Star Wars vs Star Trek

Imperial Sourcebook, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, or The Essential Chronology.

 

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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero

 

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Don't look at me Scott the Book says these types of orbital bombardments were STRICTLY PROHIBITED by Republic forces and Antilles was threatened (whimsically) with a reprimand. The Wookiepedia calls it a BDZ.

Jaina describes it as "Old Timey" in the sense no one had seen this since the days of the empire....sorry...Scott they are definitely describing a BDZ. AGAIN...I can't quote it for you if you like they go into quite a deal about it from her point of view.

As for your assertion htat the Vong weapons were nothing more than Lava canoons, remember they also speak of Plasma streamers on larger ships as well.

Nope. They never say how fast the plasma was fired or as it was commonly called Lava Rock Canon's. None of the books are that specific. My memory is quite clear. I would have remembered anything along those lines.

The hulls were made of hardened living rock. Never once did Republic weapons vaporize any of these vessels...not even their fighters. And on Borelias the ENEMY GROUND FORCES WERE STILL ALIVE if dying from the bombardment.

 

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OH....those.
Those aren't EU.

 

not exactly. they are canon, C-canon, and therefor are usable just like ICS or The Essential Atlas.

 

Yes, but the EU contradicts them and they are lesser canon.
I've just read a few other BDZ's and none of them describe the entire world slagging you guys have been saying. Apparently the Authors didn't get the memo.

You know this is serving as an expose of a sorts.
I had no idea that the EU didn't collaborate these sources at all. I've read about a dozen Star Wars books before the New Jedi Order and none of them showed this Extinction Level Event Firepower that's I've heard so much about and I know for certain that level of firepower NEVER EVER shows up in the New Jedi Order when it was certainly time to use it.

But now after this rework of the SD's asteroid vaporization and the asteroids weren't 40 meters but a very sensible 4 meters wide it ALL MAKES SENSE now. Supposedly invincible Super Star Destroyers taken out by a fighter or the invulnerable shields of the Lusankya withered away by lava rocks. BDZ's that apparently aren't BDZ's...it ALL makes sense to me that Star Wars is on the Star Trek level.

It's flashy explosions with little substance, Ground troops with cracked armor, orbital weapons that can't take out Montana facility in one shot, shields that are shown some times but not others. All these examples tell me one thing. There is no clear firepower superiority of either genre.

 

I read the same one you did. Antilles may have hinted and performing a BDZ but he did not give the order not did he carry through on the procedures.

They quite clearly describe that the incomeing weapons were as fast as the Laser cannons the NR used. It was actually quite a surprise to find that the ships fired rocks. I would also point out that the Grand Alliance had fielded vessels with projectile cannons with near C sppeds as well.

the 'rock' is question was no more a normal rock than the shell of a rock oyster. The vessels were living being that created their own shell that were very energy resistant. Aslo of not even the smallest Coral Skipper had Dovin Basal singlarity shielding device.

Unless you can find me where it is listed as any specific type of rock, you have to use a modicum of common sense.

Also i would note that they only usually talk about Fighter craft engaging and destroying coralskippers. for all we know, a light turboalser may very well vaporize them in one hit.

 

Technically that's true yet it is listed as a BDZ by all sources.

I clearly don't see any proof of that.
And you've contradicted yourself. Those weapons don't move anywhere near light speed.

No animal could produce a shell that could ablate 200 Giga-anything. It' pure conjecture. The BDZ proves that the Vong Life forms can't repel Megawatts of energy but they can somewhat survive it. Essentially the same wattage that flash burns trees and vegetation, and vaporize bodies of water in dozens upon dozens of volley's does harm the Mattoks.

So while the Vong have proven to be have super ablative coral...Coral that fighters had a problem taking out but not for the ISD's guns it is the same sort of armor their ships are constructed of. That is the range of firepower they can take.

Taken from asteroids...
I've read that much. and I think the wiki supports that. Nothing unusual.
That supports the Empire Strikes Back scenes of the ISD being struck by multiple rocks of small sizes and sub combing to them. Very terrestrial nothing that could ever equal the 200 gigatons. This looks completely debunked, Scott.

Again do you have any evidence outside your own conjectural expectations?

 

Saquist, stop, you're going to make TWScott run away again in shame...

