"Spooky action at a distance" What did he mean?

Using your rational means that in the equation:
x + (-)x = 0
the value of x is meaningless.
it also means any math that leads to zero makes the values used as meaningless...

As all values in math are relative to zero you are claiming mathematics is meaningless...
and you consider me to be anti science! bah!

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Actually your contextual error leads on to another statement that makes use of your error, but we shall leave that for another thread..

 

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to move forward:

 

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I have not said that it is possible - but it can be modelled as such, and is done all the time - in fact every time we use t=0 in a model.

No apologies necessary: if you misunderstand what people say then it is natural you can arrive at such false conclusions.

No. The equation is valid and has meaning precisely because we are in a universe that exists - i.e. where something exists that gives them meaning.
If nothing existed (as you assume at delta-t=0) then that equation would not exist, x would have no meaning. There would be no equation, no x, nothing else with which to give the non-existent equation and non-existent x meaning.
By giving something meaning you give it existence, even if just as a mental construct / concept. Something that does not exist can have no meaning.
It should not be too difficult to understand, even for you.

All this stems from your misunderstanding. I'd suggest you try to correct that and start again.

 

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I don't know where the stone comes from originally. I know that some geologists have said it is more likely to be local rather than meteoritic, even if it is the result of an impact of some form. It could possibly even be pumice. And I know ancient texts and the prevailing theory for much of the time suggest that it was metoritic.
I wouldn't claim to say it is "most likely" to be one or the other. In the absence of any concrete evidence, agnosticism should be the preferred position in my view.

 

Energy is never at rest, has no inertia unless it is bound by quantum entanglement or by some other mechanism, such as photons bouncing between a pair of lossless plane mirrors. Unless the mirrors accelerate, the photons remain between the mirrors as though bound by the electrons in the surfaces of the mirrors.

Matter is bound energy and may be at rest with respect only to other matter. Matter is energy that is bound by means of quantum entanglement. But, like energy, matter is a dynamic thing. It is never really at rest relative to itself.

Quantum entanglement is what gives particles of matter their sizes, shapes, and inertia by means of interaction with the Higgs mechanism. Virtual energy in the vacuum may be entangled everywhere. This is one reason it is nearly impossible for science to determine how much energy is there. There is a lot of it, but it is also everywhere at once. You might not notice very much of it, unless you understand all of the details of this model. Every bit of matter you see is seething with binding energy.

Despite Standard Model conclusions based on replacing the variable representing time with probabilities, General Relativity's Principle of Equivalence demands that inertial mass be equivalent to gravitational mass to a high degree of physical accuracy not mandated by the avoidance of quantum field infinities associated with time.

The speed of light, only a limit pertaining to relative velocities of energy or matter, but not entanglement or quantum fields, cannot be the origin of time because entanglement is faster. To verify this and the place relativity breaks down, you would need a timepiece or instrument that is itself based on quantum entanglement.

And lastly, as QQ has pointed out as a basic understanding of the Buddist faith, only time and energy and quantum fields and entanglement by means of them actually exist in this universe. Euclidean space with a time coordinate tacked on as an afterthought was a delusion of Minkowsky, who was a mathematician, not a physicist, and could not have cared less that this concept had no bindings to reality. At any rate, he would have likely faulted reality for not conforming to what was in his head. Real space as perceived by us and described by relativity is a superposition of the single dimension of time with the degrees of rotational freedom of propagating energy. Since space does not exist, it makes sense that quantum entanglement would not be affected by whatever large distance that may separate entangled particles.

Are we on the same page? Good. Pumice is a stone that floats because it is porous. Add a coating that is smooth and black and it still floats. A simple parlor trick.

Volcanic rock is as capable of becoming part of a meteor as anything else. It probably did not remain in one piece when it impacted. If it came from a meteorite, so what?

Did I miss any point that was of importance? I liked KF Panda too.

 

a good posting.. thanks...

