Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

?

Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    166
    Actually any weapon used against the Borg is Quite effective if the Borg are not able to analyze it or it's purely Kinetic. If the borg showed up on earth today they'd be slaughtered by anybody with a handgun.

    As for crazy leaving the thread, I'm sorry but as long as you are here Kittamaru crazy is never gone. Nor is irrationality and ignorance.

    In a war between Star Wars and Star trek you have to look at the variables that apply. We have assumed all mortal races on each side ally. We assume each method of FTL is viable. We assume species like the Borg and Vong do not prey on their allies.

    For resources: Star Wars has a decided advantage. There are more sentient beings on Coruscant than there are in the Federation. Just feeding, clothing and providing basic amenities for this being far outstrips any manufacturing ability possessed in the Milky Way.

    Population: See above.

    Technology: While Star Wars does not have food replicators they do seem to have construction replicators. Star Wars doesn't have transporters, but they do have a communication system that spans the galaxy instantly with no delay. Star Wars does not have ships that are fully autonomous, but they do have sentietn servitor droid by the trillions.

    Firepower: Star Wars has a decided advantage. never in anything viewed has Star trek even came close to the firepowers seen on the screen of Star Wars. You can argue about officer statements all you want, but even today military people often exaggerate, so dialogue means nothing.

    Shielding: Both generes are impressive shielded for their respective battle fields. Still this puts Star Wars way ahead.

    Ground Forces: Star Wars has a clear advantage as seen by Empire Strikes back and Attack of the Clones. Failures of Stormtroopers to hit main characters are similiar to the same effect suffered by Star trek bad guys unable to hit ST main characters.
     
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have any proof that they are fully incapable of adapting to purely kinetic weapons, considering we very, very rarely see kinetic weapons used at all, much less against the borg...

    I'll be honest, the insults are entirely unnecessary, but somehow, not unexpected.

    Easily false, as in Trek they can replicate most materials. Additionally, there are races in Trek that literally grow their ships (8472 for example), and still others that have untold bounties of ships (8472, Borg, Husnock) and then others with totally unquantified power (Travelers, Douwd) and then the augmented races (Augmented Humans, Dominion, Breen).

    I did, and raised.

    Yes, and those sentient droids seem to have problems hitting powerless, stationary, disabled ships at spitting distance (per Star Wars: The Clone Wars)

    We have seen, excluding the Death Star, high kiloton to low megaton firepower from Star Wars, and that's being generous... yet we have weapons on ships in Star Trek (such as the Defiant) capable of removing all life from a planet in approximately five minutes (and the characters saying this were willing to stake their lives on that, so I doubt they were exaggerating much)... heck, in the TOS days, they were unable to use ship based weapons to breach planetary shields, not because they weren't powerful enough, but because doing so would vaporize the atmosphere of the planet, boiling it away in an instant... per their Chief Engineer... and that's a ship that's only worthy of being a museum piece by TNG standards...

    How do you figure...?

    Numerically Yes... but why would Trek be fighting a ground based fight when they can stun or kill entire enemy forces from orbit? And also, we've never really seen Star Trek's "marines" (save for the Dominion/Breen) - remember, away teams consisting of bridge officers aren't exactly "soldiers"...
     
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  5. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    166
    Oh I'm sorry, i thought you were smart enough to realize melle weaponry IS kinetic weaponry. i apologize for my gross overestimation of your knowledge of physical sciences.



    Well you were insulting a former debater. You don't get a free pass just becuase he dropped out of the debate. Especially since you could not disprove any of his equations.


    Actually if they could replicate most material there would be no need for Dueterium mining, or any other sort of mining. Replicators have shown ability to replicate foodstuffs, clothing and simple metals and chemical. Nothing on the scale of starship or even building construction.

    8472 are from another Universe and likely not even to interfere with the war as if the Borg are destroyed their "Liquid space" is safe from invasion. Sure a small number think the Federation has some promise, but they aren't going to risk conflict with a foe who can destroy worlds.

    The Borg do have a bounty of ships, but with Billions of borg we are talking only millions of ships, a small percentage of which would be tactical cubes. I would also note that the Borg must assimilaite other races to grow in number. Something that war just doesn't help with.

