Star Wars vs Star Trek

1. Every time you see a Phaser used on higher settings - such as when Riker vaporized that woman in one episode and there was no room engulfing cloud of super hot steam from her being vaporized.

2. Super weapons just seem the best way to reconcile with the more sane yields. It just seems like they were using some sort of special weapon given this sort of thing is never mention again anywhere (that I know of).

Hypermatter reactors don't seem to scale down to figther size. Fighters use some form of fusion reactor that can burn heavier elements like Iron and such IIRC.

The only really overriden is the firepower levels since they are inconsistent outside of the ICS. The fact remains that Hypermatter reactors are the standard (war)ship reactor.

True.

Will it is meant as a terror weapon and troop transport.

That assumes the rebels control orbit and not the Imperials and that the Imperial ground forces are not to close to some thing the rebels want to capture intact.

Yep, that would be funny.

Only for them to recreate the Infinite Energy Producing Thingy... which GIR hooks himself up to and Deadly Wave of Stupidness(TM) spread throughout the universe until another SIR unit unplugs him. PAKs return Irkens to normal and they turn the Federation crew that did this into... ah... fast food Drones!

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*Throws a W’rkncacnter at Q using some Jjaro tech and floats off laughing as Q takes a galaxy size explosion from a punch*

 

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Again, my inability to post links just yet confounds me. However, ProphetofWisdom is actually correct on this. Phasers and disruptors DO generate a Nuclear Disruption Force effect on target materials, that magnifies their effective yield. This would apply to both matter and any kind of shield, since it's literally disrupting the nuclear forces that bond matter together so any kind of shield, be it particle, electromagnetic, gravimetric, etc. would be equally effected. Per calculations my friends and I have run on the Borg Cube in TNG "Q Who?" (I would link to the thread with the calculations, if I could; perhaps I could message them to someone to be reposted here for the time being?), TNG-era phaser yields, for raw energy output, are in the high terajoule to low petajoule range. The NDF effect magnifies this discharge to generate an effective yield (against target materials not hardened/protected against the NDF effect) that is 1315 times greater than the actual energy discharge, which puts the Galaxy's most powerful observed shot (TNG "Rascals") into the low exajoule/gigaton range for effective yield. More typical shots are in the single-exajoule/quarter-to-half gigaton range. Standard photon torp yield is 42 megatons, ~50-100 times greater than the typical raw energy discharges we see from Trek phasers/disruptors, but still comparably effective thanks to the NDF effect.

Trek ships don't NEED super-weapons to blast a planet to smithereens, because their phasers and disruptors can do the job just fine since planets aren't hardened against the phaser/disruptor NDF effect.

There is also no reason to believe that Wars ships would be hardened against this effect.

No, the tiered canon system is purely for the SW:EU internal canon. The official Star Wars universe, as concieved and built by Lucas, does not include the EU books and materials. There are two canons here, just like Trek. Wars official canon is The Features (live-action and CGI movies and shows), The Scripts, and The Novelizations. Period. If you want to include Wars EU, then you should in fairness allow Trek EU in as well (and we get Genesis weapons).


Even that aside, though, the ICS books are absurd and obvious fan-wankery. Saxton was an active, pro-Wars member of the VS debating community before he wrote the ICS, and he maintained contact with prominent members of an extremely militant, pro-Wars VS community (stardestroyer.net) while he was writing the books, and afterward. It is the definition of a biased material. Furthermore, NONE of its output figures can be supported in the films, scripts or novelizations. The largest explosion we see in the SW movies, outside of the Death Star, is from Jango Fett's missile, which produced a fireball that was in the low-kiloton size range. No other weapon, even weapons hitting the ground, produce damage effect yields above that range. In fact, most weapons are not much more energetic than their modern ballistic weapon equivalents.

Not by at all. Wars walkers are clunky, slow, unwieldy and horribly unbalanced. The Clone Wars-era walkers do have the advantage of being fairly stable (low center-of-mass, multiple legs, etc.), but they're just as slow and unwieldy. Mechs from, say, the Battletech universe are much more stable, even the bipedal designs, and much more mobile.

I don't think the AT-ST can really be compared to a HMMWV... Maybe the new MRAP/M-ATVs, but even then it doesn't work. The Earth vehicles are designed to carry troops around the battlefield, the AT-ST is not. There is no real space in the cockpit for more than just the crew. You could get a pair of storm troopers squeezed in there, but it would be tight. The AT-ST's role fits more with the M3 Bradley, only without the infantry scouting support (the M3 Bradley, a scouting version of the Bradley platform, can carry two scouts in addition to the crew; while the AT-ST could probably carry two troopers in addition to the crew, they have no practical means of ingress and egress for scouting operations). The way the AT-ST was used on Endor and Hoth indicates that it is the Empire's primary light armor unit, more comparable to an M2 or M3 Bradley, or perhaps a Light Tank in WWII, and not a light APC.