I might add as a minor addition to your excellent thoughts that the term "entanglement" itself, implies 4 dimensions ( or at least 3 )

In essence when dealing with zero dimensions there is no entanglement. However when considering 3 spatial dimensions the term entanglement takes on relevance. ( it takes the illusion of distance created by matter to grant the term entanglement meaning.


The term no-existence (no - existent) was coined by a member here many years ago (perhaps 10) to help explain that zero is both existent and non-existent now that the universe is already pre-existent. ( if you follow my drift)
This issue of no-existent nothingness can be shown using a simple thought experiment where by a sphere is reduced in size to having an inner surface area of 1/infinity ( infinitesimal ) and demonstrate that in 3 dimensional space that the inner volume (which is >0) of that sphere is absolute nothing.
(Imagine a spherical torus - a true one and not the typical polarized one that is often referred to)

A volume of "nothingness" in 3 spatial dimensions means that nothingness can indeed co-exist within some-thing-ness at any point in 3 spatial dimensional space universally.

Perhaps too much in a few short paragraphs...

What this means to me is that all of space ( including that within substance) is infinitely entangled because all zero points are essentially the one zero point spread over 3 dimensions

0*infinity = 0 and still the same zero regardless of distance of separation, the distance being determined by matter ( not space )

Conception:
The volume of space universally is actually just simply "empty" volume created by the matter (energy) with in it and only appears to contain energy directly when worked upon. other wise no energy is present.
A bit like asking does gravity exist between two masses if there is nothing there to measure it with? Gravity like wise is non-existent but existent simultaneously IMO.
The energy taken from the void is actually energy residing in matter universally due to the entangled nature of that empty volume within matter.
Tap into one zero point and you tap into all...(sort of situation) Therefore energy is actually fully conserved and the universe is indeed a closed system, even if found eventually to be infinite in size and eternal in time
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The paradox, as mentioned before, can be easily demonstrated empirically using a simple lab set up that most high school labs would be equipped for essentially taking the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle to it's absolute genesis and why the principle is a natural outcome ( a prediction if you wish ) of what we have been discussing.

Dan, I do realize we are not quite in agreement on some issues and am just writing as I believe it...for you and others to compare with. An alternative view if you like...

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nah... just Sarkus wanting to flex his paranoid fear of anyone who questions scientific authority... eek!
there there Sarkus settle down, only joking...

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Normally I would agree with you and take a similar position however due to the recent circumstances of a Middle East gone mad, global preoccupation with Islamic extremism, suicidal recruitment, the unprecedented brutality of certain actors, end times paranoia and the serious and growing numbers of returned soldier suicides, ( not to mention missing commercial planes, commercial planes being shot down and rammed into a mountain side at over 700kph) I am unable to avoid the relationship that this particular stone appears to have. There are other reasons that I have not published that lead me to this position. ( As I mentioned )

I have been aware of entanglement in a very physical and personal sense for over 25 years and whether you believe in the nature of entanglement of the human mind/heart or not is not my concern.

By raising this issue into the consciousness of a few regardless of whether they believe me or not, the entanglement present and exaggerated due to this black stone can change and I believe that indeed it already has via the entanglement that exist with in those viewing this thread. At a deep subconscious level, news travels very fast....via entanglement.
I can quote other situations where this change in entanglement has occurred due to public exposure but will leave it for now. ( of course evidence is always circumstantial )

 

This is a lot to take in, QQ. You should not think of your ideas as very far outside of mainstream, however. My colleague Ted Johnson and mainstream physicist Eric Verlinde have similar ideas about emergent space that had no traction at all until the discovery of the Higgs boson in 2012. We need to disperse ideas of Euclidean space which seem to be binding 21st century physics to the mathematical ideas of ancient Greece.

