Star Wars vs Star Trek

Notice how now he all but refuses to reply... *rolls eyes* in the face of overwhelming proof, TW Scott, in his quest to never admit being wrong, resorts to his most powerful tactic - running and hiding...

*sighs*

 

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you would think that one would understands that is what he means when he does that..

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I haven't figured out exactly what's wrong with Scott even after 3 years.
You'd think he'd grow up...I know I have.
But he hasn't changed.

I guess that's just the different back grounds we come frome displaying themselves.

 

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Yes I to have been studying the SW films as my brothers love the clone wars, and my conclusion is that everything about SW is about numbers nothing else. And yes A whole fleet could easily wipe them out with Quantum or TriCobalt Torpedoes impacting the ships. Boo ya bring on the Borg.

 

A Challenge to the scene of the destroyed bridge...

First and foremost, this is my first post here, so hello everyone. Second I am actually excited to see this scene challenged as I use it as point maker a lot for shield strength benefiting Star Wars. Plus considering how often Star Trek has a tendancy to contradict itself sometimes in the shows, and what people say, its nice to see an actual popularly used shield strength scene challenged.

I myself stared at the screenshots and disbelief, but thought, "why did so many people (Some Star Trek fans I know included) get the insinuation that the bridge was still there?"

So I have a few challenges to the arguments that the bridge is destroyed scene.

First is the interpretation of the script.

"the commander of a ship that
has just exploded"

How do we know it is that ship in particular that has exploded? In the scene, the asteroid (or appears to have been the asteroid) exploded, not the ship. On top of that, the rest of the ship is still moving along, implying the ship itself has not "exploded" as I interpret "ship that has just exploded" as the entirety of a ship exploding...kinda like how ST ships and Deathstars have a tendancy to do

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Second is somewhat based off of and supports my first argument of the asteroid exploding. In the scene it appears to me as if the asteroid is exploding and not the bridge. This is based on a few things. If indeed the asteroid impacted and destroyed the bridge as well as itself, I do not believe it would have exploded in such manner, it would have smashed into the bridge (rock hitting a pop can effect), tore through it, or tore it off.

The explosion (based on the fact that the bridge tower doesn't house massive quantities of unstable material near where the asteroid collided...which I find highly likely) you think would originate from the asteroid impact, and from a 3D perspective (given intended optical illusion of 2d) the depth of where the asteroid hit as well. Now if you look at the screenshot that labeled "post impact" on ST v SW net (can't post links yet) the explosion looks to be outside the asteroid (which if it was, the asteroid would not have "shattered" because it would be like a "firecracker in the palm of your hand" like explained on the movie armageddon.) Yes you can argue that explosion caused the asteroid to break up, but this is space, pure vacuum, and an explosion outside of a solid rock wouldn't cause it to explode and shatter unless it was made out of a fragile material, in which case, how did it damage the solid metal (or SW term for really hard metal) bridge?

Even though analyzing it frame by frame such as those screenshots, in the post impact screen shot, yes the explosion looks like it takes place outside the asteroid. (Which, rock on metal doesnt create giant explosions like that on minimal first contact) On top of that, the explosion doesnt even seem centered on the impact point in the first place, so this all could be limitation of special effects, which analyzing any movie frame by frame - especially before computer based special effects, your going to find inconsistancies (aka stardestroyers and the old enterprise don't need fishing line from God to move through space) To me, looking at the scene in its entirety, this explosion looks to emmanate from the asteroid, not the bridge.

Given that in a perfect collision there is no loss of Kinetic energy AKA in any collision momentum is conserved. If the shields were taken down and the bridge indeed was destroyed and the asteroid dissappears, momentum should have transfered into the ship and the part that keeps drifting along should have some sort of spin (otherwise how would the bridge be destroyed if it did not take any kinetic energy?). Buts since the asteroid explodes (and if you look closely - seems to explode slightly faster than when it collided, which very speculatively could be the momentum of the asteroid combined with the momentum of the ship), this would go so far to prove that the shields did not fail, or the bridge was not destroyed.