    Travelers, Organians, Douwd and Q are extremely unlikely to get involved at all. None of them interfered with the Dominion war. Why would a war between other mortal races interest them. I will point out that Star Wars is also home to reality bending species that also do not concern themselves with war. If one side's "godlings" enter the fray so will the other side's

    As for the Breen, they only briefly had an advantage over the Federation, and once that was countered they were just as vulnerable to Federation weaponry as any other race.

    And Humans are not the only race in Star Wars. Wookies far outstrip even Vulcan in toughness and strength and match them for lifespans. Duros are natural navigators and pilots. Rodians as a race have amazing reflexes and war like tendencies that match Klingons. Mandalorians warriors are feared throughtout the galaxy and are often ranked with Jedi Knights for their combat skills. There are a plethora of telepathic and empathic races in Star Wars. hell there is even a race with a Hivemind ability, the more of them around the smarter they are. not to mention cybernetic limbs and augmentations for many races.

    Are you Kidding? The Federation, a major player has less population that Coruscant. You tried matching the whole Galaxy and another universe vs one planet and came out just a bit ahead. What happens when we add the thousand of other systems, many of which have multiple inhabited worlds, colonies, and mining installations?


    Actually trade Federation Droid armies are not even remotely sentient. They are Semi Smart systems controlled by a larger single computer. I would also note that they have the same hit percentage as the best Starships in the Star Trek universe.


    Okay, so in your mind ships firing on other ships must have a low power setting becuase they don't seem to be doing the same types of damage. You ignore the fact that the defending vessel would have shields and armor capable of shrugging off said weapons fire for some period of time.

    If we used your reasoning Photon torpedoes would be better replaced by 120mm HEDP Mortar shell for all the visuals show us.



    Canon numbers plus understanding of the differences of battle times. In Star trek a shield is knocked down in combat within minutes with just ship on ship dueling. In Star Wars ships on ship can take ten or more minutes of firing, less if muliple ships close to point blank and gang up.


    Actually we saw StarFleet marines in DS9 Dominion war several times. They seem to wear the same lycra and carry the same Phaser Rifles as Secuirity officers.

    As for stunning form orbit? Do you plan to fire your Phasers on ground forces when that ISD is blowing apart your shields with it 12.5 gigaton Turbolasers? Not to mention phasers on stun can't even penetrate light plastic packing crates. Stormtrooper armor should protect completely. Not to mention armored vehicles.


    (The Acalamator Turrets mount 8 Heavy Turbolasers and do a combined 200 Gigatons. o an individual cannon does 12.5 gigiatons and an ISD Packs 60 of them.)


    Really this is not a discussion of which genre is better. Both are the the top dogs of Sci-Fi and share the throne equally. If it wasn't for TOS there would be no Star Wars if there was no Star Wars there would have been no TNG and beyond. They are forever linked, like Batman and Superman or Captain America and Thor. Each is great, but if it came down to an all out war, Star Wars wins, it's just the brutal truth. Of course if fanboys from each side could set aside their differences they could combine to be and even greater force.
     
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sorry, I thought you were mature enough to enter into a debate without petty insults - I see I was mistaken.

    Do check your dates (not to mention facts) before you start making foolish claims, especially considering said numbers were disproven time and again.


    Mhm, right... that's why in Star Trek: Voyager, they built the Delta Flyer, the most advanced shuttlecraft ever, using materials they could replicate or scavenge?

    Changing the rules already? You DID say all mortal races from both sides... but then again, Star Wars never could win in a fair fight *shrugs*


    Actually, war would help them greatly, as it gives them an abundance of technology and bodies to assimilate...

    Again, you are attempting to wiggle out of a losing proposition by changing the rules... you said, and I quote:

    So, which is it, hm? I have no problem with you changing the rules, but expect it to be applied evenly...

     
  8. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    166
    My insult was hardly petty. If you cannot tell that almost every melee melee weapon is a kinetic weapon then you have a serious problem.


    My assertation stands. You could not disprove his equations. You only attacked him on minor sticking points that he admitted were errors and none of which related to his equations.