What appears to be 3 (or wrongly 4) spatial dimensions are only superpositions of singular dimension known as time and the degrees of freedom associated with energy propagation. Relativity 101 proposed that lengths were equivalent to light travel time. I now formally propose that since light is evidently NOT the fastest thing in this universe, we must now replace the whole concept of length or separation with entanglement time, which we cannot as yet measure because we possess no suitable timepiece. Special Relativity showed us that the lengths we seem to perceive may shrink to nothing relative to an observer in motion, but stopped short of saying that lengths are really temporal in nature. A Doppler shift or time dilation of the energy bound as matter when it moves in any direction proves this relation beyond any doubt. The space between particles of matter shrinks too, and this makes sense because it is mostly empty space.

There is much to commend the idea of conceptual consistency. The whole study of mathematics shows this, even if such concepts are not necessarily bound to this reality.

We can do this here. It's pseudoscience, after all, and so it need not be bound to misconceptions of either math nor science.

 

perhaps clarification of language being used may benefit?
To me entanglement is always instantaneous and not infinitely fast. The distance between zero points A and A' is zero as they are essentially the same zero point A.
So to me the speed of light still stands as the speed limiter both regards to "no faster " and "no slower"
It is an invariant constant that forces the universe to spatially and "superficial time" adapt, when ever that constant is challenged.

I believe the notion of Euclidean space is valuable and worth retaining even if considered an spatial illusion generated by the presence of matter.
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re: time dilation.. and length issues
I guess it is more about "going over unity " and "going under unity" and the appropriate compensations needed to maintain invariance of light speed, when we consider things like time dilation and length contraction/expansion.
As an aside:
There are a few issues I have with Einsteins use of a transform that was originally designed for an "immobile aether" as originally proposed by Lorentz. The "immobile aether" being the universal frame of reference forbidden in Special relativity. I would replace the phrase "immobile aether" with simply "zero space" to remove the connotation of space having any substance what so ever. And claim that an invariant zero is in fact the universal frame of reference instead.

Essentially the transforms ultimately lead to a variable zero where by t=o is not the same as t=0' ( thus the relativity of simultaneity comes up) However what is often over looked is that it takes an absolute t= zero to generate the relative t= zeros and therefore falsifies the claim that t is always relative.
It is a complex argument but the gist of it is above and summed up below:

see transform validation test:

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whereby the zero result that is normally accepted to be present is no longer an absolute zero but a variable one, so contextually the transforms are logically challenged or invalid if the result is that zero is no longer invariant.

One of my biggest complaints against SRT it that I believe it considers zero to be a variable. This variability destroys the integrity of ALL mathematics as ALL values gain consistency only if zero is invariant.

 

As an indication of depth of my complaint:

Simplified:
Axiomatically,
x only has value of x because x - x = Absolute Zero.
But if zero is relative then the x is also.

 

I see significant value in what you have written (yet not necessarily agree at this time)
What I see also is what astute people often do and that is attempt to adapt their thinking to a science that is presumed to be correct instead of putting that science aside and seeking commonality as their thinking progresses.

Building a theory or hypothesis using potentially incorrect premises can only lead to even further entrenching those flawed premises.

The existence of evidenced Quantum Entanglement has the potential to seriously challenge the veracity of SRT so it would be inadvisable to use SRT to support hypothesis that ultimately will challenge SRT.
Suffice to say Quantum Entanglement IMO, opens entirely new approaches to space and time and thus SRT needs to be considered in isolation rather than as co-joined.

Due to the significant success of GR and SRT it pays not to underestimate how entrenched these two theories are in our universal paradigm. It is actually quite difficult to just let them go and look with unbiased eyes so to speak. IMO

 

This idea (about entanglement) does not in any manner "challenge" SRT, GRT, or the Standard Model, which is one (or three) of its strengths.

At PROPAGATION speeds lower than c, and dealing only with macroscopic observations of relative motion of matter, it agrees with SRT. Entanglement is not related to a propagation speed of either energy or matter. IT IS a speed related to the concepts of quantum identity, spin, and what it means for ideas about local vs. remote quantum entanglement. As I understand it, the "hidden variables" concept of Bell's Theorem are now also something that belongs in the distant past, so this is what replaces it.