Oh, wait, that wouldn't be a bad thing, as he has ZERO EVIDENCE to back up any of his claims...

Saquist, I have to send you a bottle of your choice of drink for the sheer level of wank you just utterly vaporized with those few posts... the EU, as it stands, contradicts the ICS... that is pure awesome.

To anyone who still think's Wong and Saxton's numbers are worth a damn - you're insane.

 

Unless Scott comes up with some sort of surprise evidence...It looks pretty definitive that the ICS are ...well, lies. It's hard to describe it as anything else. An exaggeration of this magnitude and it's been falsified. But the real kicker is that the ICS describes an SD's firepower in Gigatons of TNT. READ the Rebel Dream Book. There is no concussion, no shock wave. It's an AUTOMATIC contradiction to REBEL DREAM. No concussion, no shock waves, NO CRATERS...just burning vegetation and vaporization of lakes and streams.

 

not really Saquist, it isn't a full BDZ. several other evidence support it.
for example the Imperial Sourcebook. like it or not, it is canon and it is evidence. it says, like all the other sources, that a BDZ is intended to whip out EVERYTHING on the surface in a matter of hours. and it isn't done with a huge fleet, but with a fleet of maximum tens of ships. the Empire never sends a massive fleet in any situation, nor dose the Republic. i suggest this: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/BaseDeltaZero.html in which Wong explains the requirements to do a BDZ as described on a barren world.
you will see that either the fleets are monstrously massive, either the ships are monstrously powerful, and that the BDZ from Rebel Dream Book is not a true BDZ. if that's what they intended, they didn't do a grate job.

 

you can also go here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Beam2.html

 

George, here's the thing - you are trying to back up faltering evidence with the same evidence...

Yes, SD.net HELPED WRITE the ICS... didn't you know this? Wong, Saxton, and co are all pretty chummy over there... and are all active anti-trek debaters.

Here's the killer thing though - book series REPEATEDLY refute the ICS numbers, in addition to the movies. For Example - if they could BDZ the way you say, why didn't they do that on Hoth? I know, I know, the tired old "they had a shield" argument... fine, they had a shield. BDZ the area around the shield enough, and you'll kill everything inside the shield via seismic activity, thermal conduction, and generally just shaking the shit out of everything until it falls apart. No need to risk men or machine - just blow the piss out of it.

Yet, they couldn't... that SERIOUSLY puts a damper on the idea that SD's, even DOZENS of them, could begin to slag a planet...

Oh my god... and talk about citation failure...

5"Caamas is now a dead world. Devastated shortly after the Clone Wars by an orbital bombardment ordered by the Emperor, Caamas's vegatation and animal life - including most of the Caamasi people- died in the space of a day." (New Jedi Order Sourcebook, p. 45)

Yes, as "proof" of how a BDZ, according to them, works, they cite THEIR OWN WORKS...

*facepalm*

 

no, its different evidence from other sources.

Wong..what? write the ICS? seriously, that's not even close. he isn't even in SW literature of anything like that, hes a fan. WHF?

bet your ass they did have a shield...and besides that, they wanted them alive. if they didn't, then yes, they COULD have just blow everything up. but they wanted Luke REMEMBER?

i just explained why they didn't, and just for the record, they never had fleets of thousands when it came to a BDZ.NEVER. just go dam look for some sources, instead of taking one that didn't even need a BDZ or for that matter where they had a shield.

oh, wow, so this disproves the BDZ? pathetic really.

i never recall the writers of the ICS, SAXTON OR DAVID WEST REYNOLD use their own work.

so you were so desperate to disprove this quickly that you lied? about the "writer" Wong using his "own work"? wow, just...wow. typical desperate trekkie trying to desperately disprove something even using lies. why am i not surprised?

 

*sighs* Do some bloody research George - Saxton and Wong worked pretty close in a LOT of things, including the ICS and other things...

The fact that you are calling me a liar for trying to educate you on this is just utterly irritating... and the fact that you don't understand WHY what I posted is relevant, and instead simply tried to shrug it off, makes me seriously consider just ignoring you... it's hard to argue with someone who can so amazingly and succinctly miss and/or ignore a point as obvious as what I just stated.