Hell, the AT-AT is a piss-poor troop carrier. A fall from that height could be potentially lethal, and Luke is lucky he escaped without any broken bones. Just getting down under normal circumstances would be extremely difficult, or require the AT-AT to make itself extremely vulnerable, and getting out in an emergency (or if the AT-AT just kinda, you know, fell over), the troopers inside would be pretty frakked.

And, again, the weapons yields demonstrated by Wars fighters and attack craft are far, far, far below the '20 kiloton range' touted by certain websites and biased stats books. The observable effects of the weapons against terrain, and the effects of other 'weapons' that we can measure the energy of (i.e. logs in EPVI) indicate that their endurance is far, far, far below the kiloton range, and in fact much more in line with modern-day Earth weaponry.

I'd take an M1 Abrams with SABOT rounds over ANY Star Wars walker any day.

Yeah, orbital bombardment was out in that case, for a number of reasons. You wouldn't need a full-fledged starship for it, though... A shuttlepod would work, or probably even a large phaser rifle.

 

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Actually, the Irkens wouldn't be able to do that - the Deadly Wave of Stupidness wouldn't spread outside the holodeck, as everything is a holographic simulation (including their tools) - I'm talking a holodeck ala the holoship from Insurrection

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rawr

 

Hey! I take offense to that!

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Yeah, welcome to the warzone Ilithi_Dragon.

 

Hahaha, Thanks! I think... >.>

 

I've been thinking about the yield figures given in TNG "The Survivors", and how they don't make sense with the Federation having anti-matter power generations, multi-megaton anti-matter warheads (the asteroids destroyed in TNG "Cost of Living" and VOY "Rise" would have required warhead yields of several megatons at absolute least to generated the observed and expected results, with dozens to hundreds of megatons being more likely, and which could be easily achieved with anti-matter warheads), low petajoule-range energy outputs from their capital ship phasers (E-D's first shot against the Cube in "Q Who?"), and numerous statements of power outputs much higher than the high gigawatt range (VOY "Revulsion" with 5,000,000 gigawatts flowing through a single EPS conduit, TNG "True Q" with Data's exajoule-range energy figure of 12,750,000,000 gigawatts per something, etc.). 400 gigawatts of energy, even accounting for the NDF effect of phasers and disruptors, should not be surprisingly high at all. In fact, the should be surprisingly LOW. Which may give us our explanation here. Worf was definitely expressing shock at the energy figure, but it was never expressly stated that the shock was from the energy figure being so high. His shock could have been from the energy figure being so low and doing so much damage, to the point of draining the shields. Given that the entire thing was an illusion created by a being on a power level at least comparable to the Organians, there is no reason why Worf's sensors couldn't have been telling him that the E-D was getting hit with 400 gigawatts of energy, while the shields were collapsing as if they were hit by much higher energy levels, and there is nothing in the context or dialogue that contradicts the possibility. Given that it is a much better fit with the other, much higher and more commonly observed and stated energy levels, I consider this to be much more likely than the E-D's shields being overwhelmed by several 400-gigawatt pulses of energy while withstanding and delivering much higher energy yields in other instances.

 

Um...

 

-de dum de doodley-doo?

 

No, bad!

 

Me and PoW were getting lonely

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You know... I can't help but wonder if the Federation may well be large than the Empire... The super-galactic civilization of the later EU aside (which is in direct contradiction to the earlier EU material, including some of my first and favorite SW books, which make it clear that the Empire/Wars civilization is definitely NOT super-galactic... There is a definite trend of the SW civilization getting larger and larger later in the EU, especially after certain pro-Wars communities became prominent, and certain former pro-Wars debaters became EU authors... Hmm...), the official canon points to a much, much smaller Empire/Republic.

In Attack of the Clones, when Obi Wan is first looking for Kamino, the map he pulls up in the Jedi Library and consults a librarian for assistance with shows the Wars galaxy and either a neighboring galaxy on the verge of collision with the Wars galaxy, or the same galaxy at a different orientation. Either way, the location of the map Obi Wan points to is well inside the edge of the galaxy, even though the planet he is looking for is far beyond the 'Outer Rim.' When he goes to consult with Yoda, the region the map zooms in on to where Kamino should be is again well inside the perimeter of the galaxy (and surprisingly close to the galactic core). There was civilization there, yes, but for the Galactic Republic, it was deep into the frontier.