The Higgs mechanism is the foundation of the Standard Model, even if GR's Principle of Equivalence is not. The latter has been confirmed experimentally to a much higher degree of accuracy than certain mathematical elements of QFT. PICK one. If it takes 20 fudge factors "free parameters" and a weeks worth of supercomputing time to approximate the mass of a proton from "first principles" in QFT, how useful is that?

Sooner or later, E=mc^2 means that YOU MUST investigate how it is that raw energy is bound into matter. If you do not, what you have is alchemy as a substitute for chemistry, or astrology as a substitute for astronomy. Another good reason, this actually did belong in "pseudoscience". If you are going to refer to something like alchemy or astrology as REAL science, then this is exactly where this idea belongs.

 

There is no need to let most parts of established science go.

SRT actually supports the idea of quantum entanglement because length contraction / space emergence means that the distance from here to the boundary of the known universe is not as far as you, being composed of matter, might otherwise think. Matter is energy that is bound, at rest with respect to other matter and persistent in time (virtually frozen in time on the scale of quantum events, in actual fact). Energy cannot be at rest, travels at or near c, and decoheres and/or dissipates according to the inverse square law unless it is bound in matter. As a result, it may not be possible to use entanglement over the range of cosmological scales without quantum error correction technology and repeaters applied to entanglement communications. But from the point of view of energy, a trip as far as it can go without dissipating takes no time at all, if it were even possible to consult or observe a timepiece at that speed. Previously we might have thought, nothing in this universe could possibly travel faster. In a sense, entanglement does, except that nothing made of matter or energy actually "travels" at anything like the speed with which entanglement travels.

Absolute time may be making a comeback in a vastly enhanced and different form. Absolute space is not back, and it is not back by a long shot. The luminiferous aether of absolute space and absolute time (which never existed in the first place) gets replaced by a more responsive omnitemporal field in which much slower matter and energy continuously interact. It won't be possible to refer to Euclidean geometry to describe gravitation ever again. The omnitemporal field has no inertia, spatial coordinates or an origin like much slower matter / energy does, and nothing like a wall you could nail jello to.

Note on the findings in China: It has not been ruled out that entanglement is instantaneous (likely). They only set a lower limit on the speed of entanglement OF PHOTONS at 10,000 times the speed of light. It would be different (a bit slower) with something that has mass and inertia, like electrons. This is very likely the "crack in the door" that will enable us to investigate the dynamics of entanglement. The discovery of the Higgs has already opened many such doors.

 

I can see we will be chasing each other down various rabbit holes with this discussion, which is ok by me..ok?
Just a few thoughts .. as I think on how to reply to your posts..

With regards to any perceived delays in communication that leads to the thought that QE (Quantum Entanglement) is some how time orientated ( eg 10000 *'c') could be applying to local "reaction" times and not actual communication times.

Return to absolute time and SRT is no longer valid in it's current form. The main thrust of SRT is to introduce relative time and to return to absolute time would be contrary to that.
SRT relies on a relative t=0 or a variant zero to function.

Zero is, in fact, invariant so IMO SRT is already seriously challenged regardless of QM.

QE, IMO, establishes that time is indeed essentially absolute. As to consider communication at vast distances of entangled particles even 10,000 * 'c' is way too slow and defeats the notion of "entanglement" to begin with. Maybe "stretched entanglement" or "worm hole" would be a better terms?

