Spiritual Evolution

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by TruthSeeker, Apr 9, 2002.

  1. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    That Asscroft guy is my hero.

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    Very funny things pop out of his mouth. Really, it won't be long before the US president is declared the Pope of the American State Orthodox Christian Church. I can imagine USA kids joining the military and signing their names beside the question "Do you accept that God may require you to die for the cause?"
     
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  3. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    I'd be laughing too if he wasn't my Attorney General. As it stands, I feel more like bashing my head against a wall.

    Did you catch the part about being anointed with canola oil?

    Oh well, my country, right or left, or run by psychotic morons. And I can always flee to Canada if they start burning athiests....
     
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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    No...

    I know... but even this freedom has rules like...
    No personal attack, for example...

    Yes it's happening... you can't see it but some can...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
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  7. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    No. This is a free board, we can say almost anything we like, personal attacks included.

    I will note that you have attacked your opponents personally.

    Who? Since when are all of our religious posters being attacked?

    Attacking a position is one of the ways one tests its strength. There is room for respectfull disagreement, but when Jan, for instance, accuses athiests of being ipso facto immoral, we respond.
     
  8. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    4,888
    "Well, you actually almost do it... but you don't really kill, you just completly ignore... or attack...

    It's like if you were saying:
    "To attack in the name of atheism you would have to say something like; "we are going to attack everyone who is religious because we want them all to believe in no god." "

    Smooth. Tell us we can't disagree with you. The Stalinist/Nazi attitude flourishes again.

    I have never tried to force someone to believe in no god. You will notice I have yet to start a thread called 'The Scientific Proof Against God!'. I have yet to sit down and actually say that there is definite proof against a God. I personally have reasons to suggest there is no god, but I have not posted them here. You on the other hand come here telling us how we are all closed-minded and not smart enough for you. You tell us how great you are, how open-minded and brilliant you are. You compared your situation to Einstein (without actually knowing what einstein went through).


    Now you say there are limits to freedom of speech? So then I was right, you have read Mein Kempf and Stalin's works.


    "Well... it depends on your intentions..."

    Yes, that's right. It depends on your intentions. If I killed a bunch of people to try and scare other people into being atheist BECAUSE I AM AGAINST RELIGION, that would be killing in the name of atheism.

    Can you name an incident like that?

    The closest I can come is the communists in russia. They wanted to abolish religion but it was not because they were against religion, it was because they were for communism. And communism, it was theorized, could not work with religion. And even then it was only Stalin who wanted to kill people like that. The previous theory was simply to educate people in non-religious ways and religion would evaporate over time.


    "we are going to attack everyone who is religious because we want them all to believe in no god."

    If I disagreed with everything Xev said could she then assume that I was attacking her because she was a woman? If I disagreed with everything a black person said, could they assume I disagreed with them because they are black? Or is it possible that I simply think they're wrong?

    What you've basically just said is that I am a bigot against religious people. And who does personal attacks?
     
  9. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    Xev,

    I won't even answer that...
    You, yourself, said many times to Tyler and Cris not to be too rude with me, isn't? Be honest Xev... you did...

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    I do my best to defend myself without attacking anyone...

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    Does the thread "I'm Christian, flame me" has some significance to you...?


    Tyler,

    ...?

    First, I'm not telling you are not smart enough for me... I'm saying you are closed-minded though... I can't deny this fact...

    I'm still to be great someday... as you and many still may be... I'm not yet though, and that's why I present my ideas here, in order to develop them... that's why I'm open-minded...

    I compared my situation to Einstein only for the simple fact that I, with 14 years old, realized Relativity...
    I know what he went through... it's actually interesting how dislexic (like Einstein...) and other people with other diseases that makes the life harder are so good scientists, artists...

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    There's only one rule for speech: Respect. And, honestly, you don't follow it...

    It's possible... But there is something called prejudice...

    Pre-judge... is what you are doing with me, isn't...?

    ... You...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  10. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Yes, I did. I don't feel that you merit or need the sort of 'gloves off' treatment that I normally use. You are unusually sensitive to criticism, and such does little to aid debate.

    However, I do understand frustration.

    You will note that nobody actually flamed mcflytrap. I teased him, others welcomed him, but he decided not to stay.

    http://www.sciforums.com/t6356/s/thread.html

    Other Christians:

    Tony1 I trade insults with, but out of a sort of respect.
    Kalvin is an ass, whose sole contributions are insulting Tiassa
    Jan I argue with, but any 'flames' traded are his/her instigation.
    Blonde Cupid seldom contributes.
     
  11. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Xev,

    Yeah, I know...
    But my point was that Christians are usually "flamed" by skeptics, atheists or whatever they call themselves...

    Interesting fact...
    This Sunday, do you know what my pastor talked about at church?
    About the way some Christians talk about Christianism, in a "negative way" (his own words...)...

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    We are aware that there ARE "Christians" that talk like that as there are "Christians" that abuse children and "Christians" that fought in "Holy Wars"...

    Those are not real Christians. They claim themselves Christians but they don't understand the Essence of Christianism, that is Love and service.

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  12. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    10,943
    Nelson:

    You've yet to show that. All of my 'flaming' is retaliatory.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm quite a bitch. But I've never attacked anyone for being religious.

    Only for being stupid and insulting, which the religious generally are.

    Hence what you observe.
     