Since the asteroid is more dense (no overly sized spaces for people to walk through) it would have "smashed into the bridge" not exploded with the bridge. Think of throwing a rock at a full popcan, sure there would be an explosion, but asteroid wouldn't explode into tiny peices, unless it hit something "harder" (due to shields) than itself and lost.

Now my third argument could go either way to say the bridge was or was not destroyed, and that would be limitation of special effects technology.

One could say to generate the look of the asteroid exploding they had to somehow overlay the explosion (with blank background) over the ship. This is supported by the fact that the scene immediatley switches as the explosion is just finishing (to prevent the obvious magically missing bridge from being seen), and the fact you dont see "destroyed sections of ship" behind the explosion.

On the other hand, you could say the reason why you dont see the asteroid "smashing" into the bridge, or tearing through it, is due to limitation of special effects and they decided to just "make an explosion"

You could say "they meant for how the audience took it" but that depends on how the audience takes it (which will be biased), and without direct word word from the guys who did the movie, we will never know on the visual part of the scene if: the bridge is gone due to an effect limitation, or the explosion was used to cover an effect limitation.

In conclusion based on the science of the explosion (all the kinetic energy seemingly remains with the asteroid), and how the script can be interpreted either way (they don't even say its a star destroyer that just exploded even) and how we will really never know on the special effect side of things (if the bridge was actually meant to be seen missing) I would say the bridge is still there.

Unless you can show me footage of the explosion being completley over, and the bridge still missing, or have the special effect guys saying "yea, it was suppose to destroy the bridge." I feel the ship was meant to survive the impact. So we can argue this all day long, but will never truly have an absolute answer. Canon however, says the ship survived, and even if it was, canon also says that Star Destroyers, (of any clas s) can easily withstand much more punishment than just an asteroid.

This is not to say that other ships werent destroyed, or even if the ship did lose its bridge, if it wasn't already hit several times by other large asteroids.

 

Thing is, you can clearly see through the debris field where the bridge should be. Also, do note that, when the A-Wing impacted the bridge of the SSD, it did significant damage, enough to put it into a death dive. An Asteroid impacting the bridge (even if said asteroid DID explode, which in itself makes no sense - asteroids aren't generally explosive, and said asteroid was barely moving at even mach speeds) would have more kinetic energy than an A-Wing.

 

The TRON universe is one missing from the list.

 

I apologize to tear your paragraph apart to respond to it bit by bit, but it helps me respond more easily, also I am not trying to take any of your wording out of context, if you find so, please let me know.

I certainly give you that... to me overall, the scene doesn't really make sense either way, unless you blame limitation of special efftects :shrug:

Exactly, and if the whole bridge tower is missing, (besides going against the whole kinetic energy transfer) why is it still flying forward perfectly normal?

This may be a very poor example, but take a pool ball, not very explosive, throw it against a sidewalk as hard as you can, and it "explodes/shatters". Keep in mind as hard as you throw isnt remotely close to mach speeds either. Now throw in the sheer weight and momentum of an entire asteroid (Train like effect). You could mention trapped gases and what not in an asteroid too, but I chose to leave that out of the question as to not start a debate on whether the asteroids would have gases in them

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Another example would be to take a large 100 lb rock/boulder and throw it from 2nd or 3rd floor onto street or sidewalk(still no where near mach speeds) and it will (depending on its material yes I know) "explode/shatter" ....course it might only just break in two depending on how stubborn it is...lol.

The idea is, something that wouldn't normally explode, would if it hits something stronger that itself, like the asteroid hitting the shields. Both wouldn't just magically stop, both wouldn't just explode either - one of them would have to absorb all the kinetic energy to explode in this situation. Unless of course they kept highly volatile compounds in the bridge tower, which I highly doubt they would do, and if they did, the asteroid itself still wouldn't explode along with it (fire cracker in the palm of your hand scenario - and then in the vacuum of space).

Anyhow I hoped that made sense..lol.