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Any notion of absolute time is unacceptable to SRT as SRT (relative time) is proposed as a universally declared state (with no exceptions)
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From my own understanding your need to cling to the term "travel" is part of the problem. Entangled communication does not travel as it is already there.
Any attempt to deliberately project a communication (energy) immediately alters the entanglement ( expands dimensions to 3 + time) and renders the entanglement typically neutral. (therefore undetectable) or alternatively demonstrates a "worm hole" or "tunneling" type effect.
In my lingo I call this the AT principle, in that there is no need for projection, as the info is already AT it's destination and source simultaneously. However the amount of any changes at source and destination may be relative due to local circumstances.
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One way to look at it is this:
Compare two types of sci fi intergalactic gateways:
1] A 2 dimensional type doorway. Where the distance between A and A' is zero. Instantaneous passage between source and destination. In fact one of your legs could be on one world and the other leg on another world.
2] A 4 dimensional worm hole where the distance between A and A' is determined by the effort or energy used to make the journey. ( any effort or energy applied expands the zero dimensions to >0)
Where by the person would have to travel with a time delta >0 to get to the destination.
The Chinese experiment that indicates 10000*'c' transit times between A and A' ,to me, means they are describing a 4d worm hole and not a 2 d doorway.
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Another thing to consider is that Quantum Entanglement is a naturally occurring phenomena. A connection that can be neutralized superficially simply by observing it directly and not statistically. (observer effect perhaps)
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As to the entanglement with the Black stone of Islam. ( spooky ) mentioned earlier to keep humans in the QM picture.

As I alluded to in an earlier post, in Humans it is the observation of entanglement with other humans that immediately alters the entanglement. The human mind (will) can not typically be controlled by another mind (will) unless it is done so in ignorance or blind trust. Hence the situation IMO in the Middle East and elsewhere is due to a "massive fraud" being perpetrated upon those reacting to the call.

Thus my raising conscious awareness of the possibility that the situation in the Middle East and elsewhere may be an exaggerated form of entanglement due to the focus of so many on one fixed point, exposes the fraud and would immediately alter that control being exerted.

 

A question that needs to be asked and properly determined with out hysterics is:
Does the existence of quantum entanglement as a natural phenomena mean that time is absolute universally?

(Absolute time does not exclude time dilation in fact it forces it to be actual.IMO )

 

condensed this post with above

 

For the purposes of an entanglement universe assume that there is a frame of reference without relative inertia and that there is nothing in between transmissions other than 'empty' space, although for the purposes of entanglement, all of the usual fields are there too,

From a point that is at the exact TEMPORAL center of three cosmologically spaced distant points, there is a source of entangled photons directing two streams of entangled photons in opposite directions, and directed precisely at each of the other two cosmologically distant points.

At some cosmological amount of time later, the two streams of entangled photons begin arriving at the other two cosmologically distant points.

Here's where the thought experiment gets interesting. One endpoint of the stream begins sending MORSE CODE to the opposite endpoint by synchronous detection of only a portion of the stream of entangled photons. INSTANTLY the other end may receive the message.

With me so far? What idea of SRT has been broken here? It still took cosmological time for entangled photons to reach each of the cosmologically distant points. There is no relative motion really because we are using PHOTONS, and from their perspective, no 'space' even exists between the cosmologically distant points. In other words, the faster than light entanglement ceases even to be 'spooky'.

You could watch the entanglement / disentanglement in slow motion passing through a coke bottle with any femtosecond camera. We have the technology. Much harder to use than slower light speed communications, but the intergalactic telegraph WORKS!!

I don't believe in Thorne's wormholes even in small measure. This is fantasy.

 

How would this idea retain light speed as being invariant?
How does this not violate the postulate that light speed is invariant for all observers?

• The Principle of Invariant Light Speed – "... light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity [speed] c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body." (from the preface).[1] That is, light in vacuum propagates with the speed c (a fixed constant, independent of direction) in at least one system of inertial coordinates (the "stationary system"), regardless of the state of motion of the light source.

src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity

 

We did not send any light, other than the streams of entangled photons. They DID travel, and continue to travel at the speed of light relative to an observer in any state of motion. We did send a message instantaneously, via quantum fields. Space is an illusion. The only dimension that exists is time, and for quantum fields, evidently time is not an obstacle to things like instantly sending information, entangling and binding the energy that binds an electron so that is identical to every other electron in the universe. EVERYWHERE. All at once. The only cheat of time's arrow there is in this universe, and it isn't really a cheat. You still can't communicate with the past. You CAN communicate one way with the future. A simple book or even this post can do that.

 

so you require absolute time to do this yes?