Then in "Attack of the Clones", Count Dooku is said to have several thousand systems under his control, with ten thousand more ready to join him. The Republic is also said to be 'split in two' by this point. Even granting liberal interpretations of 'several thousand' and 'split in two', there is absolutely no way that the Galactic Republic could be a galaxy-spanning civilization with those hard-canon numbers. There are a million stars within ~400 lightyears of Earth. There are a LOT of stars in a galaxy, even if you take a small galaxy with a low stellar density, you'd have millions of stars in an area only a couple thousand lightyears across. If even tens of thousands of worlds are that significant to the Republic, there is no way it spans the galaxy, unless the Wars galaxy is positively tiny.

In the "A New Hope" novelization, Tarkin says that there are a million worlds in the Empire. It's not specified whether they are all inhabited, nor to what degree of habitation, but it does put a size cap on the Empire. Even with inhabited worlds and not just territorial holdings, the Empire definitely does not span the entire galaxy. There are ~300 million stars within 5,000 lightyears of Earth, and an Empire with a million habitable worlds would easily fit in that space, or much less. Again, too, because we know that the Republic had only a hundred thousand significant worlds at most (giving very liberal interpretations to 'several thousand' and 'split in two'; ~40-50,000 worlds in general, with notably fewer of them 'significant worlds' would be more reasonable), and the Empire as built upon the foundations of the Republic, we can put a reasonable cap on the Empire. Even allowing for the Empire to have expanded its borders in the 20 years between RotS and ANH, going from ~100,000 significant worlds at bending-over-backwards most, to 1,000,000 significant worlds is rather unlikely. I find it more likely that Tarkin was referring to the entirety of the Empire's holdings (which would have been the most impressive, after all, and his statement was obviously aimed at being impressive).

A reasonable assumption, then, is that the Empire has some 1,000,000 worlds in its territory all together, with ~100,000 inhabited worlds, and ~30-50,000 significant worlds.

Territorially, in ANH, we also learn that the Empire comprises "A small corner of a modest-sized galaxy." This could easily mean that the Wars galaxy is <40,000 lightyears in diameter. The average galaxy size in our local galactic cluster is only some 36,500 lightyears in diameter, even discounting the galaxies smaller than 10,000 lightyears in diameter (the Milky Way and Andromeda are absolutely huge galaxies). A 'modest-sized' galaxy could easily be ~30,000 lightyears in diameter, or less. Even with 75% the average Milky Way stellar density, the Empire could easily occupy an area only a thousand lightyears across, which would fit the description of "a small corner of a modest-sized galaxy." Allowing for explored but unaffiliated or openly hostile/rebellious areas around the Empire, and giving it some extra girth to allow for areas of the former Republic and the surrounding region that refused to join the Empire or are in a state of open rebellion, plus additional room for error, and the Empire could easily be only 1500 lightyears across, and the entire SW saga could take place in an area only 2000 lightyears across. Especially with Qui Gon's statement in TMP that most stars in the Wars galaxy have habitable worlds.


By comparison, we know for a fact that the Federation spans an area some 8,000 lightyears across. Even allowing for an irregularly-shaped Federation, and patchy regions that are inhabited by pre-warp or early-warp civilizations that are not a part of the Federation, the Federation could easily have around 100 million worlds in its territory. Cutting that in half to give a lower estimate, the Federation would have 50 million worlds, or 50 times the stellar territory of the Empire, and over 35 times the total territorial holding (giving Wars a 75% Milky Way average stellar density to maximize their territorial size).

We also know that the Federation has over 150 member worlds by 2373. This figure can only be member homeworlds, because 150 worlds could not hold 8,000 lightyears of space, and we know for a fact that the Federation had over 1,000 colonies by the 2250s (and probably more, because the dialogue of The Cage/The Menagerie indicates that that was just human colonies). By the 2370s that number has undoubtedly increased significantly. If we assume that the average number of colonies per Federation member world in the 2370s is 500 (if Earth had 1000 in 2250, less than 90 years after the foundation of the Federation, it probably had at least another thousand, if not considerably more founded in the 120 years following, though obviously the younger members aren't going to have that many, especially since the dialogue in The Cage/The Menagerie indicates that there was a significant increase in the number of colony worlds in 18 years since the crashed), that gives the Federation a total inhabited planet count of ~75,000 worlds, just counting colonies and full member worlds, and not including various territorial holdings, protectorates, etc.

So that leaves us with the following:

Empire: ~40,000 significant worlds, ~100,000 total inhabited holdings/worlds, 1,000,000 total controlled star systems, and a territorial size of ~1500 lightyears across.

Federation: ~75,000 member and colony worlds, unknown total inhabited holdings/worlds (protectorates, etc.), ~50,000,000 total controlled star systems, and a territorial size of >8,000 lightyears across.