    Scavenge being the key word. They could replicate a fair bit of minor parts, but the hull and other parts had to be assembled through salvage. Admittedly this is a single shuttle craft, but using it as an example is not a good estimation of building techniques.


    Well, honestly I did say both mortal races on both sides, however things like Species 8472 are from another universe. That is like bringing a third side into the conflict. It would be analgous to summoning demons or angels into a conflict. Species 8472 has no presence worth noting in the Milky Way unlike every other race. Despite the fact even if they entered combat they would quickly flee after their third ship died thanks to the massive firepower superiority of the Star Wars side.

    I agree with the bodies, provided they can get close enough to them or even survive the superior weaponry of the Star Wars side. As for the technology, they would have a clue how to assimiliate it. They don;t have the knowledge of advancd power systems needed to even power Turbolaser or SW level shields. And given SW sides tendency to agressively scuttle ships in face of capture the borg that did make aboard a SW vessel would be toast.


    Are Organians, Douwd, or Q mortal? No? Am I assuming Borg prey on the federation> No. Am I assuming all races with a presence in the galaxy take the same side? yes. You're the one trying to twist the rules.

    Learn to comprehend. After the Breens weapons were understood they were slaughtered just as easily as Dominion sjhips. hey were vulnerable to the same level of weaponry as others.


    Okay. The reapon i put Wookies and Vulcan on same level is becuase Wookies are stronger, smarter, and tougher than Gorns, Klingons or Humans. Chewbacca may have been drivne by emotion and unable to speak Basic, but he was able to repair and modify a Hyperdrive that was State of the Art and years ahead of any other Hyperdrive in the Galaxy. The original designer of the Falcon's .5 Hyperdrive was the brightest mind in Star Wars. He put equipment that should have only been able to fit ina 300 meter vessel in a 25 meter vessel and made it work. Chewie helped upgrade the ship with faster engines, Quad lasers and better shields and still maintain equipment that would have the vulcan Science academy scratching their heads fro a century before they figured out what it did let alone try to do the math. and Chewie was to Vulcan's what spock was...exceptional but hardly a mind of legendary proportions.

    As for AI is startfleet, the two exceptioanl AI's in starfleet are unique and the second was accident obviously inspired by both Mike (Moon is a Harsh Mistress) and R2-D2 (Name me another droid that would back talk humans as much as he did)

    As for telepaths there are races in Star Wars who make Beta Zeds look weak. Of course those races are usually not humanoid. But as for jedi most of them use the Force to replicate what the weakest of tlepaths can do. Still Telepaths would not find such a disciplined mind easy to even enter let alone manipulate.


    Same could be said about Star Wars, we only saw a minscule tiny itty bitty fraction. and i am sure the percentages of slavery and poverty are comparable in both galaxies.

    Your hand has that many digits? Are you human?

    As i said they were Semi Intelligent and their actions coordinated in a main computer. Obviously speach and some minor personality traits are designed in to help them work with humanoids or smarter droids.


    Actually if the shields or materials need that much power to affect very little pyrotechnics would be seen. As for you barely scorched the ground assertion, you forget we are at bad angle and in all likelihood the bolt drilled into the ground for many many meters instead of exploding on the surface.

    And again, it was obvous the craft in question was unshielded because we saw no shield interaction, and the hit cuased either electrical failure or engine failure.


    Okay so you have a gigawatt phaser, how does that special effect of the nadian particles effect a sheld that has no particles? Plus we know phasers have reduced effectiveness against heavier metals.



    Star trek has no room to talk about slow moving collisions after Nemesis. Especialy since a craft that took several second to move 7000 meters took out the shields of a mauch larger and mostly undmaged craft in one go. At least the asteroids in the asteroid field in ESb were moving in excess of 2km a second while the star destroyer was moving in opposite direction same speed. Not to mention it is canon fact that Star Destroyer is later seen chasing the Millenium Flacon fully intact not a day later.

    That phaser on Wide beam would penetrate Storm trooper armor if a concentrated bolt won't penetrate a light packing crate.


    How do you debunk canon number that George lucas approved? Did you by Star Wars from him?
     
