

Really, and how so?

Okay, first of all the shield protected a PORTION of Hoth. They didn;t have enough field generators to cover the whole planet, like Alderaan and COrusacant mong others has.

Are you shitting me? Oh you must be. It takes HOURS for even the fastest starships to react to a planetary SOS. The ISD would have dropped the the troopers and their prefab military base and placed in orbit several small defense sattelites and possibly a planetary fighter garrison. As well as a

Okay, so you are willing to surround your planet with cloaked mines, thus cutting off your own ships. Then you find out when the ISD arrive that they can detect the cloaks, by their grvity signatures. beaing the evil snots they are they lock a tractor beam on a few and then realse it breaking the mines orbit and luaghhing their asses off as the mines fall into your planet. Oh and A cloaking field is a shield (low intensity one but still a shield) and shielded objects tend to react with partialce and ray shielding.

Disprupters would not even be able to get through the shields any better than Phasers.

Are you kidding again. A Plasma torpedo is about 12 photon torpedoes in strength. If we go strictly by SI that is 300 tons of TNT. as Iso is 10^0

 

Ah I see you have been ripping off Dark Star?

1. Actually the Neutronium found in that moon was mixed with the iomite and zersium and all the other making of Dura Armor in the proper proportions. the find was so important that one factions entire ship building operation was moved to that moon. The CTD goes on to speculate that the find was from ancient crash sight.
2. So, it doesn't seem any different than how ST treats it.
3. Again no diffent than ST treats it
4. Forgot to mention the woman in question had muscular enhancement, also that a glow torch is no different than a Torche Lamp today a hollow tube of light sheet steel.

As it is the whole attack is a strawman. Dura Steel is amanin structural element much like steel is today. There is premium steel and lesser varieties. Hell for example a Chevy Citation is constructed of Steel and so is a M1 Tank, but would you conclude that becuase a Citation suffer horredous damage striking a tree at 60mph that a M1 would suffer similiar damage?

 

Do you know why there was a mining facility on that planet? Becuase that Lava you saw was not molten rock but molten metals. Besides show me a Federation device that survived molten lava without it's shields. Hell Enterprise D was almost destroyed by flying in an atmosphere.

 

Well, obviously they did it. We can see in ESB that they did it. So obviously you are wrong. Suck it up.

 

Aren't the Imperial weapons green?