Now, depending on the average population densities of the planets of the Empire and the Federation, the Empire may well have a greater population than the Federation's straight member worlds, but if you add in the Federation's territorial holdings and protectorates, etc., the total population pool the Federation can draw from is probably equal to the Empire at the very least, if not notably greater.

This is especially likely when you consider that 200,000 clone troopers, with "A million more on the way" was considered a sizable army to the Republic. In less than two years of a war that they were generally winning to that point, the Cardassians had lost over 7 million soldiers. The Cardassian Union is considerably smaller than the Federation, and was easily defeated by just the Federation in their long and bitter war during the 2350s and early 2360s (for the Federation, it was little more than a border war, but for the Cardassians, the conflict apparently crashed their economy). The Federation, even with a much smaller relative military size, undoubtedly has an at absolute minimum a comparable military size, and probably a significantly larger total military force.


This ultimately gives the Federation more territory, more resources, and more personnel to draw from than the Empire, and significantly so. It also means that Federation starships are also probably notably faster than Imperial starships. At the very least, their high sprinting speeds would leave Wars ships in the dust, though Wars ships may have higher sustainable speeds than Trek cruising speeds.

 

Really? It states the GFFA is 120,000 light years in size. It is stated the GE has 1 million worlds important to them, with 70,000,000 more member worlds, with billions of planets that aren't in complete control of the GE.

 

Where does it state that? Where does it state that the Wars galaxy is 120,000 lightyears in diameter? Where does it state that the Empire has over 70 million inhabited worlds and billions of planets?

The only canon reference to the size of the SW galaxy comes from the A New Hope novelization, which calls it 'a modest-sized galaxy.' 120,000 lightyears is FAR from a 'modest' size for a galaxy. A modest-sized galaxy would be on the order of ~36,000 lightyears in diameter, or less.

Additionally, Tarkin's quote from the ANH novelization makes no sense if the Empire controls any significant number more worlds than a million. The implication was that a million was a lot, that it was the grand Empire that controlled that much, and it spoke to the might of the Empire that it controlled that many worlds. If the Empire controlled over 70 million worlds, or billions of worlds, Tarkin would have said so. The main was an arrogant, self-inflated ass, and anything he could do to make the Empire look bigger or more impressive, and by connection himself, he would have done. That's just the kind of person he was.

Furthermore, the Republic was "split in two" by the seccession of only a couple tens of thousands of worlds. Even giving the most liberal interpretations to "Split in two" and "several thousand", the absolute largest the Republic could be and still have that statement be even remotely believable is 100,000 member worlds. That is hard canon fact. Thousands of worlds leaving, in all reasonable interpretations less than twenty thousand worlds leaving, was enough to split the Republic in two. There is no tens of millions of member worlds there, no billions of planets. 100,000 worlds leaving would have been a drop in the bucket next to that, even if the Empire increased the size of the Republic by a full order of magnitude.

 

The galaxy was one of the quadrillions of galaxies that existed in the universe. This galaxy was particularly important since it was the setting of the histories of the Galactic Republic, the Galactic Civil War, the Yuuzhan Vong War, the Jedi and the Sith.

According to some sources, the galaxy was 120,000 light years across, or 37,000 Parsecs (a parsec is 3.258 light years), and approximately 13 billion years old.[3] A black hole existed at the center of the galaxy. The galaxy was orbited by seven satellite galaxies: Companion Aurek (also known as the Rishi Maze), Firefist, and Companions Cresh through Grek. However, most of the Companions were described as having ancient, metal-poor stars and not much life.[3] There was also a Hyperspace disturbance beyond the edge of the galaxy that prevented hyperspace routes outside the disk. The galaxy had nearly two hundred globular clusters.[3]

Bullshit. Andromeda is a *large* galaxy, whereas the Milky Way is an average sized galaxy. 36,000 light years can be considered a dwarf galaxy.

Oh? AOTC: Incredible Cross Sections is a good example. If you take the 40,000 inhabited systems of the Chommel Sector and multiply it by 1,000 sectors you get 400 million. That's going to give a low estimate though, since the Chommel Sector is considered a small sector and in the ROTS novel there was mention of 1000s of sectors...so 400 million is only a conservative estimate of how many planets there are.

Anyway, what I am doing here? I'm supposed to be talking about how Covenant use megaton based weapons.

 

Grah! This stupid post-count-before-urls thing is driving me crazy! Excuse me for a moment while I get the three additional posts I need to be able to respond properly.

 

Because, I mean, seriously, 20 posts? I can certainly understand the reasoning behind it, for spam prevention and all, that does make sense.

 

Okay, let me destroy the ST galaxy with my Tombship.

 

But, still, 20 posts? That's a bit much, don't you think? 5 or 10 would be much more reasonable, just as effective, and far less of a pain in the tail...

 

You sir, are spamming so you can show links. What the hell is the matter with you?