  9. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    I dont' have the time, nor the energy, at the moment to go through and refute each and every point, so I'll just pick on the most obvious one:

    The whole argument with the "light packing crate" is laughable... especially since we see Stormtrooper blasters failing to so much as scorch trees (battle of Endor) and their armor being overcome with arrows and rocks... ROCKS for gods sake! (again, Battle of Endor).

    Also, there is the scene in the detention hall, where Leia is hit by a blaster bolt, and all it does is singe her shirt... that's pretty weaksauce if you ask me.

    Now, we can continue to debate utilizing every outlier and random bit of data that, due to the obvious limits of special FX and human cognition cannot be made realistic to the show (like, for example, how Phaser beams actually move at relativistic speeds, much like blasters, yet we can WATCH them progress towards their target... would be a damned boring show if we couldn't), or we can agree to take everything with a pinch of salt and stick with true facts... however, if you insist on utilizing Wong and Co's numbers, do yourself a favor - look into the math used and run the facts yourself. You will quickly find that he is one professor who's only degree is in BS...
     
  10. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    166
    We see time and time again Phaser Blasts being blocked by packing crates. The same type of packing crates that look, fall and bounce not unlike cheap number two plastic containers. Even if they were some sort of light metal alloy, the firepower numbers brandied about by Trekkies should blow holes through that metal, if not the first time, then at least the fourth or fifth. I will point out that these crates at first blush seem less sturdy than Storm Trooper armor.

    Yes, we have seen arrows pierce some vulnerable sections of StormTrooper armor, but we saw hundred more fail toeven scratch the surface.This coincides neatly with real life, even wooden arrows from shortbows could pierce the weak points in the best Plate armor. hell there is reports of a Shortbow that fired and arrow through a Plate Leg greave, through the man's leg, out the other side of the leg greave, through the barding and into the horse the Knight was riding? That is a LOT of penetration.

    As for ther rocks, even in armor if somebody keeps dropping twenty pound rocks on you, eventually you're gonna lose conciousness or die. Of course you'll live longer in StormTrooper armor than you would in Lycra pajamas

    As for the blaster bolt, it was a glancing shot, and leia was wearing layers of ablative armor, which existis in Star Wars and is generally like cloth. I would also point out Liea is a powerful Force Sensitive, they have been known to subconciously absorb energy attacks.

    What you are doing is taking absolute worse case scenarios that happened very, very infrequently. it's a low tactic.

    I am basing my observations on things shown time and time again in Star Trek. If i wanted to go with the weakest showing, I could easily do that, but I am going by what is shown to be the average.
     
  11. cadas Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    8
    on in star trek there are industrial replicators that were used to build a ship in captians kirks time (i have the book where scotty build a ship with them it just took 4 warp cores to be able to replicate the parts they needed ill find the book once im done moving) and also in star wars (if you read the books) there is a door made of a tree soo tough that it took 5 blasters working 15 mins to break through the door. now im not saying the trees on endor are of the same type that stopped the at-st shots but still think of all that heat aswell basicly you can flash cook someone just by it coming within about 10-12 inches (cooked ewoks anyone?) but also ill have to look but in starwars theres a bomb called the system destroyer now ill look for it before i say its something thats really in star wars . well theres my 1 of 2 cents
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    And yet, time and time again, we see HAND phasers VAPORIZING whole people. Gone, no residue, just gone. We also know that phasers have some sort of built in targeting (evidenced by the off-canter shots we've seen), so it's safe to assume that the phasers may simply not output their full power unless the target is hit - this makes far more sense than assuming that the packing crates are made of some magic material that can withstand blasts of energy capable of simply erasing a human being from existance... not to mention a weapon we have seen remove tonnes of rock at once with ease...

    Comparing stormtrooper armor to a knights plate mail is... well, silly. I mean, these are supposed to be environmentally-sealed suits of armor used by the elite imperial forces... yet in one scene, we see the helmet all but fall off because the guy bonked his head on the door as it went up. *shrugs* Even taking the crazy outliers out of this, we have multiple indications that a blaster suffers the exact same issues as a phaser - the inability to penetrate common everyday materials such as dirt, wood, or even cloth.