  13. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,415
    Xev, you mentioned Mein Kampf. I know a racist chap who owns the book, and he was showing it off once so I sat and read a few chapters here and there through the book, just to get a general idea of whether Hitler was coherent at all. I spent about half an hour reading little snippets. I must say, I can see how the book would appeal to dumb-arses quite easily. Hitler tends to start off each particular point reasonably, from a solid foundation, but then he takes it off into whacko territory while trying to make it seem perfectly normal. To a complete idiot, I can see how they might be taken along into whacko-land from the reasonable foundations of each point. No, I'm not going to post any bits of the book, I don't own it. But if anyone can get their hands on it, I think maybe it might provide some idea of the mentality of NAZI-wannabes.
     
  14. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,997
    Xev,

    Which leads to the question: When have people been killed in the name of athiesm?

    We can get to that point, but first I would like you to answer the question….please.

    ......what if you kill someone, say you did it in the name of atheism, but still held a belief if God?


    Love

    Jan Ardena.
     
  15. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Adam: That was probably Tyler. I've never read Mein Kampf.

    It would be just my luck to have some hot Jewish guy try to strike up a conversation when I was reading....

    In all seriousness, I ought to.

    Jan:

    You mean, a thiest kills in the name of athiesm? That's an interesting thought....

    That would be killing in the name of athiesm, providing that it was not some weird attempt to discredit athiesm.

    Did I explain that clearly?

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  16. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    4,888
    I mentioned Mein Kempf.

    First off.....bravo for trying to read it. Reading some genius/maniacs (I say thta because he walked the line thinly at times) yellings and ravings is VERY difficult. He didn't write the book, he yelled while another guy wrote.

    Second off, yes it is exactly the kind of thing a non-thinker would easily believe. But don't try and understand Hitler's rise to power and acts through Mein Kempf. There is sooooooooooo much mroe behind it. Did you know both Canada and U.S. could have become fascist easily? IT was a logical and attractive idea at the time.
     
  17. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    "Well, you actually almost do it... but you don't really kill, you just completly ignore... or attack...

    It's like if you were saying:
    "To attack in the name of atheism you would have to say something like; "we are going to attack everyone who is religious because we want them all to believe in no god." "

    Here you're basically saying you think I am a bigot because I argue with religious people. You think I argue with you simply because you're religious. Well, no, I argue with you simply because I think you're wrong. If you happen to be religious that doesn't make me a bigot for argueing with you. Do you disagree with me simply because I'm atheist? No, you argue with me simply because you think I'm wrong. That doesn't make you bigot against atheism. Same with me.

    "Does the thread "I'm Christian, flame me" has some significance to you...?"

    I attack people who I think make stupid comments or completely ignore the point of a debate or don't debate period when they think they are. This includes you........and I don't think anyone else.

    "We are aware that there ARE "Christians" that talk like that as there are "Christians" that abuse children and "Christians" that fought in "Holy Wars"...

    Those are not real Christians. They claim themselves Christians but they don't understand the Essence of Christianism, that is Love and service."

    And that's always been. People have always done what you consider 'not' their religion (while they consider it exactly the opposite), and always will. That's one reason I'm against religion.

    In theory Communism works perfectly. In theory.
    Same with religion.


    "I'm still to be great someday... as you and many still may be..."

    Care to place a wager?


    "I compared my situation to Einstein only for the simple fact that I, with 14 years old, realized Relativity...
    I know what he went through... it's actually interesting how dislexic (like Einstein...) and other people with other diseases that makes the life harder are so good scientists, artists..."

    I think we all realized relativety before we learnt the theory. Don't go thinking that was something supersmart.

    When I started reading Neitzsche I repeatadly slammed down the book and said 'That's what I said!!!' That doesn't mean I consider myself intelligent.

    How about this. When I was 11 they told me I had a learning disability that would stop me from ever graduating highschool. Two months later our school had it's routine gifted testing (for all in that grade). I scored highest on the test and was urged by principle and teacher into switching to private school for years. The doctors who say I have a huge learning disability still say I do to this day.


    "There's only one rule for speech: Respect. And, honestly, you don't follow it..."

    Here you MUST be able to see how much like Hitler and Stalin you are, right? I am a man not driven on morals very often (more on logic usually), but the one I will always have is that Freedom of Speech is A FREEDOM. And NOT one that YOU or anyone else has the power to take away from me. If I want to stand up and yell Nazi slogans in the middle of the street, you better damn well let me. (Note: I am jewish and would obviously never do this). Always remember; they punished people who thought progressively in social issues long ago (McCarthy trials, feminism, racism). We said that was horrible. Now are we allowed to do it back to them (the anti-feminists, racists..)? To me, that makes us as bad as them.


    "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If I disagreed with everything Xev said could she then assume that I was attacking her because she was a woman? If I disagreed with everything a black person said, could they assume I disagreed with them because they are black? Or is it possible that I simply think they're wrong?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    It's possible... But there is something called prejudice...

    Pre-judge... is what you are doing with me, isn't...?"

    Prove to me I'm a bigot. I have always given you quotes to prove what I say about you. Now i'm asking for one thing which makes me a bigot. If you say it's because I always disagree with you, that proves nothing. It could be that you're always wrong. Or that I'm always wrong. Or that each of us is wrong some of the time.


    '... that's why I'm open-minded..."

    If you're developing ideas, you've yet to do so. Or I've yet to seem proof of that. You have never once changed your beleifs. You have never once admitted you were wrong. You have never once accepted the fact that you may be wrong.

    That is both ego and closed mindedness.
     
  18. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Tyler,

    Ignore... debate...?
    Who really ignore debate...?

    I agree. But it's possible to apply it well...

    Maybe because I experienced what i say and I still experience them each day more and more...

    Btw... what's a "bigot"...?

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  19. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,188
    Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
     

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