 

Good grief I do not care if Tron universe is not there go away or pick something from up there. Sheech shield strength if u really watch the astroid hit the ship the ship explodes, duh watch the stuff u defend.

 

I think they were probably implying that TRON has a universe like all the others which would be somewhat different to Star Wars or Star Trek, in honesty there is a point that the universe itself (in "reality") might not even be "real". Obviously though I'm not trying to step on your toes, upset Yoda or get some Klingon pregnant.

 

If the universe isn't real we all be in some matrix type stuff and so your saying that is what I don't want to believe in. So ya please go upset Yoda and the Klingon would kill u for just being u.

 

always thought oxygen was highly volatile..:shrug:

yes!..it was in english.

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some time these guys get WAY to technical for me..
---

um i heard a ST insult..been trying to wait for the funniest opportunity to utilize it..but sometimes i can be impatient..

hes like a ferengi who thinks he is a klingon..

 

Thanks NM

I try not to get too technical because both universes easily contradict themselves show to show, or tech specs to what we see in movies or shows.

A good example for Star Trek is the fact that the ships are easily capable of acceleration that would dam near liquify solid metal, (zero to full impulse). Yet when two ships are sitting in front of each other (not moving), shields fully up, and one fires, and the other ship gets slightly jostled from the impact, the entire crew get flown across the bridge, bulkheads (made out of some super strong metal) falling from the ceiling, and sometimes a random roll of a warp core breach, all the while the shields are still up. It doesn't make sense; they can handle the insane Gs of that acceleration, but not the Gs of a little "shake" from a weapons impact - which the shake is so small you dont see it from any scenes outside the ships.

Now star wars is just as bad. You read their technical manuals on what the fighter top speeds are in "Gs". Then when you convert them to something like kilometers an hour or so; if took two starfighters dogfighting, -given the specs listed in the tech manual- They would be moving so dam fast that even at 100 miles away, they would pass by each other before each pilots mind could even register they saw their opponent, let alone adjust their course and track their target. If you were chasing an opponent and they went one way, and you immediately adjusted, by that time they would already be 1,000 miles away. It just doesnt make any sense. (And these speeds are nothing like what you see in the movies)

There is a lot of examples for both universes, but the end result is, you can't get too technical otherwise you start seeing "science holes" in the universes and end up enjoying it less. Thus why I think this is why SOMETIMES people get heated. Because you point out a fallacy using that universes own science, and thus put a blemish on someones perfectly explained idealized universe, that now no longer makes sense with itself. So they try desperately to try and explain it away. Not always mind you, just some people, some of the time.

I have this view because I myself am writing a book, one that I hope someday will introduce its own sci-fi universe that will have its own fan following.

Speaking of which...be prepared for a big ol wall of text coming up somtime of me comparing the two universes of what I like and dont like and how I think each one would win.

 

That's why the contest has to be won by comparative test..who did better at what not...some goof pop corn science from 2D.

 

The Big O Wall of Text - yes just Part 1

INTRODUCTION

So here it is, the first part of "The Big O Wall of Text," - I like to call em thread killers, cause thats usually what mine do

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I am hoping it will start up some interesting conversation as I don't know fanatical amounts about each universe, just good bits and pieces. I will probably break this up into multiple posts just to make peoples lives a little easier.

Now in all honestly, I will admit I am probably a little bit biased to the Star Wars universe over Star Trek. Not entirely sure why, but thats how I feel I am, -probably cause Star Trek constantly messes with my "willing suspension of disbelief" by bringing up "reality" comparisons all the time.

However, I feel that I will give both a fair due because of the fact that I do like both, and I am writing my own book with its own universe, and I hope someday people will treat it the same way. - sounds a little sappy..sorry

Now before I get to indepth, I am not going to play a numbers technical details game, see my above post for why, and to qoute Saquist :

"That's why the contest has to be won by comparative test..who did better at what not...some goof pop corn science from 2D"

Second, "technically" The New Republic and Federation, would never go to war - they would find a pieceful coexistence solution, and if federation went to war with the Empire, they would help out the oppressed and eventually you would end up with hybrid ships. "The never needing refueling Star Wars capital ship energy, faster hyperspace travel, and mass manufacturing, mixed with the obsesively efficient Star Trek ships" - more on that later.