    Yes, but there were Ewoks smashing into their armor with stone clubs... even modern-day kevlar can withstand that...


    1) At that point in the movie, I doubt Leia even knew what the force really was, much less that she was sensitive to it. Additionally, I have heard this "ablative cloth armor" theory a dozen times and never seen a shred of evidence for it... if they really had this, why do we NEVER see it elsewhere in the movies, much less hear it mentioned?

    I'm doing it to prove a point - that is the exact same tactic Wong uses in his calculations for Star Trek - meanwhile, he takes the absolute highest-end he can find for Star Wars... it's downright unconscionable...


    Except you can't really take what you see at face value - a great example of this - the ship-based weapons in both Star Trek and Star Wars - how fast do you think those energy beams actually move? In reality, they move at high-fractions of c... however, visual FX (and human sight) dictates that they HAVE to move slower in order for us to be able to even see them... likewise, all those claims by Wong and Co that "we can't trust what the characters say" based on them being "fallible human beings" who say things that "don't coincide with the visuals" is bunk... people such as Chief Engineers and Captains don't grossly over exaggerate their ships capabilities when their lives are on the line...


    I hope my poitn in all this is clear - you can't just blindly follow what people like Wong claim... if his obvious bias wasn't reason enough, the fact that some of his calculations put simple fighters at levels capable of leveling planets is just laughable. Now, I'm not saying Star Trek would curbstomp Star wars - quite the opposite, in fact. Even though Trek has the advantage in quality of ships, tactics, and technology, Wars has a MASSIVE numerical advantage and a blind loyalty to their leadership that would be very difficult to overcome. Overall, though, I'm confident that the races of Trek would find unconventional means to turn the tide in their favor (such things as nano-warfare, subspace weapons, etc).
     
  13. Nexarc Troper In Training Registered Senior Member

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    139
    Wow, this thing is still going? Well, at least the major crazy died down. Way too lazy to reply to every single point too so I'll just throw in my two cents.

    Please count the number of drones taken down by a kinetic weapon per battle (not the total number), compare that to the number of drones taken down by phaser blasts per battle before adapting (again not the total). At first glance it seems like Borg are vulnerable, and that may be true, but when you look at the numbers, the largest group taken down by 'bullets'' in a single encounter is two. Considering it also takes a couple shots for the borg to adapt to Phasers, there is still the possibility of adaptation. And of course close hand to hand combat is the worst tactic against the Borg as it is the hightest chance of assimilation.

    Resource and Population-wise, SW advantage, but I agree with Kitt. The chances of the Empire fully massing its resources and using it wisely is less than what most people would think. Yes communication is quite expansive and quick. Considering the timeframe that it was supposedly built, its scale is not surprising, but signal quality compared to standard ST subspace comms (which actually is holographically based as well), is not. SW will win mostly from these points, and are possibly the only *logical* reasons why ST would lose.

    In ST, however, their level energy control is very impressive. Consider how much work it takes for a simple transporter and by extension, the replicator. It has to consider an object's structure to at least the sub-molecular level, its position in space and than converts it to energy for transport, reconverts it back into physical mass at its destination and reassembles it. Various tricorders and medical instruments are non intrusive using various forms of energy to ''see'' into an object and/or repair most internal problems. Even the agony-booth of the mirror verse is based on directing energy to individual clusters of nerve cells. Compare that to physically manipulating objects that most denizens of the GFFA require (Force-users withstanding) like whenever a medical droid shows up. The GFFA form of ''efficiency'' is to build something larger to get more power. A milky way ship just needs to find an alternative way to accomplish the same result. Note how they replaced plasma guns (turbo-lasers by SW terms) and generic lasers with the more efficient but powerful phaser during the late ENT - early TOS era.