 

well show some proof that he has any connection to Saxton. cuz i DID research, i found no proof that he had anything to do with the ICS.

hmm, lets see:

well, that's not really of any help. the evidence is taken from multiple sources, and none of what you claim is showing up.perhaps you might be explicit.

nope, still no proof of that.

i think i already debunked that.

debunked to.

and no idea what this is supposed to mean, but it pretty much shows nothing but what a BDZ does.

except that even Saxton who write the ICS NEVER use them in TC. in fact, he finished them about two years BEFORE he even wrote them. and they cite OTHER WORKS, OTHERS.

try again.

you have yet to show me or anyone else anything of the thing you said, but with proof. show proof that Saxton worked with Wong in writing the ICS, and show proof about your other claims. cuz, again, Wong had nothing to do with the ICS, and Saxton never used his own sources, they both use someones else' and you have yet to show otherwise. and of course, you might show some proof that the SD can't do a BDZ in small numbers if your at it.

 

wow... okay, fine, let's show you the proof...

In the acknowledgments of both of the ICS books he authored, Dr Saxton thanked Michael Wong, Wayne Poe, and several other prominent members of the Star Wars side of the SWvST debate for their contributions.

Read the god damn book and the proof is actually WRITTEN on it...

I also submit this:

Now, just because there is some stuff that cannot be brought in line with the more realistic SW firepower calcs without the use of "magic", it does not mean ya'll can scream "dial a yield" or "they weren't trying to do x and x" every time we see a lesser effect - we never, ever, see your "BDZ" used the way you describe. The best we get is what can be considered analogous statements about their presumed effects - however, every time we see a planet burned off, it's just that - burned off. We never see flowing rivers of molten rock amid towering islands of durasteel or the like...

As for debunking the part about the shield, I must of missed that - I'd LOVE to read how you debunked it though, because there's nothing wrong with what I stated - slag everything around it, and eventually the people inside will die too. I mean, shit, the shield only protects what's under it...

 

unfortunetly i don't have it, but i'll ask other people who do and i'll see what's the truth. interestingly due, what exactly did Wong "helped" with? do you have any quote in which he is acknowledge with directly participating in the creation of the book? or in which acknowledge as giving ideas? anything? thanking him for what????

aha.well,that doesn't prove anything. what dose it supposed to prove? i have given the proof and it stands. go back a few pages.

yes I CAN. the situations of the stories are the reasons they do X and not Y. and the proof i provided pages back is more than enought to allow me to yell what ever the fuck i want. i proved them.

no, it is not "burned off". every pice of data that explains what a BDZ does is a combination of sources that describe a BDZ. now dozens of sources say that they slag it, and the firepower of the imperial fleet sustains it. end of story, it stands. like it,OR NOT, the firepower of the Imperial fleet and the sources are proof. DEBUNKED.

yeah, people will die..including the ones you want ALIVE! like, LUKE, and LEIA, and SOLO, and THE OTHER REBEL LEADERS ON HOTH. Vader had orders from the Emperor to try and convert Luke to his side. that would be pretty hard if hes DEAD, now wouldn't it?

if you are still wondering what proof i have for the fleet firepower, i'll give them to you...again. and i will give you the sources. ALL OF THEM CANON.

 

Again, you are missing the point... it doesn't matter if they are CANON. The HIGHER CANON and other EQUAL CANON sources state that it cannot be done. Period.

It doesn't matter if you have one hundred million books saying "they can slag a planet with 10 star destroyers in two hours"... they couldn't do it in the movies, they can't do it, period.

As for Luke and co - fine, you capture them when they escape instead of blowing up their ships... pretty simple, no? And so much for not wanting Luke dead, since an AT-AT nearly STEPPED on him.

Now, provide evidence of your BDZ, as you claim it. Provide evidence they can do any of your claims, preferably by showing quotes and/or passages where it has been done.

As for the ICS - I don't know the specifics... but both Curtis Saxton and Mike Wong were LIVID anti-trek debaters that would do and say anything to make Star Trek lose in everything (Wong even went so far as to say Star Trek would lose to Babylon 5 for crying out loud)

 

oh look, i found something:
http://twelve-spoons.net/neal/ICSFactPage.html
and what do you know, a quote:

yet, nothing about what he did.
well, WHAT DID WONG DID IN THE ICS?