So overall I do not try to obsess over every little scene with every little detail and number representation - some of it is ok- just not hypothetical, on top of hypethetical, on top of hypethetical numbers. I am trying to do an "overal average" impression of each universe. I welcome people mentioning all the different technologies, and races from each universe, and some numbers being shown, (especially The Trek stuff, cause there is just so much of it I don't know, and enjoy learning about.) And in general I welcome people offering up contradictions and pointing all my wrongs, cause I am sure there will be many...

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The timelines I will be comparing: Generally I see people referencing all the Trek times, so I will myself be using much of them, but Im not gonna use insane futures that sometimes show up in the certain episodes of certain shows, so I will be using timelines of Kirk, to Janeway and Picard. (Don't know the exact years) Star Wars I will be referencing up to (including the passed of Star Wars) The New Jedi Order books to about 75% through the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, (Several years after destruction of second Death Star and Han and Leia have kids that are in later Teens)

THE SUPERPOWERS - THE FORCE, Q

Now I know somewhere they mentioned the rules and not to compare the two, but I am going to do just a quick (hahah quick..) small (heheh even funnier) comparison.

Given absolutes of whats stated in the show, and giving the fact that superpowered beings can intereact with each galaxy, then yes if you throw in Q, and it was a complete Star Trek vs Star Wars universe battle, the Q would win. Snap their fingers and poof all Star Wars gone. However, (correct me if I am wrong) but it is stated the Q don't interfere with the universe of mortal beings. That being said, they would watch and do nothing, and be "Entertained" by the epic battle between the two galaxies. One of my reference for this is the TNG (I believe) episode where it is found out one of the crew of the enterprise finds out shes Q. There are some other shows where Q has mentioned similar things I believe. So I feel using them in an arguement in a way is a mute point. Now "Q" himself -the one you see show up in the shows,- he might screw around a little bit, but even he has to follow the rules and couldn't turn the tide of the entire battle.

Now as for the Jedi, there are the Sith, Jedi, and the Grey, (those who are neither whole Dark or Light ) The Je Saari or something I believe are a good example. Using certain things such as Battle Meditation (fleet wide buffs basically) their precognitive abilities (which you could apply to battle meditation and command) they would be devastating fleet benefactors. (The opposite of what you would expect of them being great at ground combat). They could tell ships and their gunners where Star Trek ships will be before there even there. You can also look at their extreme examples of power -force storms that can destroy entire fleets (emperor on ecipse SSD), slamming Star Destroyer sized objects into planets - (Starkiller- forced unleashed game -considered canon and just one example)- and there are a few others. However, these abilities and levels of power are extremely rare, but also, highly effective.

Ground combat wise, the Jedi surprisingly would be a lot less effective (except applying battle meditation to ground warfare, their precognitive abilities, and direct force powers), but overall the lightsaber deflection would be useless if two or 3 users fired phasers at a Jedi, they would be unable to angle their lightsaber correctly to block all 3 few second long bursts of energy. They could block one, or two (lining lightsaber up correctly) but not all the time, and not all Jedi are as proficient at this. They would have force push, force lightning, and force grip, so if they had a contingent of troopers supporting them, they would be very effective, but only too a point, and in a supporting role. (And I doubt you would ever really get to a ground combat situation really, if they would I will talk about that later.)

This is all given that they could interact with each other. Another thing to look at, whether or not the "super" powers of each galaxy actually could interact with each other. I will start with the Jedi. When the Yuuzhan Vong first invaded -from another galaxy- the Jedi could not sense them or effect them directly. Yes they could pick up a desk from the Jedi galaxy and throw it at a Vong, but they could not pick up a Vong and throw him.