    Shielding and FTL in ST is incredibly robust despite what extremists say. Standard shielding is strong enough to fly into the coronas of stars and still escape at warp. While Hyperdrives can't even operate in a gravity well, the only influence on a warp-capable vessel is just a course change depending on the intensity of the field. Overpowering shields tend to be a moot point for Starfleet vessels aand would take too long. Look at the battle against the Scimitar in Nemesis. The romulans barely stood a couple minutes in battle, yet the Ent-E was still going strong, even having a large piece of debris half the size of the saucer just bounce off their shielding with just a slight powersurge. If a portion of the shields get weak, the ship then rotates to present a stronger area of its shield. Just watch the greatest threats to the Feds such as the Borg, Dominion, etc. Enemies prefer instead to try and disrupt of outright bypass Fed shielding. As for being knocked down in minutes by strength, that usually is because most species operate similar shielding so thus already know the various weaknesses of them and focus their energy into exploiting that. It is doubtful that a SW ship can even hurt a ST vessel of similar strength just based on weaponary and shielding alone. Yes, and ISD is bigger and stronger, but relative to size, an ST vessel is potentially the most overpowered thing ever built by *mortal* hands baring the time-traveling / god-descendant races of other franchises.

    So major SW parties can and would severly hurt Trek if they are wise enough to capitalize on their advantages, but it is not going to be the uber-pwning genocide that people like to think. It going to be a horribly bloody affair even worse than anything the Rebels could dish out just by using what Warsies call "inferior" technology.
     
  14. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

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    166
    Yes we see hand phasers eliminating people, not evaporating them as there is no vapor but disintegrating them. Of course If the person is wearing anything heavier than clothing then you don't see that. Hell you rarely see the disintegration after Wrath of Khan. Anything that isn't flesh phasers rarely if ever leave more than scorch mark unless you use a special setting. Even then you spend almost 5 seconds setting the the damn thing up.


    Actually we never see a blaster impeded by anything. It's burned holes in walls, burned through ablative armor, blasted large sections of concret out of wall, heavily damage trees...The only time we see a Blaster fail to do any damage to it's direct target was the Garbage Compacter, which we all can admit would be heavily over engineered for strong metal alloys.

    As for Storm Trooper armo0r it is Environmentally sealable. Meaning you can do it, not that it is always done.


    Go ask a cop if a Kevlar vest would protect his rib from a baseball bat? The ask him if it would protect him from a hammer or mace. Those stone clubs were not unlike the predecessors to Maces and Hammers, weapons used to BATTER people to death in their armor.


    First of all most Force use by the untrained is spontaneous and reactionary. Anakin being a prime example. As so for ablative armor it is mentioned in a few of the books. Unlike Star Trek, the Star Wars saga does not rely of technobabble ofr fancy explanations it's pure story telling.

    So you're using low end Star Wars figures, modifying what you see to get the lowest figure, but you take only the highest end Star trek figures ignoring visual evidence if it conflicts with dialogue? At least Mike Wong takes median figures for both and supports his figures by drawing on pratical Physics knowledge.



    Actually if you are going to hold one standard do it for both genres. You claim that Star trek must be moving faster than the visuals suggest but are NOT doing the same for Star Wars. Kind of a double standard there.

    As for Captains not exaggerating I give you the Corbonite Maneuver.


    You're problem is you believe that everyone is blindly following. I'm not, I corrected some of Wong's minor errors (the Aclamators Turbolaser Batteries lay down 200 Gigatons ber eight cannon turret, not per cannon). I have come to my own conclusions supported by the cannon of both series. As for the Fighter claims you make, they just aren;t there. You must be misreading what he has given. Yes he mentions TIE Bombers helping in a DBZ, but not as the soul participant.

    As for your thoughts on unconventional warfafe, Star Wars has all of them too. The have nano-warfafe of both technologically and biological methods, they are MASTERS of subspace manipulation (Hell they could easily just jump to Hyperspace to escape a tear), they have teletpathic races that dwarf the potential of even beta-zed's (before there was even the first beta-zed no less), they have strategic speed advantage and superweapons so terrible that they boggle the mind.

    The Death Star alone could wipe out the Star Trek galaxy, sure it would take years, but it could do it. Add in the galaxy gun, World Devastators, Eclipse class Star Destroyers, the Sun Crusher, The Tarken, Centerpoint Station, and Vong Worldships and we're talking ugly times for the Star trek galaxy.
     
  15. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

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    We only ever see two drones taken down by gunfire becuase we only ever SEE gunfire once, but every single time someone melee's a drone the damn thing dies. Their like zombies one on one they suck swamp water hand to hand. The Borg have been melee'd since their first appearance and have NEVER adpated. This denotes an extreme lack of ability to adapt to kinetic weapons.

    Actually signal quality is great, making open air soft holograms is not as easy as it sounds. And You have to admit a near instantaneous transmission time over 120,000 light years is a HUGE advantages, when sometimes it can take WEEKS for Subspace messages to reach some parts of the Federation.

    As for trying to claim the Star Wars side could not bring all to bear, yeah i agree, but star trek would only be able to bring the same percentage.

    Okay, this is where you're confusing style with power. Star Trek abandoned their Plasma guns for Phasers becuase for similair power the phasers could do more. Star Wars refined their Turbolaser and Laser technologies to use ever increasing amounts of power. Now Phasers are pretty powerful, but the put put of a Heavy Turbolaser (12.5 gigatons in1/15th of a second) is many hundreds of times te entire Warp core output of the Enterprise D. An ISD carries 60 Regular Turbolasers which are rounghly 70% as powerful

    We're not talking about two factions of humanity that branched off a few hundred years ago. We're talking that Star Wars upgraded to Hyperdrive 25,000 years ago from another FTL. The beings in Star Wars have been travelling the stars before the Vulcan's developed the ability to walk upright.

    Not to mention timeline wise, A New Hope was nearly 7 billion years ago. Do you wanna imagine how far they've come since then.
     
  16. Nexarc Troper In Training Registered Senior Member

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    139
    And yet the Federation has encountered the ST equivalents of most of the things on your list and have the ability, but not the will, to replicate their effects. Speed advantage also is negligible when we factor in the speed capabilities of various transwarp technologies that are just within reach of Starfleet's abilities. It may take a bit of time to get them to full production specs, but things like slipstream are within standard SW hyperspace ranges. This is of course not factoring the limitations of each individual item from both franchises and the using the general assumption that SW hyperspace and ST hyperspace are one in the same.
     
  17. Nexarc Troper In Training Registered Senior Member

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    139
    As you state, they refine a gun to use more power, and phasers get more using the same energy. The point I was making is that for SW, a more powerful gun tends to grow bigger and build a bigger boat is the answer, and that in ST, a gun of the similar size that can do a lot for the same price is the choice. ST ship sizes do grow, but very slowly but that is also because it need to host more equipment that has been developed during the interim. Just looking at the SW timeline in the expanded verse, pretty much all of their technology has been there since the beginning, yet it barely advances overtime and only through slight modifications of existing tech over the thousands of years that you had noted..

    On the Milky way time scale, the Federation is only 300 years old yet is now considered one of the most advanced groups in the Galaxy. It is still developing technologies that are starting to surpass the 'alien' equivalents that have been around for eons. It is effectively doing every thing that the GFFA has 'done' in an insanely small fraction of the time.

    however, the definition of "a long time ago" has not been set in stone for as far as I am aware. Hell some EU references put it as recent as the 1900's. 400 years is almost no major advancement whatsoever by the EU rates.
     
  18. universaldistress Extravagantly Introverted ... Valued Senior Member

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    Is anyone talking about the speeds at which space vessels from each respective galaxy/universe can travel at? Surely mobility is a defining factor? Also intelligence on where the enemy is across massive distances? If say the main galaxy from star wars collided with the main galaxy of star trek which civilisation would be able to assess and mount concerted attacks quickest, and with most effectiveness. I am sure any such battle would end in a stale mate.
     
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    Well, Star Trek has the advantage in immediate mobility - ships can enter and leave warp in mere seconds, without needing to plot any courses. They can also turn, albeit slowly, while at warp. They can also enter and exit warp within gravity wells. Oh, an you can fight at warp.

    HOWEVER

    HyperSpace in Star Wars is much, much quicker than warp. However, it has the disadvantages of being straightline only, unable to be used inside of a gravity well, and leaving you virtually blind and deaf to your surroundings. You are also, IIRC< unable to fire weapons in hyperspace.