Stargate has something to this effect as well, where the ancients would be powerless in the Orai's galaxy for varying reasons. Following this pattern, the Q may not be able to effect anything Star Wars, they may be able to fling Star Trek ships around their galaxy to make up for their slow warp, but not be able to effect Star Wars matter directly. In my limited support of this, Q always mentions just "galaxy" in the shows he appears in. He never talks about being "Universal" supreme beings. Given deduction of that, the Q may be powerless outside their own galaxy.

Lastly, is the comparison of the two's powers directly. Very tricky, but I will try my best here. Q (again correctly if I am wrong) are basically highly evolved beings. Now given the general popular belief of science fiction (pick a universe, any scifi univers), all beings "enlightened" enough, evolve into energy or some such. Now take that and apply it to the Star Wars universe.

Now this is a scientific approach to the force, this does not mean how it is- but Trekkies like science, not spiritual power -though one could say its the same. The Star Wars galaxy is hundreds of thousands of years old. (Yes humans been around in that galaxy for that long.) One could say that the force itself is the beginnings of "beings" beginning their first steps towards evolving into energy or whatever. Unfortunately, one of two things happen at this point; this power corrupts them -darkside- (absolute power corrupts absolutely) or in fighting to prevent corruption -lightside- they turn themselves into a quasi religious sect, saying "the force" is a spiritual power and try very hard to be "enlightened". So given this, the Jedi and Q could effect each other, and possibly since you can't really see "force users" really use the force on other force users, its possible the Q couldn't effect them and vice versa, or maybe even most of the star wars galaxy because "most" things in the Star Wars galaxy, are imbued with force energy to some small extent. More proof supporting the fact that Jedi are possibly "slightly evolved beings" is after Jedi die, you can see their "ghosts" or "Force beings", possibly having "ascended" to use Stargates term.

The argument to this is Midicloriens - ahh yes the dreaded mention of midicloriens (Stabs self in jugular) -Thanks George. The arguement is they can be measured scientifically and Q cannot, thus, Jedi powers can be blocked, destroyed, and aren't enlightened beings and thus get "powned""

First, the Star Wars galaxy is thousands upon thousands of years old, their technology might just be more advanced than it appears, OR, they have been around the force for forever, so have developed instruments to measure or detect it, where as Q don't exactly hang around to let anyone ever have a chance to develop ways of blocking them or detecting them.

The Second approach to this, and the one I personally believe is correct. Is the fact that Quigon didn't exactly explain things correctly. Example: Obi-Wan Kenobi said "Vader betrayed and murdered your father." - Yea we know all about "certain point of view" thanks to that. Guess who was Qui-Gons padawan? So naturally I assume he got his inability to explain things correctly from his master. The one who said "Midicloriens is what gives a Jedi his power" in retrospect I think he meant that by measuring Midicloriens, you could measure ones potential force abilities. Midicloriens are like a side effect of having high force ability. Similar to a high white blood cell count is a way to tell if one is sick.

If you take the force as the "spiritual energy" that differs from evolved beings energy, I will not discuss that becuase it becomes a philosophical debate, and thats a whole other thread for another day.

So, for the rest of my Big O Wall of Text, I am going to accept that the Q would not interfere, and the Jedi would be unable to effect Star Trek matter directly or somehow the two would cancel each other out. Thereby really removing the two from the argument for the most part.

So concludes part 1

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dude that was a wall of pure unimaginable beginnings, perhaps you just might be able to give enough ammo to both sides to kill each other later. That said since people are going to hate you for this their going to take apart your words and out them against you and others. Other than that Im going to keep an open mind to what u are saying.

 

iow..DUCK!

 

It would be interesting to change the avatar, with all the respect in the world seems to not believe something violent?

 

LoL thats all I can ask for is that you keep an open mind. I know its a lot, and will make people hate me probably, but at least it will stir up some intelligent conversation (hopefully) and I can learn more from each universe.

 

If thats your aim just go take a poll or something,,,,.... which is what your doing here okay... well if are Star Trek wins hands down and SW cant shoot straight.