    Now, Star Trek does have Quantum Slipstream and Transwarp tech which, in a confrontation that is universe vs universe, would likely be shared among all the races... and we've seen that Transwarp and Quantum Slipstream allows you to travel across huge expanses of space in mere moments... though they have their own disadvantages.
     
  20. Vader999 Registered Member

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    The difference is the Empire has 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers armed with Neutronium laced Durasteel, and 66 200 gigaton heavy guns each firing at two to four shots per second. The reason they didn't use these guns to vaporize the Falcon is due to the fact that, aside from technical constraints, the first movie showed Turbolasers can't hit targets less than 2 meters wide, and the added factor that Rebel fighters are essentially high speed, heavy fighters made with Imperial technology. But the Enterprise would make for an awfully big target, and considering how its several hundred meters long and wide. And each ISD, even when described by the A New Hope novel, has a power core emitting enough energy similar to a star. Remember when in Dragonball Z, they needed the power of an entire planet to kill Majin Buu? An ISD expends just as much energy, even more, perhaps, just to get from one end of the galaxy to the other. It uses more energy than a planet will ever emit just to make a pit stop at Nar Shadaa to pick up Twi'lek whores for the crew. And even four minutes of sustained orbital bombardment is enough to turn a planet into a charred husk; all the Death Star was to be was to break through any shields the enemy might have. Aldeeran would have a shield because it's a core world in the empire, especially to have a senate seat and to have its senator be a recurring character in the Prequels. In a George Lucas-designed video game made to tie in the prequels with the Original trilogy, Senator Organa even outright states that he will fund the Rebellion in the opening for the final level of The Force Unleashed.

    And don't give me the shit that "the EU ISN'T CANON!" George Lucas gets paid every time someone buys an EU product. And the tech manuals are G canon, because they don't include outside stories; the infamous Incredible Cross Sections that make Trekkies shit their pants WAS MADE AT THE SET OF ATTACK OF THE CLONES. CURTIS SAXTON EVEN TRAVELED TO SKYWALKER RANCH TO DOUBLE CHECK THE BOOK WITH GEORGE LUCAS' CREW, AND THEY GREENLIGHTED EVERY SINGLE STAT. So any observations that say they contradict the movies is taken out of context. Just as Trekkies overblow the Federation's power out of context. If the Dominion was such a bad foe, why didn't they just use the Genesis device on them? Have probes equipped with Genesis torpedoes scour dominion space and explode, turning Dominion worlds into nice gardens to be sold to The Federation Military Junta.

    Then again, when Vader had a dozen ISDs that each had 66 200 gigaton guns that fired twice or four times a second, and a flagship ten times as big as said ISDs with ten times the firepower, orbiting above Hoth, the shield was said to be strong enough to deflect any bombardment. So 66 times 200 gigatons times twelve ISDs plus times ten thanks to the Imperial flagship(times twenty two) times the 2-4 shots per second is still not enough to penetrate a rebel shield, so even the Genesis effect won't work. All it will do is turn Hoth into Eden while the Rebs are still safe in their bunker.
     
  21. Nexarc Troper In Training Registered Senior Member

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    139
    As stated before, the ISC books can contain non-canon stats, so your power level is woefully inaccurate. Strength of a shield is no problem once you obtain the right harmonic frequency, bypassing it altogether.
     
  22. comedian10001 Registered Member

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    Im really not going to read through all 1000+ posts, but ultimately I think the star wars universe would win, simply for the Jedi factor. Luke used the force to make an impossible shot, so I think someone of Yoda's caliber could crush a ship if they chose, but as many have pointed it out this is a comic book war. Super powers(the force) always trump science lol.
     
  23. Nexarc Troper In Training Registered Senior Member

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    I don't think that anyone still active here can remember what has gone on in one of the longest running STvsSW thread ever. However, a concensus seemed to have been reached by the more senior members that in an all-out brawl, SW maybe wins only by sheer numbers but at the cost of an insane number of GFFA casualties. Though in a more realistic setting, the Empire gets its posterior kicked because based on how canon characters actually react, most groups in both galaxies would ally with the UFP.
     
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